Erna Nixon Park

[Yunder Wækraus]

I visited Erna Nixon park today for my first time. I've seen a lot of Florida wild land, but I was really amazed by the quality of the old growth vegetation in this little park. It's not more than 15-20 minutes from my house, but it's just far enough inland to have a completely different vibe. Whereas the hammock hike in Archie Car 15 miles south of my house is dominated by gumbo limbo and strangler figs, this park has zero strangler figs (at least none that I saw), zero gumbo limbo, but there are absolutely massive live oaks festooned with multiple species of epiphytes. My favorite aspect of the park is the quality of its palms, many of which are growing directly out of the water. I wish I had taken more photos, but my kids were acting up, and I only got one good shot. This picture has both S. Palmetto and S. Repens (blue variety) growing out of marshy, fern-covered ground. Look closely, and you can see there are actually a few red leaves proving it's actually fall this far inland.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Beautiful, but I really wish the Feds and the State of Florida would do a LOT more to protect what is left of the native habitat there.  When I lived in Coral Springs in 2000 and 2001, I was horrified at how TOTALLY OVERDEVELOPED South Florida is, and unfortunately, the Keys have been RUINED by overdevelopment.  When I was a teenager visiting the Keys with my parents, there was still a lot of live patch reefs, healthy large sponges, and massive areas of healthy turtle grass beds right off the shoreline of the Keys for good snorkeling with visibility of 40ft.  The offshore main reefs were still alive too with even better visibility, but when I lived down there, and visited the Keys, there were no more patch reefs and healthy large sponges right off the shore, and the visibility was much less.  My wife and I made a trip there in Dec. 2010, and the ONLY live coral I found in front of our hotel in Islamorada was a very small patch of star coral about the size of the palm of your hand.  ALL the patch reefs that once lived there were nothing but DEAD CORAL RUBBLE, and the turtle grass looked horrible with an encrusting brownish colored algae growing on the blades.  The visibility too, was only about 15ft. at most.  Even at Bahia Honda, the State Park in the Lower Keys, the conditions weren't any better.  In contrast in 1983 and 1985 when my parents and I took summer vacations to Key West, there was a live patch reef just off Smather's Beach along S. Roosevelt St.  There was a live ledge about 2.5ft. tall with live star coral, sea fans, sponges, and pinked tip anemones growing on it with lots of tropical fish and healthy turtle grass beds all around the patch reef ledge.  The ledge was just a short snorkeling distance straight off the beach in about 5ft. of water.  I would venture to say it is totally dead and nothing but limestone rubble now.

[Zeeth]

On October 16, 2015 at 21:13:28, Yunder Wækraus said:

I visited Erna Nixon park today for my first time. I've seen a lot of Florida wild land, but I was really amazed by the quality of the old growth vegetation in this little park. It's not more than 15-20 minutes from my house, but it's just far enough inland to have a completely different vibe. Whereas the hammock hike in Archie Car 15 miles south of my house is dominated by gumbo limbo and strangler figs, this park has zero strangler figs (at least none that I saw), zero gumbo limbo, but there are absolutely massive live oaks festooned with multiple species of epiphytes. My favorite aspect of the park is the quality of its palms, many of which are growing directly out of the water. I wish I had taken more photos, but my kids were acting up, and I only got one good shot. This picture has both S. Palmetto and S. Repens (blue variety) growing out of marshy, fern-covered ground. Look closely, and you can see there are actually a few red leaves proving it's actually fall this far inland.

 

Sounds like an interesting park. We have a similar thing in Manatee county, where Emerson point preserve is on an island and is full of gumbo limbo, strangler figs, wild royal palms and other tropical species, whereas Rye preserve a few miles has none of that, but the live oaks do have a lot of different Tillandsia species and Encyclia tampensis can be spotted in a few locations. 

[Zeeth]

Here's some of the cool stuff that you can find at Emerson point. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

On 1/2/2016, 11:43:33, Zeeth said:

Here's some of the cool stuff that you can find at Emerson point. 

Wow! What's the origin story for those royals?

[Yunder Wækraus]

On 1/2/2016, 10:55:27, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Beautiful, but I really wish the Feds and the State of Florida would do a LOT more to protect what is left of the native habitat there.  When I lived in Coral Springs in 2000 and 2001, I was horrified at how TOTALLY OVERDEVELOPED South Florida is, and unfortunately, the Keys have been RUINED by overdevelopment.  When I was a teenager visiting the Keys with my parents, there was still a lot of live patch reefs, healthy large sponges, and massive areas of healthy turtle grass beds right off the shoreline of the Keys for good snorkeling with visibility of 40ft.  The offshore main reefs were still alive too with even better visibility, but when I lived down there, and visited the Keys, there were no more patch reefs and healthy large sponges right off the shore, and the visibility was much less.  My wife and I made a trip there in Dec. 2010, and the ONLY live coral I found in front of our hotel in Islamorada was a very small patch of star coral about the size of the palm of your hand.  ALL the patch reefs that once lived there were nothing but DEAD CORAL RUBBLE, and the turtle grass looked horrible with an encrusting brownish colored algae growing on the blades.  The visibility too, was only about 15ft. at most.  Even at Bahia Honda, the State Park in the Lower Keys, the conditions weren't any better.  In contrast in 1983 and 1985 when my parents and I took summer vacations to Key West, there was a live patch reef just off Smather's Beach along S. Roosevelt St.  There was a live ledge about 2.5ft. tall with live star coral, sea fans, sponges, and pinked tip anemones growing on it with lots of tropical fish and healthy turtle grass beds all around the patch reef ledge.  The ledge was just a short snorkeling distance straight off the beach in about 5ft. of water.  I would venture to say it is totally dead and nothing but limestone rubble now.

I wish I could have seen it. Visited Bahia Honda for my first time in Dec 2014.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

2 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I wish I could have seen it. Visited Bahia Honda for my first time in Dec 2014.

Yeah, it's a real shame what has been done to the Keys and the Glades too for that matter.  From what I understand there is a spot in the northeast corner of Florida Bay where Key Largo comes up to the mainland that is supposedly so polluted and devoid of life that it is called the "Dead Zone", just like off the Mississippi Delta.  Apparently, like in Louisiana it is from the many year of chemical fertilizer and pesticide runoff.  What a shame, since both areas used to be the most teaming and healthy fisheries in the U.S.  By the way, thanks to the B.P. oil spill, the Chandeleur Islands off the east coast of the delta are dead.  These were mangrove islands about 28 miles off the east side of the delta and were bird rookeries.  Also, from what I understand, the fishing there used to be great, but not any more.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

2 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I wish I could have seen it. Visited Bahia Honda for my first time in Dec 2014.

Bahia Honda used to GORGEOUS about 30+ years ago.  I loved the Atlantic side and the crescent shaped beach on the Gulf Side lined with Jamaican Tall coconut palms.

[Zeeth]

9 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Wow! What's the origin story for those royals?

They're growing wild. There are a ton of them throughout the park, but these are most easily accessible by the trail. There are a few with a little more trunk really deep into the forest. There are also some tall ones planted by the original property owners in 1910 that are still around. 

I'm not sure why there aren't any taller ones throughout the park though. Maybe whichever bird or bat is distributing the seeds is a newcomer to the island. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

24 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

They're growing wild. There are a ton of them throughout the park, but these are most easily accessible by the trail. There are a few with a little more trunk really deep into the forest. There are also some tall ones planted by the original property owners in 1910 that are still around. 

I'm not sure why there aren't any taller ones throughout the park though. Maybe whichever bird or bat is distributing the seeds is a newcomer to the island. 

Is this the northernmost naturalized stand in FL? I haven't seen any volunteers near me.

[Zeeth]

I can't speak for your coast, but I'm pretty sure it's the northernmost on this coast. It's at 27.53˚ north. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

8 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I can't speak for your coast, but I'm pretty sure it's the northernmost on this coast. It's at 27.53˚ north. 

That's just a bit south of me. I'm just a hair over 28 degrees north

[Zeeth]

16 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

That's just a bit south of me. I'm just a hair over 28 degrees north

Yeah you guys have the advantage of being closer to the gulf stream so the zone 10 spots extend a little north of where they do here.

[Yunder Wækraus]

12 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Yeah you guys have the advantage of being closer to the gulf stream so the zone 10 spots extend a little north of where they do here.

I can tell you that there are zero royals of the size of your old ones over here, so we might not be a long term 10.

[Zeeth]

Yeah that was one thing that stood out to me when I was visiting Brevard. Old royals are pretty common in Manatee county, here are some examples:

https://goo.gl/RoQbBd

https://goo.gl/4zE8yt

https://goo.gl/MxykYq

 

I think the tallest royal I saw in Brevard was this one

I wonder what freeze wiped out all of the Brevard royals.

[DoomsDave]

I think a reason for a lack of taller royals could be: (a) lightning strike or (b) this is a situation where they're being aided and abetted by people in moving northward.

[Yunder Wækraus]

40 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Yeah that was one thing that stood out to me when I was visiting Brevard. Old royals are pretty common in Manatee county, here are some examples:

https://goo.gl/RoQbBd

https://goo.gl/4zE8yt

https://goo.gl/MxykYq

 

I think the tallest royal I saw in Brevard was this one

I wonder what freeze wiped out all of the Brevard royals.

Well, there are several of about that size or better, but I've learned the hard way that they are afflicted by salt spray. Mine looks terrible. It looks worse than my NorCal king palms did after the Dec 2013 freeze dropped temps to the mid 20s for multiple nights. And it's all because of salt spray. There's a high rise (condos or hotel, can't remember) about a 1/2 mile from my house that overlooks the ocean. It has lovely royals planted against its western face, and they are thereby fully protected from all salt spray. There's not a trace of damage on their leaves. If you move inland even a block, there are many nice royals, and some have impressive trunks. But they're not old. My theory is this: they were never the most common planting up here (we'd need historical photos to prove that), and most buildings on the island postdate 1950, so there just isn't the time scale like there is in South Bay and Belle Glade for plantings to hang on since the 1920s and 1930s. If we add salt spray and what I believe is exceptionally poor soil for royals (thus the lack of volunteers here whereas the forest of them in my uncles backyard are all naturalized volunteers in South Bay), I think we have our smoking gun. Of course, lighting is no joke here, and the vicissitudes of hurricanes, mini-tornadoes, and homeowners who are wont to remove larger plantings at times all combine to limit the number of longterm survivors. I know the 1989 freeze killed royals up here, but I believe they're a bit more cold hardy than coconuts, and I doubt that all were killed even then.

[Zeeth]

I noticed the salt spray when I was visiting, but, as you said, they weren't affected when you go about a block from the ocean, where the climate is still very good.

 

 

I think I may have found the smoking gun for the relative abundance of old royals over here compared to in Brevard: Reasoner's nursery. It's a nursery which has been operating from Bradenton since 1881, and they sold many palms. According to a newspaper article I found, they collected seeds and plants from royal palms they found growing in the Everglades in 1884, and so were the first nursery to offer royal palms for sale. 

 

I believe they supplied the royals growing in Emerson point, and those growing in front of the historic Manatee river hotel.  

 

This is the Manatee River Hotel, completed in 1926. You can see the royals next to the cars

 

Today. 

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

4 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I noticed the salt spray when I was visiting, but, as you said, they weren't affected when you go about a block from the ocean, where the climate is still very good.

 

 

I think I may have found the smoking gun for the relative abundance of old royals over here compared to in Brevard: Reasoner's nursery. It's a nursery which has been operating from Bradenton since 1881, and they sold many palms. According to a newspaper article I found, they collected seeds and plants from royal palms they found growing in the Everglades in 1884, and so were the first nursery to offer royal palms for sale. 

 

I believe they supplied the royals growing in Emerson point, and those growing in front of the historic Manatee river hotel.  

 

This is the Manatee River Hotel, completed in 1926. You can see the royals next to the cars

 

Today. 

 

Wow! There wouldn't be permanent White settlement in the Glades till the 1910s, and with the exception of the odd home and pineapple plantation, our island probably didn't have real settlement till the 1950s.

[Zeeth]

That must be it then. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

30 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

That must be it then. 

Is the soil better on your coast? Perhaps that explains the volunteer royals. I suppose there might be some here I've missed, but I don't think so. When we were in Belle Glade for my aunt's funeral, I notices volunteer royals everywhere, including unmaintained canal edges. I've seen nothing like that here. Also, are you wetter there? Even a 10"-a-year difference might be meaningful. In NorCal, I never saw a volunteer CIDP in Stockton, but after I bought a home about 60 miles away in Fairfield, I saw many of them along the sides of the freeway or other roads. The climate in Fairfield is 9a at the lowest elevation and 9b at the highest, and Stockton is 9a with 9b pockets downtown, so absolute lows cannot explain that difference. Fairfield does, however, get about 8-12" more rain each winter, and I think that explains volunteer CIDPs in Solano County vs. San Joaquin County.

[Zeeth]

The soil here is pretty sandy, but there are some spots of rich soil near Manatee river. We get about 50-55 inches of rain per year, with the driest month having 2.15 inches on average. 

Royal volunteers are pretty common in downtown Bradenton. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

11 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Well, there are several of about that size or better, but I've learned the hard way that they are afflicted by salt spray. Mine looks terrible. It looks worse than my NorCal king palms did after the Dec 2013 freeze dropped temps to the mid 20s for multiple nights. And it's all because of salt spray. There's a high rise (condos or hotel, can't remember) about a 1/2 mile from my house that overlooks the ocean. It has lovely royals planted against its western face, and they are thereby fully protected from all salt spray. There's not a trace of damage on their leaves. If you move inland even a block, there are many nice royals, and some have impressive trunks. But they're not old. My theory is this: they were never the most common planting up here (we'd need historical photos to prove that), and most buildings on the island postdate 1950, so there just isn't the time scale like there is in South Bay and Belle Glade for plantings to hang on since the 1920s and 1930s. If we add salt spray and what I believe is exceptionally poor soil for royals (thus the lack of volunteers here whereas the forest of them in my uncles backyard are all naturalized volunteers in South Bay), I think we have our smoking gun. Of course, lighting is no joke here, and the vicissitudes of hurricanes, mini-tornadoes, and homeowners who are wont to remove larger plantings at times all combine to limit the number of longterm survivors. I know the 1989 freeze killed royals up here, but I believe they're a bit more cold hardy than coconuts, and I doubt that all were killed even then.

Salt spray is a problem for them at South Padre Island too.  There is really tall condo or hotel there that has two in front of it (facing west towards the Laguna Madre, with the Gulf on the east back side of the building) that must be 65 to 70ft. tall in overall height that are totally protected from the salt spray.  Unfortunately these were planted so close to the building that when riding past the building, they look like they are leaning slightly outward toward the street.  These are presumably Cuban Royals, so they should have the perfectly straight trunks.  Cuban Royals always look better with wide straight trunks, but I have noticed that the Florida Royals often have a slightly bent and somewhat narrower trunk and they seem to grow somewhat taller too, which makes me still classify them as their own distinct type of royal.  Anyway, the royals at South Padre too close to the Gulf Sea Breeze which can REALLY be strong some months out of the year, look pretty shabby, but the ones just a block or so away with a little protection from the spray and that receive adequate water look good.  You are right about royals being more cold hardy than coconuts, as there is a nice old royal near the Old campus of Del Mar College in a 9B part of Corpus that is about 40- 45ft. tall in overall height that survived the 2011 freeze, and probably was in the ground during the 2004 snowstorm here.   The 2011 freeze killed all the Corpus Christi coconut palms (the handful that were growing here) but the one I have described on Ocean Dr. yet the older more established royals survived.  Also, there are a few royals in Galveston, a very cool 10A Climate that is TOO COOL in the winter for coconuts.

[Yunder Wækraus]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Salt spray is a problem for them at South Padre Island too.  There is really tall condo or hotel there that has two in front of it (facing west towards the Laguna Madre, with the Gulf on the east back side of the building) that must be 65 to 70ft. tall in overall height that are totally protected from the salt spray.  Unfortunately these were planted so close to the building that when riding past the building, they look like they are leaning slightly outward toward the street.  These are presumably Cuban Royals, so they should have the perfectly straight trunks.  Cuban Royals always look better with wide straight trunks, but I have noticed that the Florida Royals often have a slightly bent and somewhat narrower trunk and they seem to grow somewhat taller too, which makes me still classify them as their own distinct type of royal.  Anyway, the royals at South Padre too close to the Gulf Sea Breeze which can REALLY be strong some months out of the year, look pretty shabby, but the ones just a block or so away with a little protection from the spray and that receive adequate water look good.  You are right about royals being more cold hardy than coconuts, as there is a nice old royal near the Old campus of Del Mar College in a 9B part of Corpus that is about 40- 45ft. tall in overall height that survived the 2011 freeze, and probably was in the ground during the 2004 snowstorm here.   The 2011 freeze killed all the Corpus Christi coconut palms (the handful that were growing here) but the one I have described on Ocean Dr. yet the older more established royals survived.  Also, there are a few royals in Galveston, a very cool 10A Climate that is TOO COOL in the winter for coconuts.

That does sound right, and the fact that royals are being grown in parts of SoCal and AZ where no coconuts csn grow is further evidence that royals handle both coolness and cold better.

[Palmə häl′ik]

Is this Emerson Point north or south of TerraCeia Keith?  

[Zeeth]

It's south, but I haven't explored the Terra Ceia preserve to see if royals are naturalizing in there or not. 

 

The ones at the Haley house are impressive though. They were planted at around the same time the ones at Emerson point were planted (around 1909), but they look much healthier. 

https://goo.gl/inQB7c

 

[Jimbean]

On 1/5/2016, 5:25:05, Yunder Wækraus said:

I can tell you that there are zero royals of the size of your old ones over here, so we might not be a long term 10.

Yeah there are!  There is some faint naturalization around here too.  There are volunteers popping up here in Merritt Island, and I believe I have seen them somewhere down in Melbourne too.  There is one very tall, old royal in downtown Merritt Island. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Jimbean

[Zeeth]

9 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Yeah there are!  There is some faint naturalization around here too.  There are volunteers popping up here in Merritt Island, and I believe I have seen them somewhere down in Melbourne too.  There is one very tall, old royal in downtown Merritt Island. 

Can you post a google maps of the old royal in downtown Merritt Island?

[Jimbean]

I was looking for them and my google map keeps crashing. 

[Jimbean]

There is an old one behind Merritt Island high school, another on the FIT campus, I think two along US-1 in Palm Bay, there are a few old but not that tall ones in South Merritt Island, and there used to be a number of old tall beat up ones along the beach out of Patrick (~60 foot tall). 

[Zeeth]

Where would you say the tallest one in the county is?