ID these Palm Seeds

[Mohsen]

When you look at my photo of the Howea belmoreana seedlings in your other thread on germination projects you can see that the seeds are still almost on or very near the surface.

thanks Pal, BTW what is Kokohum and also we don't have seramis in Australa , can I use something else?

Kokohum is made of coconut fibre, but for germination you can use peat moss or anything similar. – Instead of seramis you my use perlite or so, but as it is not so stable you have to be careful that the soil mix doesn’t get soggy or too wet.

Thanks Pal

I also have Vermiculite , could it be used instead of seramis?

also I have sphagnum peat moss which I have been using for other seeds, can I use it as I am doing it in a plastic box? see picture

 

 

[Pal Meir]

Yes, you can use all that. – The problem with L. insigne will come later: It likes oxygen rich light acidic soil and regualr watering, but it hates wet soggy soil with too much humus, standing water, and limestone or other alkaline carbonates. In its habitat it grows on steep rocky slopes with best drainage in altitudes between 500 and 1,800 m, often near waterfalls, in a humid atmosphere. The place should be very light, but when still young not in direct sun. – But you should visit the palm once more and see if there are still some mature, yellow or brown, split (!) fruits.

[Mohsen]

Yes, you can use all that. – The problem with L. insigne will come later: It likes oxygen rich light acidic soil and regualr watering, but it hates wet soggy soil with too much humus, standing water, and limestone or other alkaline carbonates. In its habitat it grows on steep rocky slopes with best drainage in altitudes between 500 and 1,800 m, often near waterfalls, in a humid atmosphere. The place should be very light, but when still young not in direct sun. – But you should visit the palm once more and see if there are still some mature, yellow or brown, split (!) fruits.

Thanks Pal

Do I have L. insigne seeds or L. weddellianum?

[Mohsen]

so far from my all seeds only Phoenix ones germinated ( after 5 weeks)

 

[Pal Meir]

Yes, you can use all that. – The problem with L. insigne will come later: It likes oxygen rich light acidic soil and regualr watering, but it hates wet soggy soil with too much humus, standing water, and limestone or other alkaline carbonates. In its habitat it grows on steep rocky slopes with best drainage in altitudes between 500 and 1,800 m, often near waterfalls, in a humid atmosphere. The place should be very light, but when still young not in direct sun. – But you should visit the palm once more and see if there are still some mature, yellow or brown, split (!) fruits.

Thanks Pal

Do I have L. insigne seeds or L. weddellianum?

Since your fruits are ca. 2.5 cm long the trunk of the "Lyto. weddell." on your photo has at least a diameter of 8 cm, therefore it it is definitely a Lyto. insigne (= Syagrus insignis BECC. 1916 or Cocos insignis MART. 1854). The two species L. weddell. and L. insigne had been wrongly put together to one species L. weddell. between 1995  and 2010. That may be the reason for the incorrect label.

[Mohsen]

Yes, you can use all that. – The problem with L. insigne will come later: It likes oxygen rich light acidic soil and regualr watering, but it hates wet soggy soil with too much humus, standing water, and limestone or other alkaline carbonates. In its habitat it grows on steep rocky slopes with best drainage in altitudes between 500 and 1,800 m, often near waterfalls, in a humid atmosphere. The place should be very light, but when still young not in direct sun. – But you should visit the palm once more and see if there are still some mature, yellow or brown, split (!) fruits.

Thanks Pal

Do I have L. insigne seeds or L. weddellianum?

Since your fruits are ca. 2.5 cm long the trunk of the "Lyto. weddell." on your photo has at least a diameter of 8 cm, therefore it it is definitely a Lyto. insigne (= Syagrus insignis BECC. 1916 or Cocos insignis MART. 1854). The two species L. weddell. and L. insigne had been wrongly put together to one species L. weddell. between 1995  and 2010. That may be the reason for the incorrect label.

Yes, you can use all that. – The problem with L. insigne will come later: It likes oxygen rich light acidic soil and regualr watering, but it hates wet soggy soil with too much humus, standing water, and limestone or other alkaline carbonates. In its habitat it grows on steep rocky slopes with best drainage in altitudes between 500 and 1,800 m, often near waterfalls, in a humid atmosphere. The place should be very light, but when still young not in direct sun. – But you should visit the palm once more and see if there are still some mature, yellow or brown, split (!) fruits.

Thanks Pal

Do I have L. insigne seeds or L. weddellianum?

Since your fruits are ca. 2.5 cm long the trunk of the "Lyto. weddell." on your photo has at least a diameter of 8 cm, therefore it it is definitely a Lyto. insigne (= Syagrus insignis BECC. 1916 or Cocos insignis MART. 1854). The two species L. weddell. and L. insigne had been wrongly put together to one species L. weddell. between 1995  and 2010. That may be the reason for the incorrect label.

Yes, you can use all that. – The problem with L. insigne will come later: It likes oxygen rich light acidic soil and regualr watering, but it hates wet soggy soil with too much humus, standing water, and limestone or other alkaline carbonates. In its habitat it grows on steep rocky slopes with best drainage in altitudes between 500 and 1,800 m, often near waterfalls, in a humid atmosphere. The place should be very light, but when still young not in direct sun. – But you should visit the palm once more and see if there are still some mature, yellow or brown, split (!) fruits.

Pal

I went to SRBG yesterday and could walk around for 1 hour ...This time I took more pic from your favorite Lyto as I know you like it. I also made sure that none of them (as far as I could see) has diameter more than 5cm and also I checked all their tags and all says “L. weddellianum” .

 

The interesting thing was that they looked very the same but had different sizes of seeds ?! Please see below pics, I hope you like them

[Mohsen]

Edited October 10, 2015 by Mohsen

[Mohsen]

[Mohsen]

[Mohsen]

[Mohsen]

[Mohsen]

[Mohsen]

[Mohsen]

[Pal Meir]

Mohsen, thank you sooo much for your photos of this beautiful Lyto wedd collection! ALL of these palms you posted above are definitely typical L. weddellianum. But the pic you posted in your Sydney RBG thread looks quite different. Perhaps the perspective may be problematical but it seems that the stem of that Lyto was much thicker than the stems of the Lytos in this thread. Did you measure the girth or diameter of that palm too? I post here an enlarged detail of your photo once more which shows that the diameter in relation to the size of the seeds looks much bigger than in the case of the other palms.

And your question relating the size of the seeds: The size can vary between ca. 15 and 25 mm for both species. The shape of both species L. wedd and L. insigne is totally the same (much different from L. hoehnei), so it is possible that the "other" Lyto was grown up from a seed batch sold as L. wedd.

Here 2 pics:

(1) Detail of your photo of the different (?) Lyto with thicker trunk

(2) Three seeds of already germinated Lytos: small insigne + middle wedd + large insigne

[Mohsen]

Pal

Unfortunately I couldn't find the previous Lyto ...But I am almost sure that one had a thicker trunk than the new ones...

 

[Pal Meir]

Pal

Unfortunately I couldn't find the previous Lyto ...But I am almost sure that one had a thicker trunk than the new ones...

 

Mohsen, try to find it again and to collect this time ripe seeds! It is very hard and at present almost impossible to get seeds of L. insigne. They are much rarer than seeds of L. wedd. And I hope that the seeds are no hybrids with the neighbouring L. wedds. …

L. wedd. is an excellent and my most favourite palm for indoors, but L. insigne would be much better suited for your garden, I believe.

[Pal Meir]

A passage from Jones 1994 "Palms" and a photo of 1½ year old seedlings of L. wedd. and L. insigne, showing their differences:

[Pal Meir]

This nice palm is not a Lytocaryum weddell., but a Linospadix (minor?) native to NE Australia.

[Mohsen]

A passage from Jones 1994 "Palms" and a photo of 1½ year old seedlings of L. wedd. and L. insigne, showing their differences:

Thanks Pal

 

I will give it another visit for sure ...as they are green do you think when is the best to come back in hope of seeing ripe seeds?

[Pal Meir]

A passage from Jones 1994 "Palms" and a photo of 1½ year old seedlings of L. wedd. and L. insigne, showing their differences:

Thanks Pal

I will give it another visit for sure ...as they are green do you think when is the best to come back in hope of seeing ripe seeds?

According to Boudet Fernandes (1994, p. 99) the fruiting seasons in the state of Espírito Santo / Brazil are July and September to November. ES is nearer to the equator than Sydney, but the altitudes of their habitat are much higher (500 to 1,800 m).

[Mohsen]

On 10/7/2015, 1:35:32, Pal Meir said:

Hmm, the seeds don’t look bad, so just try it!  – At first put the seeds inside the medium (1st photo with Kokohum, 25-30°C), perhaps 1-2 cm deep. When they show the radicle or at the latest when you can see the first plumule plant sem in pots with the nut on the suface or only half in (2nd photo showing the tip of first plumule). When you put them in a pot use a mineral rich soil mix (e.g. 3rd photo, cf. also https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmeir/15804966142) with excellent (!!!) drainage. Water regularly but don’t leave any water in the saucer (or under the pot: no "wet feet"!).

Pal, I was checking the "L. insigne" seeds which we were not sure if they were ripe or not and I just noticed that one has a tiny radicle so even if they were completely green and looked immature still is sprouting   ...thet other also looked inflated and I noticed small liquid came out of some of them ?! is this normal or they been rotted

so now , should I wait or it is the time to move it into pot using your above formula ...I wish we had seramis  here  

[Pal Meir]

26 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Pal, I was checking the "L. insigne" seeds which we were not sure if they were ripe or not and I just noticed that one has a tiny radicle so even if they were completely green and looked immature still is sprouting   ...thet other also looked inflated and I noticed small liquid came out of some of them ?! is this normal or they been rotted

so now , should I wait or it is the time to move it into pot using your above formula ...I wish we had seramis  here  

Congrats!  The part you can see now is the seed petiole. This seed petiole should grow downwards. It will separate into cotyledonary sheath (upwards) and radicle (downwards). Be extremly careful, it can break easily! Don’t plant it yet into the recommended soil mix, wait until it looks like the attached photo. – Liquid is a sign of rotting, how do the seeds smell?

[Mohsen]

Thanks Pal

i couldn't notice very bad smell but I will double check ...

[Pal Meir]

55 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal

i couldn't notice very bad smell but I will double check ...

When you would go once more to the BotGardens maybe you could pick up some mature seeds now … And take more photos of that tree.

[Mohsen]

On 11/16/2015, 6:26:57, Pal Meir said:

On 11/16/2015, 4:45:17, Pal Meir said:

Congrats!  The part you can see now is the seed petiole. This seed petiole should grow downwards. It will separate into cotyledonary sheath (upwards) and radicle (downwards). Be extremly careful, it can break easily! Don’t plant it yet into the recommended soil mix, wait until it looks like the attached photo. – Liquid is a sign of rotting, how do the seeds smell?

When you would go once more to the BotGardens maybe you could pick up some mature seeds now … And take more photos of that tree.

Pal, I had a look at the seed and it seems the Petiole is forming a 90 degree angle now...is this normal? it is in a zip bag now.

[Pal Meir]

Yes, it is normal: Plant it into a ca. 9 cm deep pot with the petiole showing downwards. Use a very fast draining soil mix.

[Mohsen]

On 11/21/2015, 6:58:40, Pal Meir said:

Yes, it is normal: Plant it into a ca. 9 cm deep pot with the petiole showing downwards. Use a very fast draining soil mix.

Thanks Pal...that's good...we have here some pine barks which they use as mulch and also perlite , so should I mix  half of each ? no peat moss or potting mix ? is it not better to use "Vermiculite" instead of Perlite?

http://www.bunnings.com.au/brunnings-5l-vermiculite-_p3016191

[Pal Meir]

4 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal...that's good...we have here some pine barks which they use as mulch and also perlite , so should I mix  half of each ? no peat moss or potting mix ? is it not better to use "Vermiculite" instead of Perlite?

http://www.bunnings.com.au/brunnings-5l-vermiculite-_p3016191

Maybe, I don’t know. The problem with perlite and vermiculite is that both keep too much moisture so that the drainage is not fast enough. This is the reason why I am using Seramis. Perlite and vermiculite might be good when the plant has become bigger and established a strong root system. — If you plant the young seedlings into smaller pots (e.g. 8x8x9cm) the drainage may be faster.

[Mohsen]

It might be possible to order Seramis from Germany? do you have any website ?

[Pal Meir]

I don’t know if they will ship also to Australia, here a website of amazon.de:

http://www.amazon.de/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=seramis+pflanzgranulat&tag=googhydr08-21&index=aps&hvadid=60473575630&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7924879978803860669&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_6yayb9ev6t_b

They seem be present only in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland: http://seramis.com/

Here is an e-mail address: info@seramis.com

[Mohsen]

19 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

I don’t know if they will ship also to Australia, here a website of amazon.de:

http://www.amazon.de/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=seramis+pflanzgranulat&tag=googhydr08-21&index=aps&hvadid=60473575630&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7924879978803860669&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_6yayb9ev6t_b

They seem be present only in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland: http://seramis.com/

Here is an e-mail address: info@seramis.com

Thanks Pal

I sent an email to them

[Pal Meir]

5 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal

I sent an email to them

I would send it to you, but the postage is incredibly expensive:

[Mohsen]

58 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

I would send it to you, but the postage is incredibly expensive:

Thanks Pal for even considering this   it is very expensive in deed 

I found 2 similar product on Ebay but not sure Seramis is the brand or the name of that material ?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-5l-Seramis-Granulat-/350594825586?#vi-content

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-5l-Seramis-Granulat-/350594825586?hash=item51a1147d72:m:msN1RjM4bi0WoBTC60r4PXQ

[Pal Meir]

 

20 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal for even considering this   it is very expensive in deed 

I found 2 similar product on Ebay but not sure Seramis is the brand or the name of that material ?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-5l-Seramis-Granulat-/350594825586?#vi-content

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-5l-Seramis-Granulat-/350594825586?hash=item51a1147d72:m:msN1RjM4bi0WoBTC60r4PXQ

It is the brand (the material is something like burnt loam "ceramics"). Both links lead to the same shop in Germany: https://kakteen-sukkulenten.1a-shops.eu/

I have found another address on a Belgian website: http://www.seramis.nl/Wereldwijd.html

 

[Mohsen]

Thanks Pal, That would be great if they have it in Melbourne , already sent email and will call them tomorrow as well :)

[Pal Meir]

4 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal, That would be great if they have it in Melbourne , already sent email and will call them tomorrow as well :)

Good luck! (It was a Dutch website, not a Belgian.)

[Mohsen]

On 11/22/2015, 5:58:32, Pal Meir said:

Good luck! (It was a Dutch website, not a Belgian.)

I am in negotiation with Alec...meanwhile , I noticed I have "Horticultural Charcoal" which is for Orchids mostly...could Seramis be replaced with this?

[Pal Meir]

1 hour ago, Mohsen said:

I am in negotiation with Alec...meanwhile , I noticed I have "Horticultural Charcoal" which is for Orchids mostly...could Seramis be replaced with this?

No no, not Seramis, but perhaps a part of the pine bark. This charcoal is for epyphytes, but L. insigne is growing in mineral soils. If you can’t get enough Seramis try it with very coarse sand. Or ground / finely crashed LECA.

[Mohsen]

On 11/23/2015, 4:05:42, Pal Meir said:

No no, not Seramis, but perhaps a part of the pine bark. This charcoal is for epyphytes, but L. insigne is growing in mineral soils. If you can’t get enough Seramis try it with very coarse sand. Or ground / finely crashed LECA.

Pal,

we have pine bark which we use as mulch so no problem with that part, how about using " Propagation Sand" instead of "Seramis" ?

see below link :

http://www.bunnings.com.au/brunnings-5l-propagation-sand-_p3018363