Ptychosperma elegans (Solitaire Palm)

[SoulofthePlace]

In January 2015 have planted Ptychosperma elegans (next to a house) about 4 ft. tall here on Pico island in the Azores (Earth's last paradise). Six months later it has grown one frond (lying on top of another frond) and strong wind has broken one of its fronds early on after planting. There's a new spear developed in the past 2-3 months that should become a new frond in the next month or so. It looks so far that this palm is growing one frond every 4-6 months or so. It's listed as fast growing by "The Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms". I wouldn't say it is very fast growing, such as Washingtonia robusta, which I also planted in January and it has grown at least 6 new fronds by now. Of course I treated Ptychosperma elegans very well, gave it special palm tree slow release fertilizer, water it often. The new and only frond that it has grown in the past 6 months has the entire section of "fingers" (leaves) completely brown and some has fell off. I guess those are establishing pains. It is July now, with beautiful temps between 65F and 78F and I think it is time for it to start growing fast(er). I know, the soil and the winds may be an issue, but so far it is a very slow growing palm or should I say medium at most. The new frond that is close to unfold itself within the next month or so, it seems to be growing again on top of the two fronds (hopefully not) and if it does the palm will look very much asymmetrical with most of its frond concentrated in one spot and another sides almost empty. Wonder why is it doing that. Two photos are attached to illustrate the case. Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions.

[Hammer]

It may be slow at the moment since it was planted so recently. It is probably laying down roots like crazy. So it is growing and preparing for more frowth. You just can't see it now.

Give it time. The crown will fill in.

[Pal Meir]

(1) Your palm looks sunburned. Plant it on a more shady wind protected place.

(2) Is it really a Ptychosperma? It is hard to decide because the tips of the leaflets are wilted.

(3) Young Ptychospema elegans prefer shady sites on a well-drained soil.

Here a pic of a young plant in its habitat on Green Island / QLD:

[realarch]

It almost looks like an Archontophoenix, but hard to tell from the photos. In any case, I agree with the above comments, it's too early to be expecting too much growth. Be patient.

Tim

[Vari805]

I agree with Tim....though just my thought

[Hammer]

It almost looks like an Archontophoenix, but hard to tell from the photos. In any case, I agree with the above comments, it's too early to be expecting too much growth. Be patient.

Tim

On closer inspection I agree. Not a Ptychosperma elegans.

[Josh-O]

are you growing coconuts?

[SoulofthePlace]

Wow guys, you're invaluable. Thank you! It was sold to me with a tag "Elegante" by the seemingly the only nursery on the island. So I decided for some reason that it was what the thread subject says. Since I have been growing palms as a hobbyist since 2007 (USA and now Europe) I have learned not to trust nurseries at all as I have noticed that most of their professionals have no idea what they are growing and what they are selling. But perhaps "Elegante" it is what they call it here in the Azores, who knows? You know, I was happy to find a nursery here anyway. :-) Better than nothing :-)

I understand that the crown will fill up, but why is the next frond (now still a spear) leaning towards the same side that another two fronds have already are there? I have split the two fronds from lying right on top of each other almost by force, somehow!

Sunburned? Well, it was planted as close to the curb, which is next to a narrow sidewalk next to a porch of a house and there is no way to plant it closer and in a complete shade. Is it really a Ptychosperma? I don't know, your photos show some palm with watermill-like fronds at their ends, so I guess it is not that one, not at all. Yet, can it still be some kind of Elegante? Perhaps I misidentified it? Could it be Archontophoenix elegante, if such exist? Because the tag says "Elegante" and when I asked the PROFESSIONAL NURSERY OWNER AND SPECIALIST about the Latin name of the genus he told me he doesn't know, but they call it Elegante.

Yes, I am patient and I will wait, I just would like to know, if a professional nursery does not know what it is, then what am I growing, guys? :-))) I know, we may have to wait to identify it, even if it is already about 4 feet tall.

Am I growing coconuts here? I have made research and I believe we can not grow coconuts in the Azores. Yet I am open in doing research for coconuts and I believe, only my own belief, that it will fail. I have so far planted banana "trees" and orange, lemons, mandarins and avocado as well and am waiting for the results. Of course I see plenty of bananas and lemons, oranges growing here and I was given lots of those by neighbours already. But coconuts, never seen those growing here, but I see some tropical pans growing here that look "OK". At a 38 latitude.

The (unidentified) palm (in the photos) was planted on the northern side of the house, in a semi-shade where during "winter" only the very edge of one frond is exposed to a little bit of sun and during summer it is somehow exposed to sun for a few hours, so it is definitely in a semi-shade position, isn't it?

I believe my growing zone is 11B because they say it never goes below mid or upper 40s and my "record" low past winter was +7.7C one night for a couple hours. Mostly 50s to upper 70s to low 80s F. I live here for only 9 months and one day in June we had 82F in shade. Perhaps it was a "heat wave" :-) Usually it goes to 77-78F in summer very often and at night it is 64F to 70F (during summer).

Edited July 3, 2015 by SoulofthePlace

[Pal Meir]

In the 1970s Archontophoenix cunnighamiana seeds were sold (in Germany) as "Seaforthia elegans". Maybe this "elegans" was meant.

[SoulofthePlace]

Does it happen (is it normal) that multiple fronds (of any such palm) grow and lay on top of each other?

Archontophoenix cunnighamiana or Archontophoenix alexandrae. Will find out, in the next decades that's for sure. Thanks for the info.

[Monòver]

I have one small Ptychosperma elegans and it is different.

Yours it likes Archontophoenix.

This is my Ptychosperma, sorry for the low quality pictures.

[Hammer]

Does it happen (is it normal) that multiple fronds (of any such palm) grow and lay on top of each other?

Archontophoenix cunnighamiana or Archontophoenix alexandrae. Will find out, in the next decades that's for sure. Thanks for the info.

I have had leaves do all kinds of crazy things including what you have described. I wouldn't sweat it.

[aztropic]

Does it happen (is it normal) that multiple fronds (of any such palm) grow and lay on top of each other?

Archontophoenix cunnighamiana or Archontophoenix alexandrae. Will find out, in the next decades that's for sure. Thanks for the info.

You definitely have a king palm there!

Here is a pic of one of my Ptychosperma fronds for comparison.Note the wide,'ripped off' looking leaf tips.Pretty standard...

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[Rafael]

I think you have a Cunninghamiana, quite common in the Azores, where i am temporarily.

I have ground planted this ptychosperma elegans, at 42 N, quite a different palm.

[DoomsDave]

Drew:

Your palm isn't a Ptychosperma.

Looks like an archontophoenix, which is a great palm, too.

And,please, show us more of the Azores! Tell us about it. Why don't you live in Hawaii instead?

I think you're the first person on PT from that paradise. Show us people, places, palms, and other stuff. Make us want to join you for a visit and hoist a glass or two (or three or . . . ) of the local beverage.

Especially if there's coconuts. Oh, heavens, we worship coconuts in California.

Welcome aboard.

More information to follow.

[DoomsDave]

I love Ptychosperma elegans. They're not fast, not like a washie, not even close. Or an Archie. But, fast enough that you'll get some growth in a few years.

Your concern made me appreciate mine that much more.

Here's some of my mob of Psycho Ptychos, elegans, I'm pretty sure.

Here's a close up of "praemorse" (ragged) leaflets. Archies have pointy ones.

Here's one that's in a pot in my backyard, in a bit too much sun. It's kind of stubby, but it's nice and green.

Here's a close up of the leaflets.

[DoomsDave]

That big grey trunk on the right side of my Ptycho mob shot is an Archontophoenix tuckeri.

Here's the full monty, more or less. This was about 6 feet tall back in 2008. Much bigger now, about 25 feet (8 M).

Shoot me a PM if you want some seeds. (Anyone?)

[Rafael]

Drew:

Your palm isn't a Ptychosperma.

Looks like an archontophoenix, which is a great palm, too.

And,please, show us more of the Azores! Tell us about it. Why don't you live in Hawaii instead?

I think you're the first person on PT from that paradise. Show us people, places, palms, and other stuff. Make us want to join you for a visit and hoist a glass or two (or three or . . . ) of the local beverage.

Especially if there's coconuts. Oh, heavens, we worship coconuts in California.

Welcome aboard.

More information to follow.

Counselour Dave

I am temporarily living in Azores since September 2014.

And i have already shared some info here http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/43199-azores-portugal/

Just in case

[SoulofthePlace]

Thanks everyone for identifying my palm as Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. As an adult palm it does not seem to have the bright green shaft above its trunk. I planted it in a tight spot thinking it will be a thin and not very tall palm, planning to plant another two right next to it in a triangular fashion. I don't think three Kings will fit in there or be happy there. Actually I really wanted to plant Pritchardia pacifica and I got the seeds, but several months later they did not germinate yet, even if they are described as easy germinators. And buying larger palms or even seedlings in my area is limited to no avail. I maybe may a little nursery here for scarcer palms, especially those that are wind resistant and that grows fast without much heat.

To answer Dave about Hawaii. Well, I was considering Hawaii and almost moved to Puerto Rico, but it was a swop deal (permuta) so I depended on an extremely limited market. The one I could afford was Azores and not Hawaii or Puerto Rico, where the deal was just too much money for me. By now that I lost my green card I am "limited" only to the EU and its islands. Honestly, I expected to find less chemtrailed skies in the Azores and I believe that is quite true. There are many things attractive for Azores, such as affordable property taxes, location, good climate, although a lot of 50s outside of summer. There are quite many people on Pico who speak some English, but one must remember that they still expect you to speak some Portuguese, even a s a newcomer or a tourist, it is expected of you by a lot of locals. Yet I could not find any European Portuguese language school or course, software, electronic translator device, or even a book, a phrasebook. So it is not easy to learn the language without all those. So sometimes I get into situations such as I start speaking a few words in Portuguese and I get a response that is more than I can handle and sometimes more of it even they realise I can not speak nor understand it and I try to learn it, but even a pronounciation is quite difficult. Gladly there are quite many people who will speak some English after they realise I tried Portuguese and failed, plus Portuguese written language has a lot oif words that are similar to English. And I am not even a native English speaker. You can probably notice that as well. So regarding Azores I recommend the following sites:

http://www.visitazores.com/en

http://www.azores.com/

http://www.azores.gov.pt/Portal/pt/principal/homepage.htm

Pico island and I can only speak for Ilha do Pico and not the entire Azores, has over 14 thousand inhabitants and the Mt. Pic is the tallest mountain and a volcano in Portugal at over 2300 m tall (about 7000 ft.) yet it is first or second tallest mountain in the world from the sea bottom actually. And it is in my backyard, perhaps 5 km away to its centre. Well, most people on the Pico island, those that are on the western side of the island and who's house is the "last up" have Mt. Pico in their backyard. I also have a couple volcanic caves on my territory (about 5 acres), which are unexplored yet, probably need to crawl inside. If you wanna know I am in Santa Luzia, right the midway between São Roque and Madalena. Welcome to visit, probably best is after a few months as I am still remodeling the house and it is a huge mess.

Regarding other islands such as Terceira and São Miguel, they have a much larger population than Pico, more shopping, more cultural events, also more crime as I was told, especially house break-ins on Terceira is a huge problem, must be exciting place to live for those who like to combine city life with growing tropicals. Pico on the other hand, it's 42x15km (29x9 miles) in size and has lots of worlds, little old towns all around it, to me its very beautiful and quite a quiet place to live, without much crime, I am talking even theft is low here. The neighbouring island of Faial, less than half size than Pico, has same population of 15T and is considered more cosmopolitan, due to all the inter-atlantic yachts taking a stop over there. It takes 20 minutes by ferry from Pico to Faial and vice versa, which is about 7 km strait and the advantage of Pico is also that from my yard I can see all three in multiple single spots: Pico volcano, Faial and São Jorge islands. Now São Jorge is much longer than Pico, it is over 50 km long and thinner, about 9 km thin and has a population of about 9000 souls.

Honestly, if I was offered a choice to do permuta (house swap with no money involved) to Pico and São Miguel (where I have ot been yet except the airport), I would have chosen São Miguel only because it has a Burger King there (just kidding), no.. because I am more of a city person and it is one-airplane-less-away from anywhere in the world. Yet Pico is safer and is an exciting isla as well, with much more affordable homes and much better oceanic and insular views, because one can see 3 other islands from Pico, while from São Miguel you can see none? And I wonder, I think Pico climarte is very slightly warmer than São MIguel.

I have moved here 9 months ago and have not been to other islands in the Azores. Everyone is welcome to visist island of Pico (Ilha do Pico) and drop by, cal me or message me in advance of your visit. I will be able to pick you up at the airport with my small car and drive you around the island, although I am not the best of "guides" as I have not explored everything on the island yet. Mostly have been just working on the house remodeling, reconstructing it, and germinating a few seeds for my hobby. I got 3 palms in the ground so far and a dragon tree. The other 2 palms are Wash. robusta and Senegal Date Palm, which in fact had it's new frond broken (snapped) in medium strong winds. Hopefully it will grow stronger fronds from now on.

I also noticed that my "Elegante" has now grown a much much thicker new frond (perhaps visible in the photos?). Perhaps lesson learned from being in all the winds and having its frond twisted and then broken by winds. I suppose this is how was palms learn tp protect themselves. Even the Washibusta has grown kind of twisted (wavy?) fronds after it had some of its fronds messed up by winds. Well, I am nowhere near the coast as there is no homes between me and the Pico volcano literally in my back yard, so I am 2 km from the coastline, on the main "highway" and about 150 metres above sea level. Those having gardens in the majour towns such as Madalena or São Roque they live much closer to the water and have the so-called city heat factor, where their temps are 1C-2C above than the rest.

I think coconut palm will grow here, but will not bear coconuts as it needs high heat for that. Do coconuts grow and bear in California? It's a shame but I have never made it to Texas or California, neither Hawaii.

Oh, and thanks for the beautiful photos. You guys have an exciting garden and plants there.

[Riddler]

I took this photo a couple of months back of a nice looking P. elegans at my parents property in Northern NSW.

[SoulofthePlace]

It was my misidentification since all I had was "Elegante" written on a plastic tag and all I could find under "elegan..." was Ptychosperma elegans. Perhaps Archontophoenix cunninghamia and Ptychosperma elegans are a close genus? They seem quite similar to untrained eye except the width of the ends of the frond fingers.

[SoulofthePlace]

Dave, as long as Archontophoenix tuckeri is wind resistant and fast growing I would like some seeds of it. Yet germinating seeds in the Azores is very hard if at all possible due to low heat. I became inventive and also bought a seed germinator, yet electricity per kwh is so expensive here that I stopped using the germinator. So, unless really rare, I prefer to get seedlings. And they only allow seedlings from within the European Union. As if the EU has tough standards, while I receive from Spain all seedlings that are not checked for diseases and pests, so I don't see what's the difference receiving a seedling from Spain, USA, Reunion, UK or New Caledonia.

Even the very easy-to-germinate Washingtonia took several months here to germinate and only after i covered the container with polycarbonate panel to make it more hot inside for a few hours a day. Washingtonia, very fast growers, the seedlings grow so slowly here in comparison to hotter but freezing climates of continental zones 7 through 9. I am also germinating Pinus pinea, which so far had a very unusually low germination rate of under 20% and are also growing much slower than in hotter climates, even if we have constantly now 17C-19C nights and 20C to 25C days. All of those grow much faster when days are 28C to 38C. Now regarding tomatos, bananas, oranges, I don't know as I planted them this year and am still researching and have no previous experiences to compare with.

[Shoowow]

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is indeed called Palmeira Elegante in the Azores, hence the confusion. I live in S. Miguel, where I just arrived in February after over two decades in Boston area. You'll pretty much be able to grow anything here, due to the mostly benign climate. I have bananas, oranges, avocados, guavas and more in my property that have been here for years and they all do well. The Azores used to be a major orange producer at one time. On the coconut discussion I also agree it's possible in the right place. One good thing going for us here is high humidity and high dew points in summer. The cool season is very long, however, as you mentioned, and that may spell trouble for a cocos. But they grow in Madeira, and the climate is only marginally warmer. I know that Pico has one of the warmest climates in the Azores, around the western side, with yearly averages in the upper 60s (near 20c) on the coast.

[SoulofthePlace]

Regarding Palmeira Elegante, I believe also I was told that its another name is Solitaire, thus this is how I misidentified it as Ptychosperma elegante (without looking its photos up). It was of course my fault and my mistake. I think it makes a lot of sense that nuseries provide a Latin name tag or even a passport with all its alternative names for each plant they sell to the customer. True To The Name. But that's too much to desire from professional growers. I now have read that these palms are occasionally for sale in box stores in the USA for as low as $3 and I paid about 25 or 35 € for a small 3 footer. Not a complaint. Small island, limited shopping. Happy to find anything to buy. In the beginning I could not even find shoes to buy in the supermarkets. You have to look for them, not easy to find those little shops with shoes hidden in the back. Someone told me there is someone else selling palms on the island but no one knows where exactly. I am now importing single seedlings from Spain, an expensive adventure,18-20€ per seedling plus 15€ to ship per each seedling, so it's up to 35€ for a tiny seedling. That's how I got my Kentiopsis oliviformis and now am getting Copernicia and Pseudophoenix ekmanii - world's slowest growing palm! Better than sitting and pulling my hair for not being able to find another source of a variety of better palms. Well, I hope I can develop a source within years. It's just there probably is no market for them on Pico. :-)

I believe within decades (if not already or if not immediately) some palms in the Azores will develop local characteristics, such as wind resistance, thus thicker fronds, low heat tolerance, etc. As a curiosity I had 6 CIDP palms that were visibly different than a regular Canary and it was grown from a 80 year old mother tree in Charleston, South Carolina. If anyone interested in these CIDP-Charleston I may still be able to find the source of them in SC. Regarding climate, they told me the south side of Pico island is warmer, naturally, but the northern side may be a bit protected by the two neighbouring islands.

[Monòver]

Souloftheplace, 25-35€ for this Archontophoenix, is not an expensive price.

It is the common price in spanish garden centers.

You can find cheap Archontophoenix, but you must buy in a few palm growers.

But 35€ per seedling is too expensive.

Last month i bought 8 palms from a canary seller.

The price with the ship was around 140€.

Good luck with your Archontophoenix.

[DoomsDave]

Drew:

Your palm isn't a Ptychosperma.

Looks like an archontophoenix, which is a great palm, too.

And,please, show us more of the Azores! Tell us about it. Why don't you live in Hawaii instead?

I think you're the first person on PT from that paradise. Show us people, places, palms, and other stuff. Make us want to join you for a visit and hoist a glass or two (or three or . . . ) of the local beverage.

Especially if there's coconuts. Oh, heavens, we worship coconuts in California.

Welcome aboard.

More information to follow.

Counselour Dave

I am temporarily living in Azores since September 2014.

And i have already shared some info here http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/43199-azores-portugal/

Just in case

OOPS!

Sorry Your Honor!

I stand corrected.

We can always have more pictures of the Azores.

[Shoowow]

Archotophoenix is very common in S Miguel. They can be bougth from nurseries at 5. In my opinion not the best palm to be exposed to wind. I'm attaching some photos of archotophoenix in a local park. I think Kentias are the best palms for the Azores, as climate is similar to origin. See photos. There's a nursery on the island growing thousands of Kentias!

Edited July 6, 2015 by Shoowow

[Tropicgardener]

_{Ptychosperma elegans is a fast growing palm in the tropics / subtropics............. It is locally native to this area and is abundant in some of the local rainforest areas and on many of the Whitsunday Islands.}

[SoulofthePlace]

Archotophoenix is very common in S Miguel. They can be bougth from nurseries at 5. In my opinion not the best palm to be exposed to wind. I'm attaching some photos of archotophoenix in a local park. I think Kentias are the best palms for the Azores, as climate is similar to origin. See photos. There's a nursery on the island growing thousands of Kentias!

Thanks for the photos. I find it hard to post photos here. Kentia is Howea forsteriana, isn't it? To me it looks similar to Archontophoenix (King). What is the growth rate of Kentia (Howea?)? The local nursery on Pico island does not have it. Do they ship from São Miguel to Pico? Do you know the nursery's email or website?

Edited July 6, 2015 by SoulofthePlace

[Shoowow]

Yes, Kentia is howea f. Pretty different looking from King. Looks more like a leaner coconut. Has swollen base and even leans. Check these. I'm sure the nursery can send to Pico. I'll check with them and let you know.

[SoulofthePlace]

Yes, Kentia is howea f. Pretty different looking from King. Looks more like a leaner coconut. Has swollen base and even leans. Check these. I'm sure the nursery can send to Pico. I'll check with them and let you know.

Excellent, thanks a lot.