Pix of Pseudophoenix sargentii in habitat in Florida?

[Yunder Wækraus]

Does anyone have pictures of buccaneer palms (Pseudophoenix sargentii) in habitiat in Florida? (I believe they're restricted to two or three of the Upper Keys, though I don't know whether that was the historical situation.) I'm espcially intersted in both current photos of the remaining stands in habitat; I'm also interested in any photos of stands of in Florida habitat as they existed in the past (if any such photos exist).

[Dave-Vero]

They were on Elliott Key and were nearly wiped out by a vengeful landowner who didn't want to sell out to the National Park Service, so bulldozed as much vegetation as he could.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Are there current and past photos? Do we know whether it was ever found on the mainland?

[Dave-Vero]

Elbert Little's classic "Atlas of United States Trees: Volume 5. Florida" has it only in the Elliott Key area. The Institute for Regional Conservation would have up to date distribution information at its website.

[Yunder Wækraus]

I read this a couple of years ago: http://www.palms.org/principes/1995/vol39n1p5-13.pdf

[Jimbean]

The closest I have seen them in habitat is a re-wilding attempt around South Beach.

[Matthew92]

Not in FL, but here's one I found on "Castaway Cay," Disney's private Bahama island several years ago. This was back when I was a little more clueless on palms- but I remember marveling how it looked like a miniature royal palm and wondering if it was rare. Now that I know what it is I'm delighted I got this picture in habitat.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Opal92

[Yunder Wækraus]

Awesome pic! They are really wonderful palms. I've only seen two largish ones up here so far, both on Merritt Island. I hope the two small ones I have planted will grow fast enough for me to enjoy that wonderful trunk.

[Xerarch]

I've seen some great Florida habitat photos of these on forum before, I don't have time to look it up right now, but I remember even some pics of mature ones in gardens on the mainland that are suspected to have grown in habitat on the keys before being dug up and moved.

[Zeeth]

Awesome pic! They are really wonderful palms. I've only seen two largish ones up here so far, both on Merritt Island. I hope the two small ones I have planted will grow fast enough for me to enjoy that wonderful trunk.

Interesting that you've seen some on Merritt island. I've only ever seen one over here that wasn't at a botanical garden or a collectors yard. It had about 6 feet of trunk on it and looked pretty old.

[Yunder Wækraus]

They're two of them in different yards near the road as you head south on South Tropical Trail. They are on the very tip of Merritt Island not far before the small bridge (I believe it's called Mathers Bridge.) Both have 4-6' of trunk.

[Yunder Wækraus]

They're two of them in different yards near the road as you head south on South Tropical Trail. They are on the very tip of Merritt Island not far before the small bridge (I believe it's called Mathers Bridge.) Both have 4-6' of trunk.

[Sandy Loam]

Interesting. Is Merritt Island part of this palm's native range? I thought its native range in Florida was much farther south, i.e. BIscayne National Forest and Key Largo area.

[Yunder Wækraus]

No, I don't think it's native north of the keys

[palmsOrl]

I was wondering the same thing. It seems like the species is cold hardy enough (10a palm) to be naturalized as far north as tropical natives grow on both coasts. But it is definitely not native to anywhere in Central FL. Extreme SE FL/FL Keys only. I have a small one in the ground and don't anticipate any problems with it other than the fact that I will be old by the time it is large.

[Yunder Wækraus]

I think the most recently documented natural distribution of several tropical species in Florida has been limited by three factors: (1) extreme cold events (like the freeze in the 1890s), which likely have occurred in Florida every 1-2 centuries and which would likely have left islands of tender plants in tropical hammocks or protected spots near water (like the isolated moonvine population on the St. Johns or the more tender bromeliads and royal palms in SW Florida); (2) severe weather and lighting (e.g. hurricanes, tornados), which can destroy the vulnerable small populations left in these islands between severe freezes; (3) the extremely young geologic history of above-sea South Florida.

I firmly believe number 3 is why Florida never got the large lizards, snakes, tropical hummingbirds, larger parrots, etc., which should have been found there. In many ways, South Florida is like a young volcanic island that has just burst from the sea. It is still being colonized by plants and animals, and its habitat has many holes which must be filled by so-called exotic species. I have no doubt that an extra million years of consistent above-sea presence combined with mild California-style weather events and consistent absolute maximum freezes would have resulted in buccaneer palms growing wild all the way from the Keys to Merritt Island.

[palmsOrl]

This last post is extremely interesting to me. I had actually never thought of the latter two limiting factors for tropical flora (and fauna) in South and coastal Central FL, but it makes perfect sense. Isolated and disjunct populations of plant species are fascinating, as are the causes for their presence in a particular location. I'm afraid Peninsular Florida's geological future (with or without influence from mankind) may not allow it to reach its full biodiversity potential due to fluctuating sea levels over time.

I agree though, the species in question should be able to eventually (in geological time-frames) move northward to the limit of tropical species.

One thing I've wondered about though is that we may be aware of 50 year or 100 year freezes (even 200 year freezes perhaps), but what about when a 1,000 year freeze affects the area. Would we be looking at 32F in Key West, 22F in Miami, 16F in Ft. Myers and 10-12F in Orlando? I wouldn't be surprised if these types of temps have occurred at least once in the last 1,000 years.

This might be an unrecognized limiting factor that allows for more fast growing and robust (Pseudophoenix sargentii is not) species to move northward in the many centuries between cold events that are likely much worse than anyone except maybe Native Americans have ever witnessed affect the area.

Edited September 5, 2015 by palmsOrl

[Zeeth]

In addition to P. sargentii being limited in it's range, Thrinax radiata, Coccothrinax argentata and Leucothrinax morrisii will all grow and seed prolifically hundreds of miles further north than their native range. Thrinax radiata is the most tender of the group, but they'll grow as far north as St. Pete on this coast, maybe even Clearwater.

[Yunder Wækraus]

I completely agree. I think we have strong evidence that Florida has gone through extended periods without significant cold in the past followed by brief, if regular, cold events. The best example of this, I think, it's the St. John's River population of manatees. This subpopulation actually lives in the freshwater river system all year (unlike all other FL populations, which summer in salt or brackish water). Manatees cannot tolerate cold whatsoever, and St. Johns population is no different. However, the entire population survives the winter each year by swimming upriver to Blue Springs, where the temperature remains constant. In order for this behavior to have evolved and this distinct subpopulation to have arisen, the average water temperature must have been warmer in the past for long enough to allow the manatees to forage that far north and discover the spring. And the cold event must have been sudden enough to kill all St. John's manatees which had not discovered the spring. It's possible this happened back when the river was actually the ocean (before glaciers lowered the sea level, which also created the unique freshwater stingray population in the river). I think modern biogeography in CA also points to once-in-a-thousand-year freezes and drpughts there. This, I believe, outs why the mysterious Santa Cruz Island ironwood became extinct on the mainland long ago, and why Washingtonia robusta was not nstice to coastal CA.

[Yunder Wækraus]

*Native--please forgive my fat fingers typing on my smart phone :-(

[NOT A TA]

Plants are a bit different than animals as far as habitat. While a cold event might temporarily wipe out a particular tropical plant near the cold end of it's natural(ized) range, seeds (or other means of reproduction) would repopulate the area as long as favorable growth conditions occurred post event.  For this reason I also don't think "harvesting" killed off ALL of the Palmettos that once graced the area since it's doubtful that "poachers" would get every single one on private lands and in public parks etc. over a long enough time period so that there weren't any viable seeds left to sprout. There's probably a different reason they no longer thrive in the area. May have been a disease, particular bug, animals, long term climate change, or other factor which doesn't necessarily preclude repopulating at this time.

 

Edit:thought I was in the NC Palmetto thread, same concepts apply though if the Pseudophoenix sargentii was ever natural on the mainland here.

Edited January 2, 2019 by NOT A TA
I'm an idiot, thought I was in the NC Sabal Palmetto thread

[Zeeth]

1 hour ago, NOT A TA said:

Plants are a bit different than animals as far as habitat. While a cold event might temporarily wipe out a particular tropical plant near the cold end of it's natural(ized) range, seeds (or other means of reproduction) would repopulate the area as long as favorable growth conditions occurred post event.  For this reason I also don't think "harvesting" killed off ALL of the Palmettos that once graced the area since it's doubtful that "poachers" would get every single one on private lands and in public parks etc. over a long enough time period so that there weren't any viable seeds left to sprout. There's probably a different reason they no longer thrive in the area. May have been a disease, particular bug, animals, long term climate change, or other factor which doesn't necessarily preclude repopulating at this time.

 

Edit:thought I was in the NC Palmetto thread, same concepts apply though if the Pseudophoenix sargentii was ever natural on the mainland here.

P. sargentii was well known on Sand Key and Long Key, however, and was harvested to the point of local extinction, so it's definitely possible to over harvest a palm to the point where it's no longer found in an area. 

[NOT A TA]

1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

P. sargentii was well known on Sand Key and Long Key, however, and was harvested to the point of local extinction, so it's definitely possible to over harvest a palm to the point where it's no longer found in an area. 

I can see where that could happen where there's a small finite habitat, particularly if it's an island type situation with distinct limits and a micro-climate favorable to the particular plant. As mentioned, I was referring to mainland situations.