Is this good palm fert?

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

I have sandy alkaline soil.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

It is not the best in the world but it is not horrible either.

A better analysis would be:

N-8

P-2

K-12

Mag-4

The product should be 100% slow release, or at least the N and the K with the same release rate. Otherwise there could be an imbalance. Look for fert that does not have Muriate of Potash as a source. That is where all your chlorine is coming from.

[Pedro 65]

Jason, its pretty hard to "compete" with Nutricote Total+TE with a US rating of N 13 P 13 K 13 + all the trace elements, Palms "Love" it, zoom in and look at all the grey granules you see at the bases of palms in"most" Big Island Palm gardens

Your fert looks pretty good "apart" from the Phosphorous which is too low, its "vital" for good root growth.

Pete

[palmislandRandy]

It is not the best in the world but it is not horrible either.

A better analysis would be:

N-8

P-2

K-12

Mag-4

The product should be 100% slow release, or at least the N and the K with the same release rate. Otherwise there could be an imbalance. Look for fert that does not have Muriate of Potash as a source. That is where all your chlorine is coming from.

Yup, Exactly what Jerry suggested. It's the correct formula for South Florida's sandy, alkaline soil.

-Randy

[Moose]

It is not the best in the world but it is not horrible either.

A better analysis would be:

N-8

P-2

K-12

Mag-4

The product should be 100% slow release, or at least the N and the K with the same release rate. Otherwise there could be an imbalance. Look for fert that does not have Muriate of Potash as a source. That is where all your chlorine is coming from.

Yup, Exactly what Jerry suggested. It's the correct formula for South Florida's sandy, alkaline soil.

-Randy

If you have already purchased it, I would use it. I've seen way worse formulas calling themselves "palm fertilizers".

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Looks decent to me. I've seen worse even on the high priced stuff.

[Palmaceae]

It is not the best in the world but it is not horrible either.

A better analysis would be:

N-8

P-2

K-12

Mag-4

The product should be 100% slow release, or at least the N and the K with the same release rate. Otherwise there could be an imbalance. Look for fert that does not have Muriate of Potash as a source. That is where all your chlorine is coming from.

What is the acceptable amount, if any, of chlorine in fertilizer? How does this fertilizer look?

Thanks

[Palmdude]

Maybe a higher phosphate number for California ? I'm not too sure about California soils. Here in Florida we go with low numbers on the phosphates because our soils are already high in phosphates.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ep261

Here's the FL recommendations.

Nutricote total isn't right for the soils here. Its fine for pots, but not the soil but the products like 18-6-8 are actually better than 13-13-13. There is no need for super high Phosphorous...extra doesn't grow roots better unless its actually deficient. Excess is just a waste. Also, Osmocote Plus, Osmocote Exact, or Suncote (depending on your country/state) are all excellent for container soils. Again, not for FL soils. We're overloaded with Phosphorous here as evidenced by the local phosphate mines. In fact, 0 phosphorous formulas are mandated in some locales.

The product you bought isn't too bad Jason. Its kind of hard to read some of the percentages on my monitor. The one thing I disagree with Dr Broschat's recommendation is that if you have high cellulose mulch (cypress; melaleuca; ground up, un-composted yard waste, etc), the microbes eating it will consume a lot of Nitrogen. In that situation, the extra Nitrogen isn't going to cause harm. Still, I don't think you can over-apply potassium here. The chlorides probably aren't an issue due to our heavy rains and sandy soils. But if you are close to the sea, it would be best to use potassium sulfate instead of chloride since the sea salt contains plenty of chlorides already.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Jason, its pretty hard to "compete" with Nutricote Total+TE with a US rating of N 13 P 13 K 13 + all the trace elements, Palms "Love" it, zoom in and look at all the grey granules you see at the bases of palms in"most" Big Island Palm gardens

Your fert looks pretty good "apart" from the Phosphorous which is too low, its "vital" for good root growth.

Pete

Lone Ranger, consider fertilization as the technique to compensate for deficiencies of soil. If you have rich, loam, there are fewer deficiencies than in heavily leached sand. The fertilization practices will be substantially different. So, when we develop a fertilization program for Agriculture, we start with whats in the soil, then look at the known needs of the crop based on tissue analysis, then finally, we look at the irrigation water since it might contribute something to the total nutrient deposition too (especially Calcium, Magnesium or Micronutrient). Then we fill in the gaps with fertilizer assuming a certain use efficiency. Its a fairly scientific process these days. Its what my company (Everris/ICL) does. We sell coated fertilizer for use in Queensland on Sugarcane and I had the incredible experience of speaking to a group of cane growers there back in 2011. I can't wait to come back and visit Australia as a tourist! That trip just whet my appetite for more Aussie time!

[Tropicdoc]

Cool topic. So, Keith.... I live in south lousiana. Our soil is mostly what we call "Blackjack" Its black clay I guess deposited over years by the Mississippi River and its branches. I have some plants under live oaks with a 6 inch layer of composted leaves on top of the clay. What are your recs for fertilizer/ amendments here... or do you need to do a scientific soil analysis before answering that question?

[_Keith]

Well, I am going to preach what I don't practice, get a soil test. Actually get several if your soils vary. I am kind of lucky as I live on the banks of what used the be the Mississippi River a few thousand years ago. Great soils. But even still, in just over the 700 feet from the front to the rear of the property I am amazed at how much the soils vary. Add to that my land has been in use over 150 years, and probably yours has, too so who knows what a shovel might bring up. Last time, I dug a hole for a palm, up came 2 horse shoes. I put them back in the hole, extra iron for the palm. :-).

So, why don't practice what I preach. I am lazy, and even in the worst case our clay soils are very nutrient rich. I compost a lot for soil structure and internal drainage. Every so often, randomly, I put down a palm specific fert just in case I am missing some palm specific thing, like Manganese. I also watch the farmers closely, cause while a palm isn't sugar cane, it is close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades. So, I add nitrogen occasionally, mostly in the spring. I should probably be adding lime every 2 or 3 years, too.

Last year, I began adding nitrogen right after big freezes to keep those palms pushing out damaged spears. Can't say if it helped one way or another.

[Tropicdoc]

Keith, it sounds like we could sit and have a long (3-4 beer) discussion about soils and fertilizer! Just curious, why do you say you should add lime? Would that be for the alkaline loving palms?

[_Keith]

Keith, it sounds like we could sit and have a long (3-4 beer) discussion about soils and fertilizer! Just curious, why do you say you should add lime? Would that be for the alkaline loving palms?

So, you had to go and ask that Lime question, didn't you. All I know is that the farmers that do, have noticeably better crops, both sugar cane and regular old eating vegetables that those that don't. Not to mention, as you said, things like like it a little alkaline as our soils do run on the acid side. Well, since you made me, you know once you asked I had to research, and I came up with this. It is a good simple read in PPT format.

http://www.epa.gov/gmpo/cac/pdf/mtng-feb-08-sugarcane-production-recom.pdf

[Pedro 65]

As a quick reply , when I say Nutricote 13 13 13 that is US standards, in Oz the "same product" is as Ive shown in Red, also, "If' folks go to "buy Nutricote total TE their is "many" different NPK and amount of day release etc , so buyers be aware.

Tropicdoc, Keith is onto it and giving you the advice , all I can add from here is that when dolomite/lime is added heavily to Clay it 1stly raises the ph and releases "all" the "locked up" binded nutrients/minerals, and Blackjack,even the name says its "loaded" with gear wanting to escape.

Also, Id like to add that Palms fed with "too high" N will "attract" scale, spiral whitefly, etc etc

Keith in Sth Jax , we have a few different soil types here on my property , deep red, podsol, red clay, white clay, brown etc with a low ph of around 3 so on the clay I load the lime, and reds I add heavier doses of N Total, and like any keen gardener, still learning but staying with what works best. Im not clued up @all on Sandy soil in Florida so I will leave all the rest of the Rav'n up to you fella's.

All best, happy growing Pete

Nutricote Total TE 180 Day - 13 : 5.7 : 10.8

[Tropicdoc]

Do you just throw lime on top or do you have to till it in?

[Tropicdoc]

I read the article interesting I'm scared I would raise the ph too high and really screw things up though

[_Keith]

I read the article interesting I'm scared I would raise the ph too high and really screw things up though

I use it on top, granular form, and ONLY on palms and trees that I know like it alkaline. I could be more precise of I had a soil test. I just wing it l, go easy, and observe. Now, in the vegetable beds I experiment more freely.

[Alicehunter2000]

Would adding small sea shells to a planting hole help in incrasing ph for palms that like higher ph? Shells are e as sier to come by than limestone around here.

Always wondered if seaweed was good mulch too.?

[Josh-O]

David, Seaweed is an awesome mulch. You need to blend it in the first couple of inches to start the decomposition process.

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Keith, it sounds like we could sit and have a long (3-4 beer) discussion about soils and fertilizer! Just curious, why do you say you should add lime? Would that be for the alkaline loving palms?

So, you had to go and ask that Lime question, didn't you. All I know is that the farmers that do, have noticeably better crops, both sugar cane and regular old eating vegetables that those that don't. Not to mention, as you said, things like like it a little alkaline as our soils do run on the acid side. Well, since you made me, you know once you asked I had to research, and I came up with this. It is a good simple read in PPT format.

http://www.epa.gov/gmpo/cac/pdf/mtng-feb-08-sugarcane-production-recom.pdf

Good read. Lime basically corrects the soil so the palms can efficiently utilize the nutrients (if it is acidic) in the soil/fertilizer. I've seen it first hand in row crops and it's a pretty big difference.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

In watching those Elaine Ingham youtube vids on the other fert thread, I am going to try a compost tea experiment. According to her, there is plenty of every element in every soil already. If you create a good soil biology, it will release everything the plants need, no matter the soil or pH level.

[LJG]

Jerry, Google "compost tea debate dr Ingham dr Chalker-Scott"

[Pedro 65]

Do you just throw lime on top or do you have to till it in?

Both, and when I plant a palm in lots of clay i put plenty in the bottom of the hole and dig in.

[_Keith]

I read the article interesting I'm scared I would raise the ph too high and really screw things up though

Doc, you are a learned man. Buy this book, Gardening in the Humid South by O'Rourke and Standifer. There is precious little about palms specifically, but overall you will learn more about growing plants in our area than all other books, blogs, and websites combined.

[Alicehunter2000]

Josh, I assume I would have to wash the seaweed in freshwater first?

Anybody know about sea shells?

[Alicehunter2000]

Nevermind...a quick search revealed that yes they are both beneficial...going to start collecting and adding to the mix

[_Keith]

Nevermind...a quick search revealed that yes they are both beneficial...going to start collecting and adding to the mix

[Tropicdoc]

I read the article interesting I'm scared I would raise the ph too high and really screw things up though

Doc, you are a learned man. Buy this book, Gardening in the Humid South by O'Rourke and Standifer. There is precious little about palms specifically, but overall you will learn more about growing plants in our area than all other books, blogs, and websites combined.

Will order it tonight only 17 bucks on amazon prime!

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I will say it to the day I die. GO ORGANIC!!! The natural way IS ALWAYS the best, just like the way the plants grow in nature. In the wild, there is no one applying synthetic fertilizers to the palms or other plants and look at how they grow! When you build up the beneficial microbes in the soil, you have deep healthy roots, and when you have deep healthy roots, you have healthy vibrant palms and other plants. I use MicroLife 8-4-6 Ultimate Aoll Biological Organic Fertilizer from San Jacinto Environmental in Houston. It has 70 micronutrients and is specifically formulated for the Gulf Coast. They only sell to retail nurseries and landscapers, but since I do landscaping work, I can buy directly from them. It is ABSOLUTELY THE BEST I have ever found, and I have been growing palms and other plants for 30+ years! I also use their 4-2-3 Ocean Harvest, which is a foliar spray version of their slow release granular, with EXCELLENT results!

To all the naysayers out the about going ALL ORGANIC, I say this. I have a B.S. Degree in Agriculture from Texas A&M University and have done horticulture both ways with the synthetic chemicals like A&M brainwashed us to do, and doing things the NATURAL ORGANIC WAY. I can honestly say that growing the NATURAL ORGANIC WAY IS INFINITELY BETTER FOR THE PLANTS, FOR US, AND FOR THE ENVIRONMENT!!! When you go ALL ORGANIC, the beneficial bugs, like lady bugs, lizards, toads, earthworms, etc. come back and your pest problems are FAR REDUCED over what they are with the synthetic chemicals. ALSO, WHEN YOU GO ALL ORGANIC, YOU REDUCE YOUR WATERING BY 30-40%, WHICH IS A MAJOR FACTOR FOR THOSE OF US IN OFTEN DROUGHT STRICKEN SOUTH TEXAS, AND NOW RECORD DROUGHT STRICKEN CALIFORNIA!!!

John

[Tropicdoc]

Mr coconut palm I have only 1 negative to say about your post I would love to go organic and have looked into getting micro life after reading one of your old posts but can't get it! Argh.

[trioderob]

I will be the "nay sayer " here.

in my viewpoint palms grower much faster with man made fert

nothing wrong with organics and I do add them to balance out any missing micro's and keep the worms digging - but if fast is what you are looking for - its man made hands down.

[_Keith]

The fault is assuming it has to be one way or the other. I'm convinced that a hybrid program is best for most.

[_Keith]

or not.

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

Thanks for all the input guys.

[Moose]

The fault is assuming it has to be one way or the other. I'm convinced that a hybrid program is best for most.

I'm in the "hybrid" category. Truthfully plants do not care what source their nutrients are from. However, it makes a difference to all the critters in the soil. Interruption to a plant's symbiotic relationship with the denizens of the soil needs to be considered. Personally I heavily mulch and throw my "man made" mineral supplements on top of it. Figuring that all the mulch critters can process it then releasing it and the re-releasing, etc ... in their food chain. I use less fertilizer now but plants have never looked better.

Slow release K-Mag is one mineral amendment that I never forego. Florida soils have negligible amounts, If you are going to grow non-natives, simply gotta have it.

[NorthFlpalmguy]

I will be the "nay sayer " here.

in my viewpoint palms grower much faster with man made fert

nothing wrong with organics and I do add them to balance out any missing micro's and keep the worms digging - but if fast is what you are looking for - its man made hands down.

Agreed.

[_Keith]

I read the article interesting I'm scared I would raise the ph too high and really screw things up though

Doc, you are a learned man. Buy this book, Gardening in the Humid South by O'Rourke and Standifer. There is precious little about palms specifically, but overall you will learn more about growing plants in our area than all other books, blogs, and websites combined.

Will order it tonight only 17 bucks on amazon prime!

Wondering it you got into the book yet, and what you think. I just re-read it after this conversation. Pick up a few more things I missed in the original reading.