Madeira : Palms and trees

[Pargomad]

Hello everyone!

I’m back here on the forum after two or three years offline (I just made some appearances to look at the updates of Cluster’s famous topic about Madeiran coconut trees). First, I want to apologize to all the viewers and followers of my thread about the Madeiran palm diversity for my long absence. These last years I’ve dedicated myself to my working and personal life and to other passions of mine. However, I’ve decided to carry on my descriptive work about the palm (and some other species) diversity of the Madeiran archipelago and for that, let me just inform you that, since I live the greater part of the year in Switzerland, my “physical” knowledge about plants is very limited. In other words, don’t ask me anything about gardening, because I won’t be able to answer you in the best possible way. Therefore, my thread is just a descriptive compilation of palms and other species that grow or can be grown in these islands. For that, I based myself on some scientific articles, also on some statements made here on the forum, and, finally, on my personal observations I made during my not so common personal trips I made there.

Thus, I’m resuming this thread by answering Rafael’s question about his uncertainty concerning the growth of some endemic species outside the islands. Yes, from what I know, some species can be grown in Mediterranean countries like for example Portugal. I guess the most popular Madeiran or Macaronesian, to say it better, species planted on those gardens are the Dracaena draco, you can see many well-preserved exemplars in many parks in Lisbon. I also remember seeing at some point some Laurissilva species growing in botanical gardens in Lisbon, but I guess they need a lot of water during the hot and dry Portuguese summer.

To get back to the main subject, I wanted to carry out some updates about the previous posts for the next weeks. I’ll start with the first palm I described here three years ago: Phoenix Canariensis, or as it is commonly known: The Canary Island date palm. As you may know, Southern Europe and other locations around the globe have been devasted by a plague commonly known as the red weevil palm. I regret to inform you that this pest has literally killed nearly all the oldest exemplars on the main island. Until more than a decade ago, the Canary Island date palm was by far the most visible and exposed palm tree on the island. Old or even centenary exemplars proliferated in many Quintas, botanical gardens and public places on the island. Some authors two decades ago considered the palm naturalized on the island as in many cases it escaped the gardens to the wild. You can still certify this massive presence in the landscapes of Funchal on Google Street View (the photos date from November/December 2009).

Here's the link on google maps of a road in Funchal, near the Quinta Magnolia. As you see, there were around twenty (or even more) magnificent exemplars in 2009. Nowadays, all the Canary Island date palms you can see on the photo are dead.

https://www.google.ch/maps/@32.6452734,-16.9246883,3a,75y,63.4h,89.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy_R7AmgiiwEhmyMzH7ScMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=fr

You'll find in these links some palms that "escaped to the wild" from private gardens. At the present time, it is quite likely that they are dead, killed by the red palm weevil. 

https://www.google.ch/maps/@32.6457793,-16.8360575,3a,89.9y,168.76h,85.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSQOPGVx1iwDlEydH8vzZIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=fr

https://www.google.ch/maps/@32.6464111,-16.8715911,3a,28.8y,248.75h,77.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szlS6qCQAsmtvNifBIrre2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=fr

Today, regrettably, practically all the tallest exemplars are dead, leaving with them an emptiness in the horizon of many locations like Funchal, once defined by these high silhouettes standing out from the banana plantations or the Madeiran gardens. The Ponta de São Lourenço and Porto Santo island seem to be the only two locations the red weevil palm hasn’t affected (apparently) as we can still appreciate the presence of a considerable number of palms in those areas. Meanwhile, in Funchal for example, only a few tall and old exemplars survive in the parks and gardens. There are still young exemplars growing on the island, but even the medium size ones are being attacked by this plague nowadays.

Now, with this unfortunate event, we need to decide which palm is the most commonly planted on the island now that the Canary Island date palm is slowly agonizing. I’m interested on seeing what you fellows think. Just tell me on the comments below! Meanwhile, I wish you all a great week !

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

RPW 

They killed lots of palms here too, we had thousands of naturalised CIDPs just in the province of Alicante and they all died, plus 90% of the private and 95% of the public ones. 

It's a pity to see it arrived even on Madeira. I hope these demon bugs are already dead rather than attacking any other species.

[Stelios]

I was recently in Madeira with my family and I would say the most commonly planted in all the parts of the island is Archontophoenix followed very close by Kentias. Both palms are amazing and make the island look very tropical. On Porto Santo CIDP still dominates.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Is that a giant encephalartos species (gratus) in that park???

[Pargomad]

8 hours ago, Alicante said:

RPW 

They killed lots of palms here too, we had thousands of naturalised CIDPs just in the province of Alicante and they all died, plus 90% of the private and 95% of the public ones. 

It's a pity to see it arrived even on Madeira. I hope these demon bugs are already dead rather than attacking any other species.

Portugal is in the same situation as Spain! I would even say worse! As a matter of fact, in Portugal, the most common palm was the CDIP. Some years ago, you could see lots of them in many locations from the extreme northwest of the country to the Algarve. Lisbon was no exception to this rule as there were, from what I remember, thousands of them growing in public places, parks, private gardens or even in the wild. Within only 10 years, the CDIP population has decreased so dramatically that, nowadays, you are more likely to see poplars in the city than an old CDIP of 15 m. high. This decrease also affected the Portuguese landscape as the Phoenix Canariensis were the most common palm in the country.

In contrast with Spain, Portugal didn't show (until today) any interest for the other popular species of the same family: Phoenix Dactylifera. Spaniards use the second palm in public and private landscaping whereas the Portuguese were more likely to plant the CDIP in the same situations. As we know, the CDIP is way more affected by the red weevil palm than the date palm, so, consequently, you'll see more palms in Spanish cities than in Portugal as nearly all the CDIP are dead and since they were the most common and visible palm in the country, a Portuguese public avenue near the beach will seem empty of palms than the Spaniards' with their several rows of date palms. The CDIP have represented for many years the Portuguese palm landscape and, as they are killed by this pest, the Portuguese landscape is losing more and more palms every day. Meanwhile, in Spain, since they literally plant palms everywhere (mainly in coastal cities), the landscape is, therefore, less affected than in Portugal, hence the worse situation for the Portuguese side.

 

8 hours ago, Stelios said:

I was recently in Madeira with my family and I would say the most commonly planted in all the parts of the island is Archontophoenix followed very close by Kentias. Both palms are amazing and make the island look very tropical. On Porto Santo CIDP still dominates.

I agree with you! The King palm (Archontophoenix cunninghamiana) is an omnipresent species on the island as it is planted in almost every private gardens, public places or parks, from the sunny coastal locations to the foggy altitudes. Its tropical look must have played a role concerning its popularity since, for a non-expert, it resembles a coconut tree.

I also think that the Kentia palm (Howea forsteriana) and the Mexican fan palm (Washingtonia robusta) are likely to take the first position of the most common palms of Madeira. The first one is very common because of the same reasons as the King palm, and the second one because it’s a palm that grows easily with minimum care in Madeira.

[Pargomad]

56 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Is that a giant encephalartos species (gratus) in that park???

I'm not familiar with the cycads, but, according to a phytogeographic study of the gardens and parks of Funchal by Raimundo Quintal, the exemplar of the municipal garden of Funchal might be a Modjadji's cycad (Encephalartos transvenosus).

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Yepp that's probably it. 

[Cluster]

It is hard to say, private gardens have a lot of King palms, public gardens seem to have some Kentias, but Royals are also becoming  more and more common. I still think there are many CIDP too, but usually not big as it has been said!

[Pargomad]

12 hours ago, Cluster said:

It is hard to say, private gardens have a lot of King palms, public gardens seem to have some Kentias, but Royals are also becoming  more and more common. I still think there are many CIDP too, but usually not big as it has been said!

The thing with the Royal palms is that they're becoming significantly more common only in public places or in hotels. You can see them growing in public avenues (Avenida do mar, Estrada monumental, Funchal; Rua dos dragoeiros, Ribeira Brava) or in hotels (The garden of the New Savoy Hotel has been ornamented with Royal palms imported from Southern Spain).

 

Regarding the private gardens, you won’t see them as much as the King palms or the Kentias and, if you look further, nor in public parks. In 2009, in the study mentioned above by Raimundo Quintal, there were only 6 Royal palms in the 33 investigated parks in Funchal.

However, you were right to emphasize the growing popularity of this palm as we can admit today that it is one of the most common palms on the island (in contrast with a decade ago). I also believe that in the next years it might catch up the Kentias and the King palms.  

Concerning the CDIP, I agree with you, there is still a significative number growing on the island, however, the clear majority reaches a small or a medium size and they’re condemned as nobody, until now, has managed to control this plague. The CDIP is still part of the most common palms on the island, but we can’t deny that it lost its first position of the most planted palm in Madeira.

(PS: In the phytogeographic study mentioned above, Quintal also attests the presence of 2 coconut palms in the garden of the Tecnopólo in Funchal  )

[palmfriend]

A very interesting and educating thread! Thank you very much!

The images are very nice - my absolute favorite is ...

..this one. Just beautiful! 

Please keep the images coming!

Best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

 

 

[Cluster]

Kevin those look to me like Florida Royals, not like the fat ones (the Cuban) we have all over the island, supposedly the Florida are a bit more cold hardy? Not that it matters on the island. Or perhaps South Spain makes them look thinner. 

I mean compare it to the one Stelios pictures on the Porto Santo thread:

 

It is so fat it wants to be a bottle palm:)

I really need to pay a visit to the Tecnopólo then, can't let any coconut escape from my sight:D

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Cluster

[Stelios]

On the island I saw also some veitchia (I think Arecina) and Chambeyronia macrocarpa. I believe these two are also becoming more popular lately. I also saw in one private garden while driving towards Santana some big rhopalostylis sapida but I couldn't take a photo. Here are only a few of the palms that I saw there. Chambeyronia, veitchia, christmas palm, bismarckia and trachycarpus. The list is long what could be grown there including coconuts.

[Stelios]

Tree ferns are also very popular there. They grow very successful and beautiful. Here are some photos with some cycas and Ravenala.

[Cluster]

Hey Stelios!,

I have always wondered  which palms are in the 4th picture! They look awesome, are those the Veitchia? I swear if I lived in a warm zone there I would try something like lipstick just for science, however those need water all the time so that would be tough when not being there, unless sprinkles work.

 

[Stelios]

24 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Hey Stelios!,

I have always wondered  which palms are in the 4th picture! They look awesome, are those the Veitchia? I swear if I lived in a warm zone there I would try something like lipstick just for science, however those need water all the time so that would be tough when not being there, unless sprinkles work.

 

Hi Pedro

Yes. These palms should be veitchia arecina. Joannis is a bit more sensitive but could also grow on the island. I also have 4 small arecina seedlings since summer protected near the big coconut and so far they are doing good.

I could never tell somebody not to try any palm but a lipstick on Madeira would need protection. The year before, when we visited Miami I only saw them in Fairchild indoor garden. It's a very challenging sensitive palm but just for the science maybe somebody will try it. With some protection and good watering you never know!

There many more palms they should try on the island.

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

17 hours ago, Pargomad said:

Portugal is in the same situation as Spain! I would even say worse! As a matter of fact, in Portugal, the most common palm was the CDIP. Some years ago, you could see lots of them in many locations from the extreme northwest of the country to the Algarve. Lisbon was no exception to this rule as there were, from what I remember, thousands of them growing in public places, parks, private gardens or even in the wild. Within only 10 years, the CDIP population has decreased so dramatically that, nowadays, you are more likely to see poplars in the city than an old CDIP of 15 m. high. This decrease also affected the Portuguese landscape as the Phoenix Canariensis were the most common palm in the country.

 

In contrast with Spain, Portugal didn't show (until today) any interest for the other popular species of the same family: Phoenix Dactylifera. Spaniards use the second palm in public and private landscaping whereas the Portuguese were more likely to plant the CDIP in the same situations. As we know, the CDIP is way more affected by the red weevil palm than the date palm, so, consequently, you'll see more palms in Spanish cities than in Portugal as nearly all the CDIP are dead and since they were the most common and visible palm in the country, a Portuguese public avenue near the beach will seem empty of palms than the Spaniards' with their several rows of date palms. The CDIP have represented for many years the Portuguese palm landscape and, as they are killed by this pest, the Portuguese landscape is losing more and more palms every day. Meanwhile, in Spain, since they literally plant palms everywhere (mainly in coastal cities), the landscape is, therefore, less affected than in Portugal, hence the worse situation for the Portuguese side.

Also lots of Washingtonia Robusta as well here, in my zone I can say practically we have more of these than we have Phoenix species. Still the RPW disease did a lot of damage here, but not only here but across the whole country. Thankfully the Oceanic north of Spain seems with low damage, but still noticeable, depends also on the part. 

Palms in Spain are very common like in more than half of the country. Even Madrid got it's fair share of palms, I have seen hundreds of phoenixes and washingtonias (more phoenixes) in Madrid for example, in the heart of the Iberian Peninsula. The biggest palm collections in Spain are in Elche and Sevilla, both at a considerable distance from the coast. Of course Málaga does have the biggest number of species but I mean a collection of palms itself, Elche for example got the 2nd or 3rd biggest palm collection worldwide (Palmeral de Elche) which is mainly planted by P.Dactylfera, there has been a serious investigation and cientifical research in the area of Elche to protect the palmeral from the RPW, in fact they found in 2016 an effective cure to erradicate RPW from a damaged palm but it's expensive and hard to apply. They did some effective prevention on the city of Elche, thankfully.

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

3 hours ago, Cluster said:

Kevin those look to me like Florida Royals, not like the fat ones (the Cuban) we have all over the island, supposedly the Florida are a bit more cold hardy? Not that it matters on the island. Or perhaps South Spain makes them look thinner. 

I mean compare it to the one Stelios pictures on the Porto Santo thread:

Probably other species of palms. Roystoneas in southern Spain are as fat as a barrel. 

 

About the Veitchia thing I think all species should grow fine in Madeira. Málaga has lots of Veitchias planted in streets and parks (Merilli and Arencina)

Edited March 6, 2018 by Alicante

[Cluster]

Heya Adam,

Yes most likely the ones imported are Florida Royals and not Cuban Royals:p. 

[Cluster]

6 hours ago, Stelios said:

Hi Pedro

Yes. These palms should be veitchia arecina. Joannis is a bit more sensitive but could also grow on the island. I also have 4 small arecina seedlings since summer protected near the big coconut and so far they are doing good.

I could never tell somebody not to try any palm but a lipstick on Madeira would need protection. The year before, when we visited Miami I only saw them in Fairchild indoor garden. It's a very challenging sensitive palm but just for the science maybe somebody will try it. With some protection and good watering you never know!

There many more palms they should try on the island.

I am not sure it would work either, but I know something, that there is a lot less information about this palm than there is about coconuts. There are also some threads here and there where they have survived in ground (Hollywood Florida) and the Keys in December 2010 cold spells. I have also learned about people trying to grow them in northern coast of the Canary islands, however the outcome was not clear. I know there is at least one guy living in the not warmest place of Tenerife with one fully unprotected and doing fine for years, at least last I have heard of it. 

If it does not work it does not work, but seeds are cheap to try, I also find amazing your coconuts are still alive:).

It would be great for science because not much is known about them, I know some have survived 4.5 C (40 F) and a bit less, though they are way more stressed than a coconut reaching the 40s. I am not sure they are demanding of highs as much or even more than a coconut or if they simply hate low lows (say below 45 f) which is common in south Florida. If the latter is true, then maybe there is a chance in the zones with the highest lows, I would hazard Jardim do Mar, Madalena or Paul could be that zone. For highs Madalena and Paul are probably a bit higher, but the lows of Jardim might be higher as it is a "mini peninsula" surrounded by water. During this year the lowest low of Funchal observatory was 10.9 C (51.2 F), while Porto Moniz in the north only got down to 12 C (53.6 F), it is at a lower elevation, closer to the sea. I believe any of those locations I mentioned can match or surpass Porto Moniz as they are in the south, they will also have way higher highs and less wind, most of the time anyway. Another zone worth mentioning is Faja dos Padres(but it is private), low elevation downtown Funchal (old town) or west Funchal near the beach area(sunnier). Anyway if they need higher highs than coconuts with greater lows, than we are in trouble:P

I think a great problem for this experiment is that you would need someone dedicated to water the palm all year round and I can't be that person nor do I have these climates. However I could try one in the back of our garden in a more sheltered spot to make up for our high elevation of 125 m (410.10) in a windy zone, again just for science I won't be able to baby sit her, maybe a sprinkle.

Anyway, Canary Islands can grow many things Florida can't, but cocos might not look as good there in the Canaries for example. Canary islands can grow Theobroma Cacao and Breadfruit with no problems at all, you can't say that even in Miami. The climates are simply different and while Florida might be warm 99% of the times, that 1% ruins a lot of tropicals, whereas Canary Islands are always cooler but stable and way warmer cold spells, if you can even call them that. Madeira should be a cooler Canary Island so the science is even more fun there, because we already know Canary Islands can grow lipstick.

PS: If Kevin wants I post the Canary Island lipstick:)

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Cluster

[Stelios]

Hi Pedro

There is a hybrid lipstick palm as I remember from another topic that is hardier and has some color too. That might work for Madeira.

There are also other colourful palms that they could try in Madeira. These are photos which I took in Puerto de la Cruz Botanical garden in Tenerife. 1st is areca vestiaria and 2nd pinanga caesia. They should grow in Madeira.

[Pargomad]

21 hours ago, palmfriend said:

A very interesting and educating thread! Thank you very much!

The images are very nice - my absolute favorite is ...

..this one. Just beautiful! 

Please keep the images coming!

Best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

 

 

Thank you palmfriend ! :)

[Pargomad]

I'm glad to see that this thread interests you! I'll try to answer you all in the best possible way. 

Cluster, I don't know if those Royals are Cuban or Floridian, nor if their skinny aspect is normal. The only thing I can assure you, from what I read, is that they were imported from Southern Spain. Most of the palm importations on the island come from Southern Spain. About their skinny aspect, I know that the Royals in the Avenida do mar or in the Estrada monumental were as skinny as the exemplars in the Hotel Savoy Palace when they were first planted. With the years, they gain mass and, in some cases, can resemble a bottle palm. 

Concerning the lipstick palm, of course you can post a picture of it in here. I know very little about this species and I'm very interested in reading your thoughts about it. 

 

Alicante, I'm glad you mentioned the great palm grove of Elche! This is a very interesting place since this palm grove is still using the same irrigation system built by the Moors (who probably established this palm garden) since they "invaded" the Iberian Peninsula. Apart from the European fan palm (Chamaerops humilis), the date palm might be the first imported palm in the Iberian Peninsula (probably in the 5th century by the Carthaginians).

 

Stelios, I'm glad you posted some photos of your recent vacation on the island! Yes, the flamethrower palm (Chambeyronia macrocarpa) is also very popular, however, still not as popular as the King palms or the Kentias. The Montgomery palm (Veitchia arecina) is actually very rare, I personally have never seen a single exemplar with my own eyes. The other species, Veitchia or Adonidia merrillii is a bit more common or less rare (to say it better). The only exemplars I know can be seen in Funchal, in Hotels, private gardens or in this case in a parking lot. The Chinese windmill palm (Trachycarpus fortunei) is more common than the two-previous species and represent no challenge and no interest as they can grow in cold climates like here in Switzerland. Madeirans are completely unaware of what they plant in their gardens, which explains their foolish inclination to plant cold temperate trees by the sea, and after that, you see them complaining as an oak tree falls and kills people because it couldn't bare the nearly tropical temperatures and the absence of cold… but this is another subject.   

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Pargomad

[Kris]

Gentlemen fantastic visuals... Iam speechless "lovely palms"...

Thanks and love,

Kris.

 

[Stelios]

15 hours ago, Pargomad said:

Stelios, I'm glad you posted some photos of your recent vacation on the island! Yes, the flamethrower palm (Chambeyronia macrocarpa) is also very popular, however, still not as popular as the King palms or the Kentias. The Montgomery palm (Veitchia arecina) is actually very rare, I personally have never seen a single exemplar with my own eyes. The other species, Veitchia or Adonidia merrillii is a bit more common or less rare (to say it better). The only exemplars I know can be seen in Funchal, in Hotels, private gardens or in this case in a parking lot. The Chinese windmill palm (Trachycarpus fortunei) is more common than the two-previous species and represent no challenge and no interest as they can grow in cold climates like here in Switzerland. Madeirans are completely unaware of what they plant in their gardens, which explains their foolish inclination to plant cold temperate trees by the sea, and after that, you see them complaining as an oak tree falls and kills people because it couldn't bare the nearly tropical temperatures and the absence of cold… but this is another subject.   

 

I agree with you Kevin. King palms and kentias are beautiful but the climate there is good for many other palms.

[The Germinator]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2015‎ ‎4‎:‎44‎:‎02‎, Palmaceae said:

 

Looks to me there are guards to keep squirrels (or like animals as I am not sure they have squirrels there) from climbing the palms?

I believe it is for rodent control. Keeps rats from nesting in the crown chomping on fruit and seed.

[Cluster]

On 3/7/2018, 5:38:54, Stelios said:

Hi Pedro

There is a hybrid lipstick palm as I remember from another topic that is hardier and has some color too. That might work for Madeira.

There are also other colourful palms that they could try in Madeira. These are photos which I took in Puerto de la Cruz Botanical garden in Tenerife. 1st is areca vestiaria and 2nd pinanga caesia. They should grow in Madeira.

Hey Stelios,

I know of the Hybrid and it is ok as well, but I do not think I could keep it either, those plants look like water plants and if you do not have a a pond or something you will be in trouble if you are not there constantly watering. Imagine a day with 37 C with Sahara winds and 6% humidity, then what? I do like them, but I much prefer coconuts, in any case I would like to try to grown a pure lipstick just for the achievement, because the water needs would make it too much of an issue to keep it long term. 

The user that I followed is called Migacebo in another forum, lives in a more inland part of Gran Canaria called Ingenio, from the map around 3 km from the sea, I have also heard at some medium elevation (but not as sure about this one).

The palm was planted in September 2k8:

 

Supposedly he had a cold Autumn, with temps reaching 14 c (57 F) sometimes.

Then they had one of the coldest winters in 2k9, Gran Canaria airport (which I believe to have slightly warmer lows than Ingenio, being at the sea) reached 11 C low (51.8 F) .

Still the plant did fine after a very cold Autumn and February, mid march 2k9:

 

The last picture I saw was in 2k10:

 

He says somewhere that he did not find it as delicate as their reputation says, but that he keeps her always watered even in the winter.

Along the lines, maybe they do not enjoy much wind.

That is all I know and that some Bajamar examples got down to 8 C in a northern zone of Tenerife and survived but look half dead, do not know the final outcome.

 

With all that said, I think something in the adorable village of Jardim do Mar In a sheltered zone from the wind (the zone is not very windy by default, but can be sometimes, like now with the tropical storm, although it also is seeing 18 C (64 F) lows currently ...), might have a chance in the hands of an expert grower and if it does not work, it is good science. I do not believe Jardim do Mar even saw 12 C this year as that was the lowest Porto Moniz recorded in the north at similar elevation (both western parts of the island but Jardim is in the south, usually higher lows in the western zones of the island compared to Funchal). 

Don't get me wrong I do not put my hands on fire that it would survive, there is a big chance it won't, but the data I have suggests survival seems at least in the realms of a possibility more so than Sydney coconuts if you ask me, my main concern is that Jardim while usually sunnier than Funchal, is not nearly as sunny as Gran Canaria, how much it needs, is not known, but he did mention that winter and/or autumn were very cloudy too. The Bajamar area, which sees a lot less sun and cooler (reached 8 C that year), did have some sort of success, although the final outcome was not clear, it is known that they were really doing good till the cold event in Bajamar though (late February).

PS: The Paul do Mar house with private coconuts could also try some for fun, the garden seems well cared and always green:)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Cluster

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

1 hour ago, Cluster said:

Hey Stelios,

I know of the Hybrid and it is ok as well, but I do not think I could keep it either, those plants look like water plants and if you do not have a a pond or something you will be in trouble if you are not there constantly watering. Imagine a day with 37 C with Sahara winds and 6% humidity, then what? I do like them, but I much prefer coconuts, in any case I would like to try to grown a pure lipstick just for the achievement, because the water needs would make it too much of an issue to keep it long term. 

The user that I followed is called Migacebo in another forum, lives in a more inland part of Gran Canaria called Ingenio, from the map around 3 km from the sea, I have also heard at some medium elevation (but not as sure about this one).

The palm was planted in September 2k8:

 

Supposedly he had a cold Autumn, with temps reaching 14 c (57 F) sometimes.

Then they had one of the coldest winters in 2k9, Gran Canaria airport (which I believe to have slightly warmer lows than Ingenio, being at the sea) reached 11 C low (51.8 F) .

Still the plant did fine after a very cold Autumn and February, mid march 2k9:

 

The last picture I saw was in 2k10:

 

He says somewhere that he did not find it as delicate as their reputation says, but that he keeps her always watered even in the winter.

Along the lines, maybe they do not enjoy much wind.

That is all I know and that some Bajamar examples got down to 8 C in a northern zone of Tenerife and survived but look half dead, do not know the final outcome.

 

With all that said, I think something in the adorable village of Jardim do Mar In a sheltered zone from the wind (the zone is not very windy by default, but can be sometimes, like now with the tropical storm, although it also is seeing 18 C (64 F) lows currently ...), might have a chance in the hands of an expert grower and if it does not work, it is good science. I do not believe Jardim do Mar even saw 12 C this year as that was the lowest Porto Moniz recorded in the north at similar elevation (both western parts of the island but Jardim is in the south, usually higher lows in the western zones of the island compared to Funchal). 

Don't get me wrong I do not put my hands on fire that it would survive, there is a big chance it won't, but the data I have suggests survival seems at least in the realms of a possibility more so than Sydney coconuts if you ask me, my main concern is that Jardim while usually sunnier than Funchal, is not nearly as sunny as Gran Canaria, how much it needs, is not known, but he did mention that winter and/or autumn were very cloudy too. The Bajamar area, which sees a lot less sun and cooler (reached 8 C that year), did have some sort of success, although the final outcome was not clear, it is known that they were really doing good till the cold event in Bajamar though (late February).

PS: The Paul do Mar house with private coconuts could also try some for fun, the garden seems well cared and always green:)

 

 

 

 

 

Well, as you're talking about the Canaries I would like to apport something. I also know that lipstick thread, someone said (not the palms owner) "possibily Bajamar went down to 8C" and in another post say "8-10C" but since Bajamar has no AEMET station I don't know what to think. Maybe a bit inland at a bit of altitude could be, just as you say, who knows. About the lipsticks yes there are lipsticks on the Canaries, in the palmetum and also in private gardens, like Migacebo.

I've read that the ones in Bajamar were seriously damaged in 2009 but survived. Take account that what kills a lipstick is constant coolish lows with not enough warm highs. The Internet says that lipsticks can take brief 35-40F temps (1.6-4.4C) but they hate cloudy, too mild days with not enough warm rather than sporadical lows under 10C. That year (2009) was very cold for Canarian standards, the north of Tenerife had many 18-19C highs and 13-14C lows during February, Santa Cruz had a low of 12.1C. You'd expect 21C highs and 15C lows as that's probably the average near the zone of Bajamar. 21.2/15.4 is the average during the coldest month in Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz is in the very north of Tenerife too, it's a nice indicator as the climate is very mild and warm.

For example this February as you know was pretty cold for Macaronesian standards (both in Madeira and the majority of the Canaries), that would be a dead end for a lipstick in Madeira, with even some damage to them in the north of the Canaries. Maybe in the warmest spots of Madeira such as Ponta do Sol, they can grow the hybrid lipstick. Probably if grows without any harsher winter like in this year, then can take one with damage but without dying. And I also agree I see a bigger possibility on these than a long term coconut in Sydney. All what can I say is go for it! You will never know something until you won't try it.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Alicante

[Cluster]

Hello Adam,

I think I read it somewhere there, that the location was a bit higher in Bajamar and not the coast, hence why it got such low temperatures, Carlo mentioned that the place is nowhere like the southern side. In anyway I can only say what he said and if they saw 8 C, then that is what I am reporting.

I am not convinced the highs requirement are higher than cocos, the lows seem to be more demanding but I have no evidence of the highs. The people in the equator say cocos are more sissy as they stop producing fruit at way lower elevations than lipstick. In the equator you can have very stable lows and stable highs when you go up in altitude, but cocos will stop fruiting way before lipstick in such stable climates.

Now look at Miami 2010, 12 days in a row with temperatures at or below 8C as lows (46.5 F) with many highs below 17 C (62.5 F). From those 12 days the worst was a max of 14 C (57.2 f) with low of 4 c (39.2) then 2  days in a row where the first had a low of 2 C (35.6 F) max 16.1 (61 F) and the other with a low of 2 C (35.6 F) and a max of 9 C (48.2). Of course many of them died, but some survived and that is impressive.

On the south side of Madeira and especially southwest, this would never happen, both max and lows, far from it.That is why different climates have different challenges. The cocos look better in south Florida than in the Canaries, but I put my hands on fire that it will be easier to grow a lipstick in the Canaries than south Florida. Madeira shares more with Canaries than Florida and thus, I always look with more attention what might be possible based on Canaries info.

The experiment would be hard to do though, as Migacebo explained every day before work he watered the lipstick with 5 liters of water even in the winter, that might explain his success. Just my thoughts

Edited March 9, 2018 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Hello everyone!

Today I want to share with you all a list I’ve established over the last years about the variety of palms that grow or can be grown on Madeira island. For that, I based myself on some scientific articles (principally the phytogeographic study mentioned on this thread), also on some statements made here on the forum, and, finally, on my personal observations I made during my personal trips there or of some photos I saw on the internet. I would like to make clear that it is a non-exhaustive list and if you have any useful addition or comment, don't hesitate and tell me on the comments below ! 

Here is the list (in alphabetical order):

- Acoelorraphe wrightii

- Adonidia merrilli

- Acrocomia aculeate

- Allagoptera arenaria

- Archontophoenix alexandrae

- Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

- Areca catechu

- Arenga engleri

- Bismarckia nobilis

- Brahea armata

- Brahea dulcis

- Butia capitata

- Caryota maxima

- Caryota mitis

- Caryota urens

- Chambeyronia macrocarpa

- Chamaedora costaricana

- Chamaedorea elegans

- Chamaedora erupens

- Chamaerops humilis

- Cocos nucifera

- Copernicia alba

- Dypsis decaryi

- Dypsis lutescens

- Howea belmoreana

- Howea forsteriana

- Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

- Hyophorbe verschaffeltii

- Jubaea chilensis

- Latania lontaroides

- Livistona australis

- Livistona chinensis

- Livistona mariae

- Livistona saribus

- Phoenix canariensis

- Phoenix dactylifera

- Phoenix reclinata

- Phoenix roebelenii

- Polyandrococos caudescens

- Ptychosperma elegans

- Ptychosperma macarthurii

- Ravenea rivularis

- Rhapis excelsa

- Roystonea oleracea

- Roystonea Regia

- Sabal mauritiiformis

- Sabal mexicana

- Sabal minor

- Sabal palmetto

- Sabal uresana

- Serenoa repens

- Syagrus botryophora

- Syagrus romanzoffiana

- Trachycarpus fortune

- Trithrinax brasiliensis

- Veitchia arecina

- Wallichia caryotoides

- Washingtonia filifera

- Washingtonia robusta

- Wodyetia bifurcata

[Stelios]

Rhopalostylis sapida. Too bad I couldn't take photos from this private garden cause I was driving. 

I believe that the ceroxylon species could grow very successfully on the island. Most probably on the mountains which looks like their natural habitat.

[Pargomad]

1 hour ago, Stelios said:

Rhopalostylis sapida. Too bad I couldn't take photos from this private garden cause I was driving. 

I believe that the ceroxylon species could grow very successfully on the island. Most probably on the mountains which looks like their natural habitat.

I've never seen any nikau palm on the island. Do you remember where you saw it ? 

[Cluster]

Hello Kevin,

Isn't  Areca catechu more tropical than cocos? Where could I find one? 

[Stelios]

11 hours ago, Pargomad said:

I've never seen any nikau palm on the island. Do you remember where you saw it ? 

Hi Kevin

I don't remember the exact location. I only remember that we drove from Sao Vicente to go to Santana. It must have been after Ponta Delgada so probably on the road ER101 between Boaventura to Santana in one of these small villages. The house was right on the road on the left hand side as we drove towards Santana. There were 3 or 4 nikau palms with about 1.5 - 2 meters clear trunk. I still remember their very fat crowshafts.

[Pargomad]

Hi Stelios! Thanks for the clarification. When I have time, I will check the road on Google street view, but I believe you, it is more than likely that there are some nikau palms growing in private gardens on the island. 

 

Hey Cluster! Regarding the betel palm, now that you mention it, I must confess that I'm not sure of its presence on the island as I literally can't tell the difference between it and the Solitaire palm (Ptychosperma elegans). In the phytogeographic study of the gardens and parks of Funchal, Quintal certifies its presence in the Monte Palace tropical garden.

 

Nevertheless, I think we cannot trust this piece of information, as a matter of fact, the study previously mentioned might contain some mistakes as, for example, when the author confuses the two Royal palms of the English Cemetery with the Spindle palms (Hyophorbe verschaffeltii). However, I added this palm in my list a few years ago, so there must have been a reason why I wrote it in here but, again, I might have confused it with a Solitaire palm.

I know there are some Betel looking palms in some hotels in Funchal like the Cs Madeira hotel (the link below) or in the Ajuda gardens.

(PS: Am I the only one who can't see the pictures of the Lipstick palm ?)

 

https://www.google.ch/maps/@32.6380624,-16.9288013,3a,75y,139.72h,91.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIKdkrId-WY0rxDKNmlA0Ww!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=fr

 

(Here is a betel palm to compare)

 

Tell me what you think of these !

 

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

Hello Kevin,

The pictures ain't working for me either so I downloaded them and uploaded them, will post it again:

September 2k8 (planted):

 

After a very cold Autumn and February, mid march 2k9 (the white balance was probably off in these next two as it is more red) :

 

Last time I heard about him and the lipstick  2k10:

 

 

 

Mature lipsticks somewhere else:

 

They are considered one of the most tropical palms, sometimes seen as number one. Would be cool to give it a go in the warmest parts=)

Edited March 12, 2018 by Cluster