How do Lodoicea nuts climb the hill?

[doranakandawatta]

I can'st sleep anymore since I went to Praslin and now wonder how, in the wild, these 25 kg seeds can climb the slopes of their natural habitat ?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/44425-wild-lodoicea-in-praslin/?hl=lodoicea

There are no monkey in Seychelles and I doubt birds can transport these nuts.

Please, palmy friends, let me know! Thanks.

[Kai]

How about an African swallow?

[Pal Meir]

Another possible explanation I found in the article of Wikipedia:

”The embryo sits in the sinus between the two lobes. During germination a tubular cotyledonary petiole develops that connects the young plant to the seed. The length of the tube is reported to reach about four metres.[6] In the Vallee de Mai the tube may be up to 10 m long.[9]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodoicea

As the tube connecting the seed with the seedling is so long (4 to 10 m) the seedling might be able to climb up step by step the hills. Nice idea?

[Peter Pacific]

Philippe, how can I get a double coconut for my garden in Guatemala?

[Gonzer]

Plate tectonics.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Nobody ever hear about the Roc?

[Brad-Tampa]

200 years for each "hop"

[Josh-O]

How about an African swallow?

african swallow2.jpg

hahahahahaha

[Josh-O]

Nobody ever hear about the Roc?

lol.....

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Most likely people took the seed up to the top of the slopes either to plant or for some other purpose. All it would take is one palm at the top of the slope to then seed the whole lower slope. Or a tall palm with seed and growing at the bottom of the slope would fall, in a storm, up slope depositing the seed up slope the lengh of the trunk. Repeat this time after time over years and they would slowly climb up. it is also possible that a seed would fall and bounce off of something sending it up slope a little.

[rprimbs]

If you send me some seeds I can investigate this phenomenon.

[redbeard917]

Another possible explanation I found in the article of Wikipedia:

”The embryo sits in the sinus between the two lobes. During germination a tubular cotyledonary petiole develops that connects the young plant to the seed. The length of the tube is reported to reach about four metres.[6] In the Vallee de Mai the tube may be up to 10 m long.[9]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodoicea

As the tube connecting the seed with the seedling is so long (4 to 10 m) the seedling might be able to climb up step by step the hills. Nice idea?

Yes, that sounds plausible. I think it's a clever idea. And, if true, there are certainly stranger adaptations in the plant kingdom.

It's an interesting question. Also, from the same Wikipedia article, the viable nuts can't float, but the palm grows on two islands.

[doranakandawatta]

Philippe, how can I get a double coconut for my garden in Guatemala?

Peter,

As soon as I get enough seeds for planting a Lodoicea grove, I'll be able to tell you how.

Before that, sadly no solution.

I saw in Vallée de Mai boutique dry nuts sold as souvenir, with number and certificate, for about 300 or 400 euros, but nothing else.

IPS should ask for the same nuts, same price but viable.

[Pal Meir]

Another possible explanation I found in the article of Wikipedia:

”The embryo sits in the sinus between the two lobes. During germination a tubular cotyledonary petiole develops that connects the young plant to the seed. The length of the tube is reported to reach about four metres.[6] In the Vallee de Mai the tube may be up to 10 m long.[9]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodoicea

As the tube connecting the seed with the seedling is so long (4 to 10 m) the seedling might be able to climb up step by step the hills. Nice idea?

Yes, that sounds plausible. I think it's a clever idea. And, if true, there are certainly stranger adaptations in the plant kingdom.

It's an interesting question. Also, from the same Wikipedia article, the viable nuts can't float, but the palm grows on two islands.

The two natural habitats of Lodoicea are Praslin and the very small island Curieuse. The distance between these islands is less than 1 km. It is likely that they were connected during the ice age when the sea level was much lower, I suppose.

[Pando]

I can'st sleep anymore since I went to Praslin and now wonder how, in the wild, these 25 kg seeds can climb the slopes of their natural habitat ?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/44425-wild-lodoicea-in-praslin/?hl=lodoicea

There are no monkey in Seychelles and I doubt birds can transport these nuts.

Please, palmy friends, let me know! Thanks.

They don't have to. These palms endemic in Seychelles islands have existed there a long time, and probably evolved in-place to have giant seeds. If you think of geologic terms, they have most likely been traveling downhill rather than uphill.

That's because these granitic islands were part of a much larger landmass. Continental drift has been pulling the Seychelles plate away from Africa and Madagascar since about 66 million years ago, and relentless erosion is slowly carving these islands away into the ocean. The entire Seychelles plate is also sinking into the ocean (fraction of an inch per millennia). Past glacial cycles have also caused the sea levels to rise (~20m) and fall (~120m) over the past several hundred thousand years, separating the populations and then combining them again as sea levels fell. Short term events such as tsunamis and storms may have transported the seeds within piles of floating branches even if the seeds could not float themselves.

What's fascinating to me is the evolution of this palm, showing island "gigantism" caused by very stable environment, long term isolation, and the absence of predators.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Pando

[Pal Meir]

I can'st sleep anymore since I went to Praslin and now wonder how, in the wild, these 25 kg seeds can climb the slopes of their natural habitat ?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/44425-wild-lodoicea-in-praslin/?hl=lodoicea

There are no monkey in Seychelles and I doubt birds can transport these nuts.

Please, palmy friends, let me know! Thanks.

They don't have to. These palms endemic in Seychelles islands have existed there a long time, and probably evolved in-place to have giant seeds. If you think of geologic terms, they have most likely been traveling downhill rather than uphill.

That's because these granitic islands were part of a much larger landmass. Continental drift has been pulling the Seychelles plate away from Africa and Madagascar since about 66 million years ago, and relentless erosion is slowly carving these islands away into the ocean. The entire Seychelles plate is also sinking into the ocean (fraction of an inch per millennia). Past glacial cycles have also caused the sea levels to rise (~20m) and fall (~120m) over the past several hundred thousand years, separating the populations and then combining them again as sea levels fell. Short term events such as tsunamis and storms may have transported the seeds within piles of floating branches even if the seeds could not float themselves.

What's fascinating to me is the evolution of this palm, showing island "gigantism" caused by very stable environment, long term isolation, and the absence of predators.

You wrote that the entire Seychelles plate is sinking into the ocean. I think this is right. But this means also that in ancient times the hills were higher than today. And this would mean that they had first to climb the then still higher hills to travel afterwards down again?

And a tsunami bumping against a small island amid the ocean wouldn’t be enough high.

[Pando]

I can'st sleep anymore since I went to Praslin and now wonder how, in the wild, these 25 kg seeds can climb the slopes of their natural habitat ?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/44425-wild-lodoicea-in-praslin/?hl=lodoicea

There are no monkey in Seychelles and I doubt birds can transport these nuts.

Please, palmy friends, let me know! Thanks.

They don't have to. These palms endemic in Seychelles islands have existed there a long time, and probably evolved in-place to have giant seeds. If you think of geologic terms, they have most likely been traveling downhill rather than uphill.

That's because these granitic islands were part of a much larger landmass. Continental drift has been pulling the Seychelles plate away from Africa and Madagascar since about 66 million years ago, and relentless erosion is slowly carving these islands away into the ocean. The entire Seychelles plate is also sinking into the ocean (fraction of an inch per millennia). Past glacial cycles have also caused the sea levels to rise (~20m) and fall (~120m) over the past several hundred thousand years, separating the populations and then combining them again as sea levels fell. Short term events such as tsunamis and storms may have transported the seeds within piles of floating branches even if the seeds could not float themselves.

What's fascinating to me is the evolution of this palm, showing island "gigantism" caused by very stable environment, long term isolation, and the absence of predators.

But this means also that in ancient times the hills were higher than today. And this would mean that they had first to climb the then still higher hills to travel afterwards down again?

And a tsunami bumping against a small island amid the ocean wouldn’t be enough high.

With the hills being constantly eroded, yes, the landmass was bigger in the past. However, Seychelles are not volcanic islands that arose from the sea, requiring the palms to "populate" the island from the shore going up in a short amount of time if that's what you're thinking. It's the other way around. The landmass was larger, and at some point millions of years ago it was connected to Africa, Madagascar, and India before they started to break up due to continental drift. These species "hitched the ride" when they were cut off from the larger continent, and the endemic species there have been slowly evolving since then, adapting to the new environment and isolation. The ancestor of Lodoicea we see today was probably much different anyway, with very possibly having much smaller seeds.

So, the palms have been growing there, evolving, on the top of the hills for a very long time when the landmass was larger. It's the hills underneath them that are being eroded away.

Also, if you think over many millions of years, seeds randomly dropping just a few feet from the trunk will eventually populate the entire hill. It's just an incredibly slow process. It's the combination of all of these events that we are now seeing, and the process is still going on and will go on until the islands eventually disappear into the ocean. Chances are however that humans may cause the extinction of these species long before then.

[Jeff Searle]

I just want a "dead" seed for my personal collection. I would love to polish it up and display it in my home. If any one can get me a seed....I will make it worth your while! Please help me!!!

Jeff