Coconuts in New Delhi?

[DoomsDave]

Howdyall

 

Back in ancient times, I ran a couple of garden shops, one of which was in Diamond Bar, east of Los Angeles, and a suburb of India. A lot of Indians there. Some of them wanted to grow coconuts. Two guys came in looking for some, and when I told them coconuts didn't grow in LA, they said they knew people who grew them in New Delhi. "Just give them seawater once in a while" they said.

So, is this true? I'm sure coconuts grow all along the Indian coast, but what about inland?

Anyone know?

 

[Laaz]

I would say no...   Coconut growing areas of India

[Zeeth]

Yes, they do grow in New Delhi. We have a PT member named Kumar who has told me about them before from his visits. The tall types do much better than the dwarf types there though. The Himalayas prevent arctic intrusions from Siberia, but they're so high that they can actually be the cause of cold fronts (with temperatures below freezing having been recorded). 

[DoomsDave]

48 minutes ago, Laaz said:

I would say no...   Coconut growing areas of India

Thanks!

Great map!

Hmm. I wonder if they commercial coconut growing areas?

That could well be different from places where they might still grow.

[Zeeth]

12 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Thanks!

Great map!

Hmm. I wonder if they commercial coconut growing areas?

That could well be different from places where they might still grow.

 

I bet it's commercial growing areas. Coconuts grow in parts of central Florida but it would be disastrous to try growing them commercially because of the years where the crop all drops in winter (or the trees all die). 

[Laaz]

When I lived in Pompano Beach coconuts were everywhere, once you get to West Palm they start dropping off considerably.

 

[Zeeth]

18 minutes ago, Laaz said:

When I lived in Pompano Beach coconuts were everywhere, once you get to West Palm they start dropping off considerably.

 

They grow as far north as Brevard county though (and Pinellas on the west coast), but have the problems that I mentioned earlier. 

[tropicbreeze]

7 hours ago, Laaz said:

I would say no...   Coconut growing areas of India

It's not a map of coconut growing areas, it's of coconut growing states.

[Josh-O]

I wish I had that problem.. I mean coconuts dropping fruit on the ground 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

There is a discrepancy between the two maps on the link.  Look at the state in Northeastern India on the second map.  It is not highlighted on the first map, yet it is one of the coconut production states on the second map.  Anyway, I heard somewhere years ago, that the Indian Tall grows to maturity and produces nuts around New Delhi, where temperatures can occasionally drop into the upper 20'sF.  I have seen photos on the internet of them growing in the vicinity of the foothills of the Himalayans.  From what I gather the pure Indian Tall from the New Delhi area is probably cold hardy down to 25F, which makes it the most cold hardy variety in the world, with either the Mexican Tall from the upper Gulf Coast of Mexico between La Pesca and Matamoros being the second most cold hardy variety or another relatively cold hardy variety that I heard about from coastal China in the area north along the coast from Hong Kong.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I have read in a Florida Extension Service publication years ago of coconut palms occasionally (rarely) surviving temps down to 24F, but they certainly couldn't take those temps every winter or even anything close to that every winter.  Also, I am sure any that survive such temps are older, well established, and healthy palms.

[Ben in Norcal]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I have read in a Florida Extension Service publication years ago of coconut palms occasionally (rarely) surviving temps down to 24F, but they certainly couldn't take those temps every winter or even anything close to that every winter.  Also, I am sure any that survive such temps are older, well established, and healthy palms.

Had to think about that 2nd post for a little while, huh? 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

58 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Had to think about that 2nd post for a little while, huh? 

Hey Ben,

We have some to the south of me in the Rio Grande Valley that survived the 2004 snowstorm and have survived over 24 straight hours below freezing with temps in the upper 20'sF.  I have heard that there are some 1989 survivors in coastal Central Florida around Anna Maria Island and Melbourne Beach too.

John

[Ben in Norcal]

Just now, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Hey Ben,

We have some to the south of me in the Rio Grande Valley that survived the 2004 snowstorm and have survived over 24 straight hours below freezing with temps in the upper 20'sF.  I have heard that there are some 1989 survivors in coastal Central Florida around Anna Maria Island and Melbourne Beach too.

John

I believe it.  Been to Delhi for some ethnography a few times, and residents there spoke of reasonably frequent snows as I recall.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Just now, Ben in Norcal said:

I believe it.  Been to Delhi for some ethnography a few times, and residents there spoke of reasonably frequent snows as I recall.

I wish we could get our hands on some of those Indian Talls from that part of India, since I think they are the MOST cold hardy variety in the world, but due to Homeland Insecurity and Customs, I don't think it is possible.  So  much for "Free" Trade!  I guess you have to be a BIG CORPORATION in order to benefit from "Free" Trade!

[RedRabbit]

If a coconut were to survive 24f it would be a statistical anomaly... I read there is/was a pre-1989 coconut in Clearwater Beach which would have taken something in that range, but it would be very very rare for one would survive that. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by RedRabbit

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

19 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

If a coconut were to survive 24f it would be a statistical anomaly... I read there is/was a pre-1989 coconut in Clearwater Beach which would have taken something in that range, but it would be very very rare for one would survive that. 

 

19 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

If a coconut were to survive 24f it would be a statistical anomaly... I read there is/was a pre-1989 coconut in Clearwater Beach which would have taken something in that range, but it would be very very rare for one would survive that. 

I would love to get some viable nuts off that one.  That would be one tough Jamaican Tall!

[RedRabbit]

1 minute ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

 

I would love to get some viable nuts off that one.  That would be one tough Jamaican Tall!

You and me both... Supposedly it survived 19f, but I don't think it got that cold there to be honest. This is all I know about it:

"COCOS nucifera: tall mature palms killed at temps from 23f to 19f (Daytona to Vero). Maypan hybrids show severe burn with any frost (temps 29f on down). There are several "Jamaican Tall" varieties which handle the cold better but are highly susceptible to lethal-yellowing thus are rarely if ever planted anymore. Among those is a specimen growing on the bay in Clearwater Beach that barely survived 19f in '89 and lives to this day."

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/40159-aaa-florida-general-palm-hardiness-data/

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

32 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

You and me both... Supposedly it survived 19f, but I don't think it got that cold there to be honest. This is all I know about it:

"COCOS nucifera: tall mature palms killed at temps from 23f to 19f (Daytona to Vero). Maypan hybrids show severe burn with any frost (temps 29f on down). There are several "Jamaican Tall" varieties which handle the cold better but are highly susceptible to lethal-yellowing thus are rarely if ever planted anymore. Among those is a specimen growing on the bay in Clearwater Beach that barely survived 19f in '89 and lives to this day."

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/40159-aaa-florida-general-palm-hardiness-data/

 

32 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

You and me both... Supposedly it survived 19f, but I don't think it got that cold there to be honest. This is all I know about it:

"COCOS nucifera: tall mature palms killed at temps from 23f to 19f (Daytona to Vero). Maypan hybrids show severe burn with any frost (temps 29f on down). There are several "Jamaican Tall" varieties which handle the cold better but are highly susceptible to lethal-yellowing thus are rarely if ever planted anymore. Among those is a specimen growing on the bay in Clearwater Beach that barely survived 19f in '89 and lives to this day."

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/40159-aaa-florida-general-palm-hardiness-data/

I remember reading that too a while back, and I thought then that I doubt it survived 19F, but it probably survived anywhere from 22F to 23F, which would still make it a very desirable tree to get some good nuts from.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I don't know why the double quotes are appearing above.  Must be some glitch in the system, when I click "Quote".

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I remember Alex in Melbourne Beach telling me a while back that Maypans as well as Jamaican Talls recover more rapidly from winter cold than other varieties like the Malayans.  I knew for many years that Jamaican Talls are more cold hardy and would likely recover faster than Malayans, but until he told me about the recovery of the Maypans, I thought that since they are half Panama Tall and half Malayan Dwarf, that they wouldn't be that cold hardy, but I guess the hybrid vigor kicks in and helps them recover from winter cold faster than other varieties.  I have a Maypan that was only about 2.5 ft. tall in overall height in January that made it through a frost here in my yard without any injury whatsoever with a temp down around 33F or 34F.  Even my little Yellow Malayan was in the ground and only about 2 ft. tall when the frost occurred and showed absolutely no signs of any frostbite damage.  I think healthy coconut palms, even small young ones can take a little more cold than what we originally thought.  I think its the extended cold that gets them here in their northernmost marginal climates, not brief cold snaps with frost or brief freezes.

[Mohsen]

On 11/11/2015, 4:24:07, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

There is a discrepancy between the two maps on the link.  Look at the state in Northeastern India on the second map.  It is not highlighted on the first map, yet it is one of the coconut production states on the second map.  Anyway, I heard somewhere years ago, that the Indian Tall grows to maturity and produces nuts around New Delhi, where temperatures can occasionally drop into the upper 20'sF.  I have seen photos on the internet of them growing in the vicinity of the foothills of the Himalayans.  From what I gather the pure Indian Tall from the New Delhi area is probably cold hardy down to 25F, which makes it the most cold hardy variety in the world, with either the Mexican Tall from the upper Gulf Coast of Mexico between La Pesca and Matamoros being the second most cold hardy variety or another relatively cold hardy variety that I heard about from coastal China in the area north along the coast from Hong Kong.

Thanks John

so it means we can grow them here in Sydney if we find one indian Tall

how about the ones in new Caledonia ( Maré Island )? , could it be possible that the one I am growing inside and I took the nut from there be actually Indian Tall...should I give it a try and put it in the ground?

see the mature trees I got the seed from and my small baby below...

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Mohsen,

That is a nice looking coconut palm you have in the pot, but unfortunately, you live too far outside the tropics to plant one in the ground in Sydney.  I think New Delhi is just over 28 degrees north latitude, but Sydney is nearly at 34 degrees south latitude.  If you were around 30 degrees south latitude, you could try one in a well protected area, but I think you are just too far outside the tropics to even try one in the ground.  What are your normal daytime highs and lows in F in your coldest month?  Even here where I live in Corpus Christi, Texas at about 27.7 degrees north latitude, coconut palms are very marginal, and I live a lot closer to the true tropics than you do.

I think the ones in New Caledonia are one of the western Pacific varieties of Pacific Tall and not the Indian Tall, which means the ones from New Caledonia would be even less cold hardy than the Indian Tall, which even it is probably not cold hardy enough for your area.  When I mentioned their cold hardiness above, I was referring to the Indian Tall's likely ability to take down to 25F once or twice in their lifetime, and can probably take extended chilly weather in the winter better than other varieties, but that doesn't mean they can take chilly winters or freezing temps below 30F every winter.

John