Phoenix theophrasti

[_Keith]

What does this palm want that I don't have? I have two, one is dying a slow death, the other growing at a pace that makes a snail look like Superman. My only guess is lime and lots of it, but before I help it or kill it all the way, help me to figure it out. Water no issue, soil prep no issue, ferts no issue, compost yes, but is that what it wants? Lime? Help

[Phoenikakias]

Less air humidity, it seems that plants down in the eastern south 'swim' in air humidity. How acidic is your soil? Best for you would be a hybrid of porhyrocarpa x theophrasti, if the real problem is indeed high humidity. Better post some pictures anyway. I have the impression that you do not irrigate your palms. Theophrasti needs a lot of water to grow fast.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Phoenikakias

[_Keith]

We have lots of humidity I can't do much about that. And we have 60 iches of rain a year, so after a year or two I do not the irrigate. But, our souls are acidic and I think that is where the real issue lies.

[Phoenikakias]

Before outplanting, did you grow the theos in pot for some time? If pot medium was not native soil and nevertheless palms were still struggling then problem is to found in another factor beside soil...

[Pip]

They grow really well here in Adelaide but aren't grown very much due to the spiny nature. The soils of the Adelaide plains are neutral to very alkaline where the top soil is shallow over limestone.

[Phoenikakias]

A Phoenix is not finicky regarding soil... So degree of acidity is also an important factor.

[mnorell]

Keith, I lost one of my two P. theophrasti up in Natchez in the 2010 freezes. The other barely survived but keeps pushing along. I am somewhat sorry I ever planted the thing. It is not the prettiest Phoenix by a long shot, it's very slow, it suckers ridiculously, has horrific spines and just is not worth the bother. I'm sure it will be taken out sooner or later by cold. You'd do better to plant a Medjool dactylifera. But truth be told, the Phoenix for the Deep South is P. sylvestris. It is such a beautiful thing even with its spines, it grows quickly, rebounds from cold damage in all but the worst winters, etc. I can't say enough good things about it. The other one would be P. reclinata since it will no doubt recover from a 20-year-freeze by resprouting from the rootstock. I also have a P. sylvestris hybrid (unknown pollen-donor) that I bought a couple of years ago from a dealer in Central Florida, I bought a bunch of seedlings, and let the weak sisters die in bad winters. The two I had left made it through the recent horrible winters in a pot in our courtyard with roots frozen solid for several days. They defoliated (of course) but began pushing in the spring. They are now in the ground there and I think they will be real winners, though who knows what they will look like.

P. sylvestris is being used all around New Orleans and even in other I-10-adjacent areas in the last few years and they seem utterly happy and beautiful. I think they are more or less replacing the queens that have fried in the recent winters, and they are IMHO a great replacement.

[_Keith]

I have 5 sylvestris on the property and love them. In this section I actually wanted 3 suckering palms in a curve. The central is a reclinata, and since the theoprasti seedlings were free, I thought why not. Research at the time indicated they were cold hardier than the reclinata. The reclinata is happy as heck in that area, but the theos are not.

[mnorell]

Plus I think the reclinatas are much more vigorous and suckers will quickly sprout after damage. They are also accustomed to a humid climate. My theo that croaked had suckers and plenty of opportunity to sprout more...but it was deader than a doornail. Just a big disappointment. Of course it could have been just a genetic weakling, but my other specimen was severely damaged and really still has just started to recover but keeps getting knocked back in upper teens winters with multiple-day freezes. Even Robert Lee Riffle said in his book that it was "basically a slightly less hardy dactylifera" or something to that effect. I think he was right. BTW I made a mistake when I said my very hardy hybrids were P. sylvestris. Actually the mother was a reclinata...so there are some hardy genes in that species. When they get bigger hopefully I can figure out what the baby-daddy might have been.

[edbrown_III]

I have about 1/2 dozen around the yard --- some are nothing after 20 years 3 of em are majestic trees --- I live in swampy North Florida --- maybe yu got the bad luck of the draw --- its like people some of olympic atheletes others are klutze's

[_Keith]

Well, as an update, I lost one. The other seems to be SLOWLY gathering a little momentum since I started applying Lime in small amounts. We'll see. Certainly, if water was the issue we'll know this year, if it doesn't drown first, lol.

[Kostas]

I bet they have rot problems that cause them to struggle and grow so slowly. Here they are at least average growers as far as Phoenix species go and i wanna bet quick growers if grown with excellent drainage over a shallow water table

[Alicehunter2000]

But, our souls are acidic and I think that is where the real issue lies.

Always knew there was something odd about people from Louisiana ..... and now I know.

[_Keith]

But, our souls are acidic and I think that is where the real issue lies.

Always knew there was something odd about people from Louisiana ..... and now I know.

Damned Siri. Yeah, I probably fat fingered it, but I'll blame it on Siri anyway.

[Phoenikakias]

Theophrastii grows astonishingly fast in the swampy area of Nea Kios outside Nauplion. Water table is very shallow even during summer. A well grown theo can be pretty ornamental, horrifically spiny yes, but also ornamental! In the UK it has proved the cold hardiest and most reliable Phoenix sp.

[_Keith]

Theophrastii grows astonishingly fast in the swampy area of Nea Kios outside Nauplion. Water table is very shallow even during summer. A well grown theo can be pretty ornamental, horrifically spiny yes, but also ornamental! In the UK it has proved the cold hardiest and most reliable Phoenix sp.

Great info, thx. A little bit of shoddy research shows that area is likely alkaline. At best it is neutral, could range up to 8.4 pH. That is quite a bit off from our acid soils, so my guess of adding lime is pretty much right on in that respect.

[Kostas]

Few places of the warmer areas of Greece would have acidic soils but I doubt it's a pH issue

[Sabal Steve]

There's a big one in Pasadena at the Huntington, near San Marino:)

I believe that this is part of a larger clump.

[Phil]

Keith,

Although I have none actually in my garden, at our nursery they've been bullet proof. They seem to thrive no matter how much neglect they get. We water them once a week. They've seen mid-twenties to the low 90's, in sun.

See photos.

Phil

[Phoenikakias]

@Phil where do you get seed for propagation from? Has anybody observed whether there is a constant variation within the sp (maybe also connected with certain provenance) regarding trunk diameter and (degree of) caespitose habit? Or rather trunk diameter is related to number of suckers left growing?

[dalmatiansoap]

Lost a spear on mine. Are they hard to recover? It's like one on the Phils first picture.

[Phoenikakias]

WHAT?????????? I do not think it is cold damage, if your palms was growing on dalmatian coast...

[dalmatiansoap]

WHAT?????????? I do not think it is cold damage, if your palms was growing on dalmatian coast...

We had -4C, coldest since 1993. Dozens of spearpulls. Dactyliferas and cidps are recovering, reclinatas are gone, no movement on my Theo.

[Matt N- Dallas]

I grew theo's twice in Dallas and found them to be slow, suckering, viciously spiny, not too attractive and less cold hardy than dactylifera. Finally, the cold of 2011 & 2013 took them out. My dacty's survived.

[Phoenikakias]

I grew theo's twice in Dallas and found them to be slow, suckering, viciously spiny, not too attractive and less cold hardy than dactylifera. Finally, the cold of 2011 & 2013 took them out. My dacty's survived.

Not quite what I would expect from a feral form of dactylifera, as theophrastii in 'Revision of the genus Phoenix' is suspected to be!

[Phoenikakias]

WHAT?????????? I do not think it is cold damage, if your palms was growing on dalmatian coast...

We had -4C, coldest since 1993. Dozens of spearpulls. Dactyliferas and cidps are recovering, reclinatas are gone, no movement on my Theo.

Ante, where did your theos come from? In Nea Kios temps dip almost every year to -4 C and yet theos remain totally unfazed!

[redbeard917]

Check out this happy palm at the Gisella Kopsick Palm Arboretum in Tampa. It's a few hundred feet at the most from salt water. So probably fairly humid. Probably sandy soil. They have a reputation for being spiny monsters, but to my eyes this palm is attractive.

[Ben in Norcal]

Check out this happy palm at the Gisella Kopsick Palm Arboretum in Tampa. It's a few hundred feet at the most from salt water. So probably fairly humid. Probably sandy soil. They have a reputation for being spiny monsters, but to my eyes this palm is attractive.

Beauty. Much more unique looking than a Dacty to my eyes. I have both!

[redbeard917]

Another pic.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I also took a pic of that Theo. at Kopsick earlier this spring as I thought it was one of the most attractive palms in the Gardens. The blue color of this specimen is absolutely stunning in person. I have a few hundred <1yr seedlings from Crete seed that I plan on growing and trying. CIDP's and Dacty's are soooo close to making it here in DFW and if a Theo is even 1 degree hardier it will survive.

[dalmatiansoap]

WHAT?????????? I do not think it is cold damage, if your palms was growing on dalmatian coast...

We had -4C, coldest since 1993. Dozens of spearpulls. Dactyliferas and cidps are recovering, reclinatas are gone, no movement on my Theo.

Ante, where did your theos come from? In Nea Kios temps dip almost every year to -4 C and yet theos remain totally unfazed!

Not sure. It is seed grown but not from me. I got it as a strap leave seedling from a friend grower. Im guessing seeds were from Europalms.

[Phoenikakias]

I suppose you can fancy that -4 C is considered as only light frost in the UK, where the theophrastii is reported to grow reliably... It is very weird what you describe and even the fact that CIDP's were also affected... Do you have any explanation available?

[dalmatiansoap]

Yes. That cold came while plants were still in active growth phase not during winter when they would be in resting period and ready to take that cold.

[dalmatiansoap]

I suppose you can fancy that -4 C is considered as only light frost in the UK, where the theophrastii is reported to grow reliably... It is very weird what you describe and even the fact that CIDP's were also affected... Do you have any explanation available?

Better late than never. Theo is slowly coming back and I dont know for sure whats going on with it? Looks like its pushing new spears, like its dividing? Doesnt look like a side shot.

[Phoenikakias]

Yet it is a side shot... trim it back sp that all strength is reserved for the main growing point.

[Josh-O]

Where is Keith??

[_Keith]

Lost one of my two. The other is still sulking. At a loss.

[Josh-O]

sorry to hear the

[_Keith]

After several years of sulking, it seems that this palm is waking up.   Stay tuned.

[Kris]

Nice visuals gentlemen...

Love,

Kris.