W. filifera in Albuquerque

[SailorBold]

22 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Sabal Palmetto Beat Filifera, and Sabal Mexicana by enough that it was a clear distinction. Butia and Jubaeas were slight disappointments. Canaries did really well, and Trachy were a mixed bag. Trachy Not the best palm for most of Texas and other areas of the SW, so I am sure that played a role in so many that died.

I'm not sure I've seen palmetto passed 5 gallon size here in Abq.. I think they were planted and then not watered enough? I'll try a palmetto..just not ready for it..  I only suggest the S. Mexicana should be due to them being planted at the zoo and growing successfully to trunking.  It's a difficult palm growing climate overall.. and they need the best care to be grown well..

[Collectorpalms]

1 minute ago, SailorBold said:

I'm not sure I've seen palmetto passed 5 gallon size here in Abq.. I think they were planted and then not watered enough? I'll try a palmetto..just not ready for it..  I only suggest the S. Mexicana should be due to them being planted at the zoo and growing successfully to trunking.  It's a difficult palm growing climate overall.. and they need the best care to be grown well..

Since Sabal Mexicana grows roughly twice as fast as a Sabal Palmetto ( for me anyhow), they can get to a big enough size to withstand harder freezes. I saw palmetto with a foot of trunk die nearby from surivors of the 1980s. My tall Palmettos only had about 20% tip burn from 4F. Mexicana was about 85% and Filifera. FIliabusta 100%.

[SailorBold]

22 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Can I ask what are the other plants? Agave, Cactus, Evergreen?

Various cacti.. agave neomexicana(ithink).. agave ovatifolia..  italian cypress..  desert bird of paradise..bougainvillea.. brugmansia.. desert willow.. eucalyptus.. needle palms. I added some new agave this year.. king ferdinand and queen..

[SailorBold]

4 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Since Sabal Mexicana grows roughly twice as fast as a Sabal Palmetto ( for me anyhow), they can get to a big enough size to withstand harder freezes. I saw palmetto with a foot of trunk die nearby from surivors of the 1980s. My tall Palmettos only had about 20% tip burn from 4F. Mexicana was about 85% and Filifera. FIliabusta 100%.

Hmm...

[SailorBold]

14 hours ago, ChrisA said:

Looking great my friend!  Still don’t understand how you keep Bougainvillea coming back year after year!  I lost my Barbara Karst this past winter that only had to endure 23 degrees. Cripes! Lol

This year’s struggle has been keeping plants alive with barely a drop of rain and three months of temps over 100F.

As for the palms of San Antonio, I was really unimpressed with how Chaemerops fared in the Feb 2021 arctic outbreak.  I estimated about 50% died to the ground. Canary Dates, Filiferas, Sabals, and Filibusta did pretty well, especially the sabals! Burial was also hit or miss. Robusta took a huge hit! I only see scattered robusta remaining. Queens and Pygmy dates were entirely annihilated.

Thank you!.. its coming along.. need more years under its belt.. I think the bougainvillea can be reliable perennials here.. but keep in mind they are pasted on a south wall... altho not sure if it makes that much warmth in winter because the filiferas are shading quite a bit. ??  They need water to get established especially when it doesn't rain and the soil dries out mid winter.. making them crispier..

How are you enjoying the warmer weather? Smh.. abq lost another palm person..

Meds are iffy here below 15f..but don't think they flat out die..just regrow..but the cerifera? Or atlas whatever..is hardier.  I may have slight zone denial.. but.. I will definitely be sharing the info to anyone who is interested.

Now you'll be able to grow all kinds of cool stuff.. are you gonna try any zone pushing there?

[SailorBold]

12 hours ago, Ltapia said:

Is this in abq?

Yes.. south rio rancho..  nice palms you have there btw..

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by SailorBold

[SailorBold]

9 hours ago, MSX said:

I think Sabal minor too would be an appropriate addition to the list, this is one of the most underrated hardy palms.

Yes indeed..   I tried to add some Sabal tamaulipas.. but I was sent the wrong palms in error.. planted them and as they grew they turned into med. Fan palms..   Havent tried again but I think I'll add minors too for understory greenery..

[SailorBold]

8 hours ago, jwitt said:

Fatter than a "dually"!

Lol.. a filifera trifecta hopefully.. once they get above roofline in a couple years I think they will settle on their leans.. we will see.. !

[SailorBold]

On 9/28/2022 at 2:36 PM, jwitt said:

The palm zone you describe is accurate. Far enough away from the Sandias to lessen the east wind, but yet in the influence of those mountains and the snow hole. 

Those palms were fully green up til February when the 7f hit.   Some years good, some bad. 

It is hotter on the westside and there is less precipitation.

The other thing is the 7f and 9f were arctic events and the last 2 years both were 8b at 16f or above heading into February.  It's a pain in the ass climate.. with one or two storms that will ultimately damage the palms.. 

[jwitt]

9 hours ago, SailorBold said:

It is hotter on the westside and there is less precipitation.

The other thing is the 7f and 9f were arctic events and the last 2 years both were 8b at 16f or above heading into February.  It's a pain in the ass climate.. with one or two storms that will ultimately damage the palms.. 

Exactly 

And also longer direct sunshine as the sun hits the westside in the morning first.  So unlike most locales, our sun actually rises in the west!

 

[SailorBold]

6 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Exactly 

And also longer direct sunshine as the sun hits the westside in the morning first.  So unlike most locales, our sun actually rises in the west!

 

Jwitt.. I do believe we are living in a palmster paradise..

[jwitt]

1 minute ago, SailorBold said:

Jwitt.. I do believe we are living in a palmster paradise..

Imagine if one could find a "slightly" elevated neighborhood with a slope to the SE. 

One might even find bougainvillea doable. Imagine that! 

Wait a minute!

[SailorBold]

12 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Imagine if one could find a "slightly" elevated neighborhood with a slope to the SE. 

One might even find bougainvillea doable. Imagine that! 

Wait a minute!

Lol....

I need to go check the drainage pond to see if any of the TorC seed came up.. ill bring more to plant..  keep your fingers crossed.. there may be a palm oasis down therr some day..

Find your happy...

 

[SailorBold]

On 9/30/2022 at 7:51 AM, jwitt said:

Imagine if one could find a "slightly" elevated neighborhood with a slope to the SE. 

One might even find bougainvillea doable. Imagine that! 

Wait a minute!

Taken this morning.. I love it when the clouds do this...

[jwitt]

14 hours ago, SailorBold said:

Taken this morning.. I love it when the clouds do this...

I was surprised the balloons went up and yes the clouds were a nice touch.

You're gonna force me to deep dive that drainage reservoir aren't you? .........

[SailorBold]

9 hours ago, jwitt said:

I was surprised the balloons went up and yes the clouds were a nice touch.

You're gonna force me to deep dive that drainage reservoir aren't you? .........

Oh no.. you may need to take a dinghy to the little island tho.. if its not underwater...!!  I planted alot of seeds there.. 

I'll check it out in a couple weeks if you don't beat me to it.. I might wait until winter to sow the seeds.. just in case they germinate too late.. Def. Going to get the thermometer down there this winter..

 

From today..  looks like there isn't any freeze damages to the trunks..

[jwitt]

8 hours ago, SailorBold said:

Oh no.. you may need to take a dinghy to the little island tho.. if its not underwater...!!  I planted alot of seeds there.. 

I'll check it out in a couple weeks if you don't beat me to it.. I might wait until winter to sow the seeds.. just in case they germinate too late.. Def. Going to get the thermometer down there this winter..

 

From today..  looks like there isn't any freeze damages to the trunks..

Definitely lessons to be learned.

Where are the 2011 constrictions?

Why no "Texas" trunk slough?

Is it time to go there and prove beyond a doubt, that all air, and I mean all air below 40f or 35f is dry.  

We can even start with basics, like why do CIDP bloom in January in the high desert of Texas but yet show constrictions from 2011(and even possibly 1962) while Washingtonia are absent those constrictions (in the high desert) as compared to .....San Antonio or Houston which show constrictions?

 

Are they ready?

Or we can wait til our local palms clear the roofline and truly become exposed?

 

But those leaves, they could brown.  Even in February...

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by jwitt

[Desert DAC]

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

Definitely lessons to be learned.

Where are the 2011 constrictions?

Why no "Texas" trunk slough?

Is it time to go there and prove beyond a doubt, that all air, and I mean all air below 40f or 35f is dry.  

We can even start with basics, like why do CIDP bloom in January in the high desert of Texas but yet show constrictions from 2011(and even possibly 1962) while Washingtonia are absent those constrictions (in the high desert) as compared to .....San Antonio or Houston which show constrictions?

 

Are they ready?

Or we can wait til our local palms clear the roofline and truly become exposed?

 

But those leaves, they could brown.  Even in February...

 

Yes - all air below 35-40F is dry air. Especially below the <15F mark that damages or kills many palms and other interesting plants; the dewpoint would have to be <15F, too. Especially when such low temps and dps are repeated throughout the winter, or combined with too many consecutive hours <32F. This was freshman meteorology fact, as were dewpoints > relative humidity for discussing moisture in the air or forecasting low temps. 

It's pointless discussing climate zones when someone tells me something like, "Oklahoma has a humid cold, but New Mexico has a dry cold." Followed by how some plants are hardier in OK than NM (Ilex vomitoria...which it isn't) or vice-versa with other plants. And when we were already discussing how it got to 0F in both OK and NM, meaning the dewpoint was no higher than 0F...extremely dry. Never mind I studied meteorology at OU, and those countering me have degrees in art, design, English, ..., with probably little physical science. 

My guess is some of the palm hardiness / damage issues between parts of Texas with more damage to palms than NM, especially the limit of ABQ metro, is what it is on other plants. The great plains and prairies east of the Rocky Mountains and NM mountains is exposed to rapidly changeable airmasses. Texans often call those winter cold fronts as northers; the areas east of the Big Bend up to the easternmost panhandle often have days of mild to warm weather and are bathed in Gulf humidity (55-70 dewpoints, highest SE of Del Rio to Waco), only to get blasted with a norther and very cold, dry air for a few days.

A similar thing happens in southeastern NM (Roswell and S / E), the Panhandles (Amarillo, Guymon), the South Plains (Lubbock), Permian Basin (Odessa-Midland), and east of the Marfa Plateau; extended warmth but low humidity - but still the sharp change from extended warmth waking plants up, only to get shocked by a norther.

The Rio Grande valley of the New Mexico mid-section rarely gets the frequency or severity of warm to cold, thanks to the mountains modifying the push of plains cold fronts. Compare what we have native and can grow in Las Cruces or El Paso to the same in Roswell or Carlsbad to Midland.

Think mild side vs. wild side of the mountains.

My first day in MET 1003 the professor told us not from Oklahoma, "there are only some barbed wire fences between Norman and the north pole or the tropics, and that's why you're in a great place to study meteorology." Albuquerque and Las Cruces, even Santa Fe, pale in comparison. And just imagine SoCal like San Diego. 

[Desert DAC]

13 hours ago, SailorBold said:

Oh no.. you may need to take a dinghy to the little island tho.. if its not underwater...!!  I planted alot of seeds there.. 

I'll check it out in a couple weeks if you don't beat me to it.. I might wait until winter to sow the seeds.. just in case they germinate too late.. Def. Going to get the thermometer down there this winter..

 

From today..  looks like there isn't any freeze damages to the trunks..

Thanks for the update, and now I must plan a trip to ABQ, just to see these in person and get more pics. 

Now, imagine some of the neighbors quit trying to torture or fry roses or make small landscape gestures, and instead planted more of the same Washies and Dasylirion, Rhaphiolepis, etc that 3906 has gracing their more appealing front yard design.

 

[jwitt]

On 11/16/2017 at 2:57 PM, PalmTreeDude said:

That grew that much in about a year? Dang! (I am talking from the snow to the current picture)

Yes. You lose years by either moving or planting from a pot. Seeding in place is unbelievable with these palms.

[SailorBold]

4 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

 

I thinks it's doable.. perhaps with strategic pruning, other than placement and variety..They do look crappy for 3-5 months a year..depending.  but if you were on top of it.. and pruned all the burned fronds in march/ April they'd look like hurricane cut washies in a month..

[MSX]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:32 AM, SailorBold said:

Oh no.. you may need to take a dinghy to the little island tho.. if its not underwater...!!  I planted alot of seeds there.. 

I'll check it out in a couple weeks if you don't beat me to it.. I might wait until winter to sow the seeds.. just in case they germinate too late.. Def. Going to get the thermometer down there this winter..

 

From today..  looks like there isn't any freeze damages to the trunks..

Always great to see this ABQ's landmark! Pity they removed one of the two huge dasylirions

Edited October 7, 2022 by MSX

[ChrisA]

On 9/29/2022 at 10:15 PM, SailorBold said:

Thank you!.. its coming along.. need more years under its belt.. I think the bougainvillea can be reliable perennials here.. but keep in mind they are pasted on a south wall... altho not sure if it makes that much warmth in winter because the filiferas are shading quite a bit. ??  They need water to get established especially when it doesn't rain and the soil dries out mid winter.. making them crispier..

How are you enjoying the warmer weather? Smh.. abq lost another palm person..

Meds are iffy here below 15f..but don't think they flat out die..just regrow..but the cerifera? Or atlas whatever..is hardier.  I may have slight zone denial.. but.. I will definitely be sharing the info to anyone who is interested.

Now you'll be able to grow all kinds of cool stuff.. are you gonna try any zone pushing there?

Hey SailorBold,

 

Definitely loving the warmer climate! The humidity has been something to get used to, but the body adjusts. Lol! I haven’t done anything that would really be considered zone pushing yet as I’m still trying to get a feel for what does well. Also the backyard will become somewhat of a total redo once the other more important projects get completed. I’ve got two enormous W. filifera in the back yard along with about 4 seedlings I’ve allowed to grow which are now approaching 4 feet tall from straplings that came up in March of 21. The Queen is the only thing I’d consider a zone push right now and it has struggled due to the intense heat and drought. It’s planted on a slope so it is very difficult to water adequately or to apply fertilizer and epsom salt.  I’m not sure it’s rooted very well either although it has grown fairly tall. I’m not going to protect it this winter, so if it croaks it croaks. I’ll replace it with something else that will do better, especially if this coming winter includes more blowing ice storms… 

Other plants in the yard that are kind of cool are: avocado, loquat, podocarpus, anacua (sandpaper tree), skyflower (duranta erecta), cape plumbago, shrimp flower, and dwarf bottlebrush.

I see Albuquerque and NM in general having continued to get lots of moisture, that is so good to see.  Hopefully you have a gentle winter and the palms thrive. Albuquerque is definitely getting more palm friendly!

Cheers,

Chris

[jwitt]

Wonder if any surprises from this zone 7a locale.  Any survivors would be heading into their second winter.  Last winter(Feb), add a degree or two.  Any bet takers?

Pic is from 2021

Edited November 18, 2022 by jwitt

[jwitt]

Feb 2022 pic from Google

 

[Desert DAC]

Thanks, I forgot to look on Google. Seems like a waste to push zones, especially on trees. Phoenix dactylifera seem only to recover from extreme cold and extended below 32F when most years get no lower than 15F. I.E. zone 8b, inner Las Cruces and much of El Paso out of the upper valley.

[jwitt]

If you look closely, there is snow in the pic.. 3" of snow was recorded on 2/18/21.  I suspect the Google pic was a couple days after(2/20?).   So basically the picture was 2 weeks after those palms saw 6f,2f, 4f, 7f on consecutive nights, or very close to those temperatures. ..........

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by jwitt

[ChrisA]

15 hours ago, jwitt said:

Feb 2022 pic from Google

 

Damn, that's an expensive mistake. Does anyone know if there was any recovery this year?  I'd suspect they were all toast, unfortunately. 

[jwitt]

Well, first, one must get past the fact filifera are surviving near long term in a zone 6b less than a mile away.   Who knows..... 

[ChrisA]

3 hours ago, jwitt said:

Well, first, one must get past the fact filifera are surviving near long term in a zone 6b less than a mile away.   Who knows..... 

I've gotten past that fact because I've been watching them for many years.  However, I don't see P. dactylifera surviving long term in Albuquerque, especially out in the open.  If anyone's nearby I'd love to see an updated photo from this yard. The "fried" photo is from Feb 2022. If they weren't removed earlier this year, I'd be interested to see how they look now.  Phoenix does not grow back very quickly and cannot handle being defoliated year after year, which they will be. But you're welcome to prove me wrong! 

 

There used to be one growing (from seed) immediately next to a south facing wall on Central, in Nob Hill, that survived for many years and actually got some decent height to it.  This tree perished in 2011. Result: GONE

Another few edible dates were planted in the front of a motel on Central, just west of I-25. They also lived a few years, but struggled and both died after a few years of being worn down winter after winter. Result: GONE

PlantWorld (Edith and El Pueblo) planted a large dactylifera a few years ago. The first winter outside, unprotected all fronds died. I think it came back the following spring (2021). Not sure if it still survives. Result: UNKOWN     *CAN ANYONE CONFIRM IT'S STATUS*

[jwitt]

I look at that Google pic and question how those dates looked prior to February and if they were somewhat green. Could they have been green even after the single digits earlier in December? 

 

[jwitt]

On 11/22/2022 at 6:12 AM, ChrisA said:

Damn, that's an expensive mistake. Does anyone know if there was any recovery this year?  I'd suspect they were all toast, unfortunately. 

Robusta gone, others hanging on by a thread with dates.  Not sure why pics are sideways, sorry.

Edited November 23, 2022 by jwitt

[ChrisA]

Thanks for the photos JWitt.  Hopefully this winter isn’t too rough. Would be great to see them pull through. A shame amout the Robustas…   

[jwitt]

Never seen robusta success here, even protected. 

Never seen large dact here, other than the ones you mentioned, which weren't large.  

It is interesting. Will they be 2 year palms, 5, 10, who knows. 

Ultimately, can they get a string of mild winters?  Or is the decline in motion?

We do know large, newly planted dact seem hardier than newly planted large robusta with regards to extreme low temperatures, at least in this location.  Neat to watch without my dime in the test.

It was slightly below zonal cold last winter. 

Definitely a cold spot at the mouth of Calabacitas arroyo and the river.

[ChrisA]

I'd love to see those palms do well for several years so the owners can thoroughly enjoy them.  Albuquerque has such amazing summers and the blue skies that make those palms look incredible it's a shame we can't get a winter with coldest low in the 20's every now and then.  Years ago, when I was a student at UNM, I looked through the weather records and the highest low temperature I could find (of course this is at the airport) was 19F. I don't think that ever happened in my 30 years there.  Although I will say that lows in the mid-teens or so were getting more common, and winters went from zone 7's to zone 8's much more often.

[MSX]

I made a spreadsheet based on METAR aviation weather report data for the past 30 years, and it turns out that Albuquerque (the airport) is in zone 8a. Is there any difference between the airport area and palmy locations of the expansive ABQ metropolitan area (Rio Rancho, for example)?

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, MSX said:

I made a spreadsheet based on METAR aviation weather report data for the past 30 years, and it turns out that Albuquerque (the airport) is in zone 8a. Is there any difference between the airport area and palmy locations of the expansive ABQ metropolitan area (Rio Rancho, for example)?

As far as Rio Rancho #2(which is 23 houses away from my house) and the Corrales station, the average daily highs are substantially higher than the airport station and average in the low 50's in the coldest time of year(now).  The lows in Corrales are lower than the airport and Rio Rancho within a degree or two of the airport,  for the most part.   

Now throw in a nearly 11,000' mountain that blocks the palm killing east wind in RR/Corrales,  and possibilities open up. 

This part of the metro has really only been populated as of late and climate is not fully understood.

At the end of the day, this is a place you can liftoff and lan a balloon in the same spot, second highest climate variability of US cities, and wait for it......second highest UHI in the US. 

This part of the metro, is untested and unknown for the most part.

[jwitt]

ABQ airport= zone 8a

My house(Rio Rancho)=zone 7b

Corrales palms=zone 6b

But the airport has the lower average high daily maximum temperature.  Multiple degrees....

In fact, my Rio Rancho location average high is more in tune with TorC/Alamogordo than ABQ.  On average. 

So yes, there is a difference between the airport and the westside. 

I'm 23 houses from the RR station and less than 2 miles from the Corrales station(a full zone in under 2 miles!)

And after all that, there are parts of ABQ that are zone 8b or right on the edge. But no long term palms including trachies in this "warmer" zone.

Edited December 20, 2022 by jwitt
Additional info

[jwitt]

[jwitt]

12/16/2022

37f high in ABQ 

52f in my backyard microclimate.  

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by jwitt