W. filifera in Albuquerque

[Desert DAC]

10 hours ago, MSX said:

I made a spreadsheet based on METAR aviation weather report data for the past 30 years, and it turns out that Albuquerque (the airport) is in zone 8a. Is there any difference between the airport area and palmy locations of the expansive ABQ metropolitan area (Rio Rancho, for example)?

Good work! I did a similar spreadsheet, but tracking 10, 20, 30 year periods for several stations including NMSU, ABQ, Santa Fe, Austin, and a couple others. I'll need to post it once I get a chance. 

[jwitt]

Rio Rancho #2 comes in at 8f

Corrales station has some location issues thru the years and for some time was within mere blocks of the RR2 station up on the escarpment and not by the river where it is now and was previously.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by jwitt

[Desert DAC]

13 hours ago, jwitt said:

Rio Rancho #2 comes in at 8f

Corrales station has some location issues thru the years and for some time was within mere blocks of the RR2 station up on the escarpment and not by the river where it is now and was previously.

Thanks, these charts of various stations are helpful for a snapshot that's summarized. I've used MesoWest and NOAA data when recent 2 years, which are more of a manual exercise!

With USDA cold hardiness zones, it's necessary to have a corresponding, consecutive 30 year (or more) period for a weather station at one location, with a high data quality at least 70% (2/3) of complete observations. Zones are nothing remotely about 1 year or even 10 years, spotty records, etc. Otherwise it's about inferences (helpful if based on consistency & fact, but still not a known) or worse, perceptions. (most of what I heard for 21 years in ABQ, "arcticists" who act like ABQ is Denver with adobe)

Given most woody garden plants should live out their lifespan of 30+ years or tree lifespans of 50-100+ years, a year or ten aren't helpful. As a landscape architect for 30-ish years, I went for the long game, unlike a home gardener or hobbyist which is also fine but different goals.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Desert DAC

[jwitt]

I moved to Corrales in 1976. I currently live in Corrales Heights.  I can provide long-term data from about 5 miles upstream showing an average of 1.8 days on an annual average at or below 0f.  

The closest your going to get to Corrales near the river.

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

I moved to Corrales in 1976. I currently live in Corrales Heights.  I can provide long-term data from about 5 miles upstream showing an average of 1.8 days on an annual average at or below 0f.  

The closest your going to get to Corrales near the river.

I believe the NWS moved the Bernalillo station to Corrales and then within Corrales to get a better handle of the westside metro.  Which, for the most part, did not exist 30 years ago.  At least the dates line up with the creation and movement of stations(Bernalillo stopped/Corrales started same year1982).  Rio Rancho started(1991) about when the Corrales station returned to the river(for a while). 

I worked at a nursery in Corrales(green acres) in 79-82 and the owner would not even allow talk about palms and such(this was the decade of -20f(multiple times) in the valley1971/1978)). That is where the Denver imprint came from.  The local nurseryman! 

Meanwhile,  me and the greenhouse manager watched her neighbor's unprotected trachy grow in the far north valley thru the late 70's/early 80's.  A time of double digits below zero!

 

 

[SailorBold]

It's a nightmare for people who love palms.. lol..

Pouring over my data from my weather station I think my overall monthly averages are higher than the RR2 station for Dec- feb.. I've run a quick pencil to it and they range from 28-34.. with december being the coldest..my station mostly lines up with another a street over that has a fan assisted thermometer.. pretty mild considering some of the data from other locales putting averages down to 22f for lows.  im thinking my average highs are even in the solid 50s for highs..  which is 10 degrees higher than other data coming from other areas.. the summer data is about the same.. my average june/July high temps are at 96-97f.  

Overall it doesn't matter with winter blasts.. which you can bet on 1-3 a year.

 

5f to palm trees.....

 

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, SailorBold said:

It's a nightmare for people who love palms.. lol..

Pouring over my data from my weather station I think my overall monthly averages are higher than the RR2 station for Dec- feb.. I've run a quick pencil to it and they range from 28-34.. with december being the coldest..my station mostly lines up with another a street over that has a fan assisted thermometer.. pretty mild considering some of the data from other locales putting averages down to 22f for lows.  im thinking my average highs are even in the solid 50s for highs..  which is 10 degrees higher than other data coming from other areas.. the summer data is about the same.. my average june/July high temps are at 96-97f.  

Overall it doesn't matter with winter blasts.. which you can bet on 1-3 a year.

 

5f to palm trees.....

 

Now move your station on the very edge of a 200' escarpment, with a clear view of Sandia/Truchas peaks and things make sense. 

Every year is a crapshoot in my yard and and I have outlived any palm I have ever grown!

The pin, is the station

Edited December 22, 2022 by jwitt

[SailorBold]

On 12/20/2022 at 1:09 PM, jwitt said:

As far as Rio Rancho #2(which is 23 houses away from my house) and the Corrales station, the average daily highs are substantially higher than the airport station and average in the low 50's in the coldest time of year(now).  The lows in Corrales are lower than the airport and Rio Rancho within a degree or two of the airport,  for the most part.   

Now throw in a nearly 11,000' mountain that blocks the palm killing east wind in RR/Corrales,  and possibilities open up. 

This part of the metro has really only been populated as of late and climate is not fully understood.

At the end of the day, this is a place you can liftoff and lan a balloon in the same spot, second highest climate variability of US cities, and wait for it......second highest UHI in the US. 

This part of the metro, is untested and unknown for the most part.

Case in point with this current arctic blast.. 1 hour east its 7f !

[jwitt]

6 hours ago, SailorBold said:

Case in point with this current arctic blast.. 1 hour east its 7f !

Let me do a palm killing setup.......

Current situation with the cold air coming down to the east along the plains(high pressure).  Now at the same time imagine a pacific storm(low pressure) coming in from the west.  This is what I term our palm killer.  East winds blowing 90mph at Tramway,  45 at San Mateo, 30 at Edith, and 10 to 15 at Corrales.  Even a bit less in RR.  This the Sandia blocking I am really referring to.  Full on blizzard in the heights, and possibly partly sunny in RR. These are truly the setup for our worst events. 

Back to today.,.............

Big warmup coming next week...........

Warm before the storm?

Usually about ten days from winter storms to affect the mainland coming from Hawaii......

well, about ten days ago Hawaii just so happened to have some coastal issues from the storm rolling across the N Pacific causing surf not seen in some years. 

Yesterday, huge flight disruption across the islands. Really unprecedented. Due to a Kona storm. .........

I have never seen snow on Mauna Kea this far down. 

Eyes on!

Edited December 22, 2022 by jwitt
Corrected wording

[MSX]

On 12/21/2022 at 4:19 AM, jwitt said:

ABQ airport= zone 8a

My house(Rio Rancho)=zone 7b

Corrales palms=zone 6b

But the airport has the lower average high daily maximum temperature.  Multiple degrees....

In fact, my Rio Rancho location average high is more in tune with TorC/Alamogordo than ABQ.  On average. 

So yes, there is a difference between the airport and the westside. 

I'm 23 houses from the RR station and less than 2 miles from the Corrales station(a full zone in under 2 miles!)

And after all that, there are parts of ABQ that are zone 8b or right on the edge. But no long term palms including trachies in this "warmer" zone.

The difference between the airport and the westside of ABQ is clearly visible from these SUHI intensity images (Yale Center for Earth Observation). The dark orange zones hotspots in the nighttime of the last coldest winter must be the parts of ABQ that are zone 8b (1-2 degrees warmer than the airport) (downtown, eastside?). The eastern and the highest elevated parts of the city seem to be one of the warmest too during the winter night but they are the coldest in the daytime.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by MSX

[Desert DAC]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:10 AM, SailorBold said:

Case in point with this current arctic blast.. 1 hour east its 7f !

1 hour east of ABQ is another ecoregion and climate zone, and that's consistent whether natural / cultivated vegetation indicators, or long-term averages, extremes, or most daily temps. Even Tijeras is quite different in all that from my old house east of Tramway / I-40. Heck, Oklahoma City (Norman) where I lived in college is zone 7a-b like much of ABQ, but gets far more up-down extremes plus another factor many forget - consecutive hours and days <32F. Take that over a 30 year period, and you have climate differences.

I'll use a couple geographer terms for climate regimes that relate to growing plants. East is microthermal (daily mean of coldest month averages <32F). West is mesothermal (daily mean of coldest month averages >32F). The occasional variability of that, mostly the mesothermal climate west to get a <32F month or a colder extreme low, is tricky for hardy palms. Especially since Wash. filifera isn't just a mesothermal regime tree, it's a mesothermal / subtropical regime tree. (ABQ is best described as having mesothermal / warm-temperate regime) The natural and cultivated plant correlations are amazing from one regime to another regime. Of course, these are general categories that are further delineated into zones. 

Merriam hit on some of this in the 1880's with his life zone system (for crops), but he missed many factors and also had little data.  Not that terms aren't confusing, too, starting with "temperate", but that's a minor detail since most people keep forgetting time periods for data quality matter much.

For some in arid and semi-arid places:

Microthermal - Denver, Santa Fe, Taos, Edgewood, Grants, etc. (I didn't divide microthermal into its variations)

Mesothermal / Warm-Temperate - ABQ, San Felipe, Socorro, T or C, Las Cruces, El Paso, Las Vegas NV

Mesothermal / Subtropical - Presidio TX, Tucson, Phoenix, Palm Springs, etc.

[Desert DAC]

4 hours ago, MSX said:

The difference between the airport and the westside of ABQ is clearly visible from these SUHI intensity images (Yale Center for Earth Observation). The dark orange zones hotspots in the nighttime of the last coldest winter must be the parts of ABQ that are zone 8b (1-2 degrees warmer than the airport) (downtown, eastside?). The eastern and the highest elevated parts of the city seem to be one of the warmest too during the winter night but they are the coldest in the daytime.

 

Thanks for this, excellent graphics and more clues. I need to study it more, plus try it on other cities with much more prominent heat islands than ABQ. (El Paso, Phoenix, etc.)

Computer models and even mapping / graphing are iffy to me without enough data points, for long enough time, to verify or state facts. Not to mention horridly inaccurate sites like Climate Central, which appears to have fed some erroneous data into making their maps in certain places' heat islands or climate change forecasts. One can see much driving around at night with a car thermometer, or mountain biking / hiking in shorts in a ABQ or warmer winter place.

[jwitt]

9 hours ago, MSX said:

The difference between the airport and the westside of ABQ is clearly visible from these SUHI intensity images (Yale Center for Earth Observation). The dark orange zones hotspots in the nighttime of the last coldest winter must be the parts of ABQ that are zone 8b (1-2 degrees warmer than the airport) (downtown, eastside?). The eastern and the highest elevated parts of the city seem to be one of the warmest too during the winter night but they are the coldest in the daytime.

 

Those Maps show the cold air drainage into the Rio Grande valley thru the arroyos on the westside.  Montoya, Calabacitas, Black Montano are the big ones . Canyons of cold air. Few know about this.

In the valley from about Montano to just past the zoo are a 1/2 zone increase due to no large arroyos and it shows on these maps 

This is where the UHI is shown, in the valley, north to south.  Quite large in a very short distance(under 10 miles).  

I think this knowledge is why the NWS kept moving the stations.  Many were under the impression the local drainage(climate) was affected mostly by the mountains to the east and north. Not the case. 

 

[jwitt]

An argument for mass and canopy.

12/29/22

[SailorBold]

On 12/22/2022 at 3:01 PM, jwitt said:

Let me do a palm killing setup.......

Current situation with the cold air coming down to the east along the plains(high pressure).  Now at the same time imagine a pacific storm(low pressure) coming in from the west.  This is what I term our palm killer.  East winds blowing 90mph at Tramway,  45 at San Mateo, 30 at Edith, and 10 to 15 at Corrales.  Even a bit less in RR.  This the Sandia blocking I am really referring to.  Full on blizzard in the heights, and possibly partly sunny in RR. These are truly the setup for our worst events. 

Back to today.,.............

Big warmup coming next week...........

Warm before the storm?

Usually about ten days from winter storms to affect the mainland coming from Hawaii......

well, about ten days ago Hawaii just so happened to have some coastal issues from the storm rolling across the N Pacific causing surf not seen in some years. 

Yesterday, huge flight disruption across the islands. Really unprecedented. Due to a Kona storm. .........

I have never seen snow on Mauna Kea this far down. 

Eyes on!

Bomb Cyclone is next?  

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, SailorBold said:

Bomb Cyclone is next?  

I hope not.  With no arctic air in the plains, I sleep sound.  

Been very wet in California and PHX tho.  Even here. 

[Desert DAC]

On 12/29/2022 at 4:39 AM, MSX said:

The difference between the airport and the westside of ABQ is clearly visible from these SUHI intensity images (Yale Center for Earth Observation). The dark orange zones hotspots in the nighttime of the last coldest winter must be the parts of ABQ that are zone 8b (1-2 degrees warmer than the airport) (downtown, eastside?). The eastern and the highest elevated parts of the city seem to be one of the warmest too during the winter night but they are the coldest in the daytime.

 

I'm *finally* getting back on Palmtalk, but I'm not caught up on all the posts. 

A question on these heat island maps: what's the link I can access this mapping tool? (I found nothing searching Yale Center for Earth Observation and heat island)

Thanks!

[Desert DAC]

On 12/29/2022 at 4:39 AM, MSX said:

The difference between the airport and the westside of ABQ is clearly visible from these SUHI intensity images (Yale Center for Earth Observation). The dark orange zones hotspots in the nighttime of the last coldest winter must be the parts of ABQ that are zone 8b (1-2 degrees warmer than the airport) (downtown, eastside?). The eastern and the highest elevated parts of the city seem to be one of the warmest too during the winter night but they are the coldest in the daytime.

 

This is a study from "National Integrated Heat Health Information System", for some select cities on urban heat islands:

https://www.heat.gov/pages/nihhis-urban-heat-island-mapping-campaign-cities

[MSX]

4 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

I'm *finally* getting back on Palmtalk, but I'm not caught up on all the posts. 

A question on these heat island maps: what's the link I can access this mapping tool? (I found nothing searching Yale Center for Earth Observation and heat island)

Thanks!

 

Here is the link, eager to hear your thoughts on this one - https://yceo.yale.edu/research/global-surface-uhi-explorer

[Desert DAC]

2 hours ago, MSX said:

 

Here is the link, eager to hear your thoughts on this one - https://yceo.yale.edu/research/global-surface-uhi-explorer

Thank you, that helps - can't wait to use it and let you know. This link seems like remote sensing, only, which should be interesting. Especially if it is supported with actual temperature readings.

The link I sent you earlier looks like a mix of remote sensing plus local temperature data on one specific summer day. They picked a good example of a hot day in a hot summer (July 9-10, 2020) for Albuquerque to El Paso, but they didn't do so well in other western cities except Sacramento, Boise, and Portland OR of those I also checked.

[SailorBold]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:29 AM, Ltapia said:

Bump Any new pics this year ?

Date palm recovery shot taken today  still kickin'..  hmm who knows.. perhaps if one planted one of these and fully established it.. it might be able to regrow a full crown..  

[SailorBold]

On 12/29/2022 at 2:41 PM, jwitt said:

Those Maps show the cold air drainage into the Rio Grande valley thru the arroyos on the westside.  Montoya, Calabacitas, Black Montano are the big ones . Canyons of cold air. Few know about this.

In the valley from about Montano to just past the zoo are a 1/2 zone increase due to no large arroyos and it shows on these maps 

This is where the UHI is shown, in the valley, north to south.  Quite large in a very short distance(under 10 miles).  

I think this knowledge is why the NWS kept moving the stations.  Many were under the impression the local drainage(climate) was affected mostly by the mountains to the east and north. Not the case. 

 

Will be interesting when Mesa del Sol and Santolina have more data sets..  not sure the canyon name but the canyon separating Mesa Del Sol and the airport is pretty big.. there's always an east wind in that one.. you can feel it while driving into it..

[jwitt]

@SailorBold

Tijeras canyon/arroyo 

Edited September 22, 2023 by jwitt

[jwitt]

11 hours ago, SailorBold said:

Date palm recovery shot taken today  still kickin'..  hmm who knows.. perhaps if one planted one of these and fully established it.. it might be able to regrow a full crown..  

5 more across the river attempting to establish. Sorry no pics.  

Here is an hour old pic of some near world record cold survivors passing on genes!

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by jwitt

[Desert DAC]

12 hours ago, SailorBold said:

Will be interesting when Mesa del Sol and Santolina have more data sets..  not sure the canyon name but the canyon separating Mesa Del Sol and the airport is pretty big.. there's always an east wind in that one.. you can feel it while driving into it..

For 15 years I lived on a slight ridge at the mouth of Tijeras Canyon (the big one that empties into the valley between the airport and Mesa del Sol as Tijeras Arroyo). I tracked my temperatures and precip (including our few but fun snowfalls) for most of those years. In a few exceptional cold spells (Feb 2011) or exceptional snows (Dec 1999, twice in Dec 2006), we were no colder than the airport, but over most years and sometimes by storm, we got 50% more precip. Both those locations were on a high spot on the north side of Tijeras Arroyo, but my winds were worse at the canyon mouth, and sometimes blew when they didn't much at the Sunport or along I-25, which I drove many times that direction. Summer t-storms over Tucumcari or Clovis several times pushed moist but cooler wind into my neighborhood, often lasting well past midnight. No UHI there at all or the Sunport, but maximum ventilation (wind) many afternoons except during the hotter parts of summer. 

[Desert DAC]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

5 more across the river attempting to establish. Sorry no pics.  

Here is an hour old pic of some near world record cold survivors passing on genes!

 

Nice - I wanted to check out these palms in April, to see how of if the fronds were killed or browned out. I wasn't able to see them last Monday when I was up there, either. The few past Google "street views" in late winter showed that browning, but I'm curious if that frond browning happens all winters or just some winters. But I'll have to wait until next year. Does anyone go by those palms each winter to know better?

Carlsbad NM, Dallas or Midland TX, or possibly Austin may be able to challenge these NW ABQ Wash. filifera for duration of temps <32F combined with single digits, in 2021 and Dec 1983. The challenge will be to find palm or plant-related info that corresponds with that climatology. Though some palms, etc. in those southern prairies and plains locales didn't take that. The nice live oak on Garfield SE was from seed in Dallas that did take it, unlike the Q virginiana at the same location. I downloaded or bookmarked some of that climate data, including this one - https://www.weather.gov/fwd/dec1983

[jwitt]

6 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

For 15 years I lived on a slight ridge at the mouth of Tijeras Canyon (the big one that empties into the valley between the airport and Mesa del Sol as Tijeras Arroyo). I tracked my temperatures and precip (including our few but fun snowfalls) for most of those years. In a few exceptional cold spells (Feb 2011) or exceptional snows (Dec 1999, twice in Dec 2006), we were no colder than the airport, but over most years and sometimes by storm, we got 50% more precip. Both those locations were on a high spot on the north side of Tijeras Arroyo, but my winds were worse at the canyon mouth, and sometimes blew when they didn't much at the Sunport or along I-25, which I drove many times that direction. Summer t-storms over Tucumcari or Clovis several times pushed moist but cooler wind into my neighborhood, often lasting well past midnight. No UHI there at all or the Sunport, but maximum ventilation (wind) many afternoons except during the hotter parts of summer. 

And what I consider the "palm zone" in  nw ABQ with a near virtual non existent east high wind/precipitation due to the Rincon range blockage/diversion.

Or in layman's terms, your difference at the mouth of Tijeras canyon and the sun port is like the "palm zone" vs the sun port.  Sun port is way more east wind affected.

[ChrisA]

6 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

Nice - I wanted to check out these palms in April, to see how of if the fronds were killed or browned out. I wasn't able to see them last Monday when I was up there, either. The few past Google "street views" in late winter showed that browning, but I'm curious if that frond browning happens all winters or just some winters. But I'll have to wait until next year. Does anyone go by those palms each winter to know better?

Carlsbad NM, Dallas or Midland TX, or possibly Austin may be able to challenge these NW ABQ Wash. filifera for duration of temps <32F combined with single digits, in 2021 and Dec 1983. The challenge will be to find palm or plant-related info that corresponds with that climatology. Though some palms, etc. in those southern prairies and plains locales didn't take that. The nice live oak on Garfield SE was from seed in Dallas that did take it, unlike the Q virginiana at the same location. I downloaded or bookmarked some of that climate data, including this one - https://www.weather.gov/fwd/dec1983

Those palms brown out every winter that I ever watched them.  They recover very well otherwise. In a gentle winter only the fronds that are splayed out (parallel to the ground) are burnt, and those that lie upright tend to stay green.  The spear mostly stays green.  Although I wasn't aware of these palms in the disasterous 2011 winter, I would imagine the spears stayed green in every other winter.

[jwitt]

42 minutes ago, ChrisA said:

Those palms brown out every winter that I ever watched them.  They recover very well otherwise. In a gentle winter only the fronds that are splayed out (parallel to the ground) are burnt, and those that lie upright tend to stay green.  The spear mostly stays green.  Although I wasn't aware of these palms in the disasterous 2011 winter, I would imagine the spears stayed green in every other winter.

I drive by them at least weekly.  They browned in March of this year. Not completely. 50%?

Full green til then. 

I have seen them not "brown out" many winters.

March 8, 2018,

"Those palms brown out every winter that I ever watched them"

Maybe not....

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by jwitt

[jwitt]

@Desert DAC

The sunport has more consecutive hours below freezing in the big events than these palms locales, or even colder Corrales. . 2011/1990 proves this out.  

I won't even mention those other cities. 

 

[ChrisA]

JWitt, 

Always the contrarian... They do brown out most winters.  I haven't been there for 2021 - 2023' as I live in TX now.  They may be green until after the New Year many time, but by February they're showing their winter damage. Show the photos if you  have them of staying green most winters. The fact is that they are not reliably green all winter in ABQ. In the best of winters they will be, but in most winters they won't. Fact

Edited September 23, 2023 by ChrisA

[jwitt]

@ChrisAThose palms brown out every winter that I ever watched them.

Except this winter in 2018? I wonder if you were here?

3/8/2018

Edited September 23, 2023 by jwitt
Showing pic of green palm post winter!

[jwitt]

Feb 25, 2017 for reference 

 

[jwitt]

3/25/2016

My own yard

[jwitt]

A month later in April 2016.

[Desert DAC]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:34 PM, ChrisA said:

JWitt, 

Always the contrarian... They do brown out most winters.  I haven't been there for 2021 - 2023' as I live in TX now.  They may be green until after the New Year many time, but by February they're showing their winter damage. Show the photos if you have them of staying green most winters. The fact is that they are not reliably green all winter in ABQ. In the best of winters they will be, but in most winters they won't. Fact

Thanks - I wondered about that. When I lived in cooler, wind tunnel SE ABQ, the colder periods were different enough from my years at I-40 / Coors. But since I took enough trips between ABQ and El Paso or Las Cruces while living in ABQ, I saw how good W. filifera looked down here. In our arid, sunny z8b (some areas 8a) Washingtonia filifera stays a nice green all winter, except once every 5-10 years and of course the generational (20 year) uber-freezes. Which is why when I was a landscape architect, I wouldn't specify them in central NM, even in the palm belt, though to a hobbyist or collector, just showing you have something cool that survives, but that others don't have, is part of the joy.

For me, a plant that's often used to evoke an exotic, more semi-tropical mood, it's not ideal for such a plant to go brown most winters.

[SailorBold]

To trim or not to trim?

[SailorBold]

14 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

Thanks - I wondered about that. When I lived in cooler, wind tunnel SE ABQ, the colder periods were different enough from my years at I-40 / Coors. But since I took enough trips between ABQ and El Paso or Las Cruces while living in ABQ, I saw how good W. filifera looked down here. In our arid, sunny z8b (some areas 8a) Washingtonia filifera stays a nice green all winter, except once every 5-10 years and of course the generational (20 year) uber-freezes. Which is why when I was a landscape architect, I wouldn't specify them in central NM, even in the palm belt, though to a hobbyist or collector, just showing you have something cool that survives, but that others don't have, is part of the joy.

For me, a plant that's often used to evoke an exotic, more semi-tropical mood, it's not ideal for such a plant to go brown most winters.

True and I agree.. its still an iffy climate and as time passes there are other palms which might be a good to better fit as well..  Sabal mexicana... riverside.. bxj..and jxb hybrids which are much more leaf hardy and will or should stay green most winters in ABQ..

[Las Palmas Norte]

@SailorBold Personally. I'd leave those as is for now. Looks like there's a few dead fronds but other than that, these look great.

[Teegurr]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:39 PM, jwitt said:

@ChrisAThose palms brown out every winter that I ever watched them.

Except this winter in 2018? I wonder if you were here?

3/8/2018

Maybe his standards for brown are more lenient than yours.