Miami Beach Microclimate

[cocopalm90]

Hello everyone!

I'm brand new here and new to plants. I have a question for you weather/climate experts.
I know about large bodies of water (oceans especially) helping to moderate temperatures. I also am familiar with urban heat islands. With all of this in mind, where in Miami Beach would theoretically have the warmest/most moderated microclimate?

On the map below, I would guess that the very slightly north of the dot labeled "Miami Beach - North" would be the most moderated because of the land being so thin.



What would you all say? Is there even a difference?

Thanks everyone! Glad to be here and hoping to learn a lot and contribute when I can.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Most likely anywhere around that area on the south side of a large building with direct sunlight would be the best microclimate.

[Josh-O]

Miami as a whole. 

[palmsOrl]

I agree, Miami as a whole has a tropical climate, though being at the SE tip of a large continent allows the area to in rare cases drop to freezing or slightly below.  These rare events, however, do not dictate the flora of the area as a whole in any meaningful way, excepting ultra-tropical species which actually tend to be marginal in the Miami area.  The native vegetation of the Miami area is (or was) a mix of warm temperate and tropical species and the introduced landscaping flora is almost exclusively tropical.  Closer to the coast versus areas further west and inland is also an advantage if analyzing mainland areas for areas best suited to growing the most tender of tropical palms.

Miami Beach and the barrier island as a whole as well as adjacent islands just to its south is also tropical and average low temperatures in the cooler half of the year (and extreme record lows) are significantly (though not substantially) higher than adjacent mainland areas.  For example, the lowest temperature ever recorded in Miami Beach is 32F, while Miami has been as low as 27F, Homestead 26F and Ft Lauderdale 28F.  The average low temperature in January, the coldest month is 61F in Miami Beach, 59F in Miami, 56F in Homestead and 58F in Ft Lauderdale.  Clearly, the barrier islands near Miami are a bit warmer than nearby inland areas.  Thus, it stands to reason that, based on this factor alone (excluding factors like soil quality, salt exposure, and precipitation differences) the barrier islands in and around Miami Beach have a slight edge for growing the really tender stuff.  As far as temperature goes, I don't think it really matters much from place to place on the barrier island areas in question.  That said, if I was going to plant a large (or small) Cyrtostachys renda in Miami Beach, I would look for a location with richer soil (likely amend, replace existing soil), shelter from strong, salt laden winds and I would probably select a location that would tend to confer a bit of shelter from colder temperatures, when they do seldom occur (south exposure of larger building or under some canopy, for example).

[cocopalm90]

Thanks for all of the replies guys!

If anyone else has any thoughts, feel free to respond to this thread, but I think I got everything I needed explained.

Thanks again.

[Zeeth]

5 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

I agree, Miami as a whole has a tropical climate, though being at the SE tip of a large continent allows the area to in rare cases drop to freezing or slightly below.  These rare events, however, do not dictate the flora of the area as a whole in any meaningful way, excepting ultra-tropical species which actually tend to be marginal in the Miami area.  The native vegetation of the Miami area is (or was) a mix of warm temperate and tropical species and the introduced landscaping flora is almost exclusively tropical.  Closer to the coast versus areas further west and inland is also an advantage if analyzing mainland areas for areas best suited to growing the most tender of tropical palms.

Miami Beach and the barrier island as a whole as well as adjacent islands just to its south is also tropical and average low temperatures in the cooler half of the year (and extreme record lows) are significantly (though not substantially) higher than adjacent mainland areas.  For example, the lowest temperature ever recorded in Miami Beach is 32F, while Miami has been as low as 27F, Homestead 26F and Ft Lauderdale 28F.  The average low temperature in January, the coldest month is 61F in Miami Beach, 59F in Miami, 56F in Homestead and 58F in Ft Lauderdale.  Clearly, the barrier islands near Miami are a bit warmer than nearby inland areas.  Thus, it stands to reason that, based on this factor alone (excluding factors like soil quality, salt exposure, and precipitation differences) the barrier islands in and around Miami Beach have a slight edge for growing the really tender stuff.  As far as temperature goes, I don't think it really matters much from place to place on the barrier island areas in question.  That said, if I was going to plant a large (or small) Cyrtostachys renda in Miami Beach, I would look for a location with richer soil (likely amend, replace existing soil), shelter from strong, salt laden winds and I would probably select a location that would tend to confer a bit of shelter from colder temperatures, when they do seldom occur (south exposure of larger building or under some canopy, for example).

 

One thing that I think is the deep freezes that extend all the way to the south tip of Florida. Apparently, on January 19/20 1977, Fairchild fell to 26 F, and Montomery fell to 25 F! 

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1977-vol-90/96-98%20(CLIFT).pdf

 

The Sarasota airport reported 28 F for that day. 

[displaced_floridian]

Hey Cocopalm,

Having grown up in the Miami area, and being a weather buff, I would like to give some input.  On the coldest nights in winter,  Miami Beach was often as much as 10 degrees warmer than the airport, which is about 5 mi. inland. I don't know where on Miami Beach the weather station is.  I would say that the further south you go on the island of Miami Beach, the better the microclimate. Think of it like this:  the coldest winds in S. Fla are from the NW or NNW.  The farther south you are on MB, the farther such a wind has to travel over Biscayne Bay.  Key Biscayne probably has the best microclimate in the area.

Edited December 1, 2015 by displaced_floridian
revision

[palmsOrl]

Those exceedingly rare deep freezes that fully affect all of SE FL are definitely a consideration for anywhere on the mainland.  26F at Fairchild's would be absolutely devastating!  It would be a massive dying of epic proportion for the vast majority of the palms and other plants there.  Cold this severe must be about a twice per century event for the areas discussed.  I would say once per century, not the extreme record lows in extreme SE FL did not all occur during the same event.  But temperatures in the mid 20s for Miami, especially Coral Gables would have to be a roughly once in 100 year event.

I would like to see how many times Miami itself (not cities and suburbs like Homestead that are further inland and away from the urban heat islands) went below 30F in the twentieth century.  This would provide a good general idea of how often hard freezes affect deep SE FL.

The barrier island (Miami Beach) has never officially recorded a freeze (below 32F).  I would guess that once in 100 years or so, the barrier island as a whole could see a night of 30-31F (a very light freeze), even if such an event has not yet been recorded.  With all the added heat from urbanization in the area though, this might be expected to occur less frequently than every 100 years.  I'm just speculating here.  Bottom line, I would never worry about cold damage if I lived on the barrier island and would accept that ultra tropicals may be killed or severely damaged by temperatures in the low to mid 30s a few times a century.  Other than that, I wouldn't really consider it as a factor in my tropical gardening selections and landscaping plans.  Similar, but just a tad lower in temps than the FL Keys.

[Moose]

Breadfruit is a very Tropical tree. There was a guy (forget his name) who would grow breadfruit on Miami Beach. The tree would survive on average 10 years, then he'd have to replant another. That kinda gives you a sense of the Miami Beach climate.

[displaced_floridian]

Breadfruits will slowly croak with sustained temps below 50*, and 35 degrees will kill it very quickly.

[Palmaceae]

Here is a large breadfruit tree near Key Largo, if you look closely you will see where it was cut back due to cold weather. So you can see how tender they are to cold weather.

 

[bubba]

When discussing microclimates in this area, one issue of significance not discussed is distance from the Gulfstream. The stream rolls constantly year round at 85F plus. Singer Island is the furthest Eastern point in Florida (approximately 2 miles from the stream). Places in PB jut out and are actually nip and tuck with Singer.

WeatherUnderground has a location around Lake Worth Pier that is approximately 4 miles to the stream. It is almost always 3F degrees warmer than the ocean temperatures at Virginia Key way down low. Colder it gets, the warmer the ocean is at LW v. VK. Not to sure about Breadfruit. Very nice tree.

[Yunder Wækraus]

12 hours ago, bubba said:

When discussing microclimates in this area, one issue of significance not discussed is distance from the Gulfstream. The stream rolls constantly year round at 85F plus. Singer Island is the furthest Eastern point in Florida (approximately 2 miles from the stream). Places in PB jut out and are actually nip and tuck with Singer.

WeatherUnderground has a location around Lake Worth Pier that is approximately 4 miles to the stream. It is almost always 3F degrees warmer than the ocean temperatures at Virginia Key way down low. Colder it gets, the warmer the ocean is at LW v. VK. Not to sure about Breadfruit. Very nice tree.

I'm very interested in such microclimates. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't proximity to Gulf Stream be meaningless during arctic air events moving down from NW? If so, that surely explains why points further south were the only native habitat for buccaneer palms and wild plumeria.

[palmsOrl]

Bubba, that is a great observation.  I imagine that record lows on Singer Island are not much lower than the Barrier Islands adjacent to the Ft Lauterdale/Miami area (though there are no official records from Singer Island that I am aware of to back this up).  Despite its proximity to the Gulf Stream, average temperatures are almost certainly lower on Singer island than Miami Beach.  This would rule out long-term growth of ultra-tropicals, such as breadfruit and limit many tropicals during extended cold events, such as 2010 (moreso than Miami Beach). 

I am sure the Gulf Stream helps a bit even with NW winds, but I think latitude is the most important factor when comparing low temperatures of FL East Coast barrier islands.  Also, the Gulf Stream warming effects diminish the further north along the FL East Coast you get.  Here is some data comparing Miami beach (personal weather station) to Palm Beach (personal weather station), Cocoa Beach (Cocoa Beach Pier) and Jacksonville Beach (Jax Beach Pier) during colder spells within the past 3 years.  I was ready to post data from a personal weather station on Singer Island itself, but there is no history available even going back to this past winter.

Jan. 25, 2015  Jax Beach 61F/40F  Cocoa Beach 61F/50F  Palm Beach 68F/48F  Miami Beach 72F/52F

Jan. 27, 2015  Jax Beach 61F/40F  Cocoa Beach 67F/47F  Palm Beach 69F/51F  Miami Beach 70F/55F

Jan. 28, 2015  Jax Beach 49F/39F  Cocoa Beach 58F/50F  Palm Beach 65F/52F  Miami Beach 69F/55F

Feb. 3, 2015   Jax Beach 51F/37F  Cocoa Beach 64F/51F  Palm Beach 74F/55F  Miami Beach 77F/58F

Feb. 13, 2015   Jax Beach 54F/35F  Cocoa Beach 60F/51F  Palm Beach 72F/54F  Miami Beach 76F/56F

Feb. 14, 2015  Jax Beach 61F/36F  Cocoa Beach 62F/47F  Palm Beach 66F/48F  Miami Beach 68F/48F

Feb. 19, 2015  Jax Beach 45F/31F  Cocoa Beach 51F/42F  Palm Beach 58F/45F  Miami Beach 58F/48F

Feb. 20, 2015  Jax Beach 43F/28F  Cocoa Beach 52F/39F  Palm Beach 63F/40F  Miami Beach 65F/42F

Here's some data from Juno Beach (nearest station to Singer Island I could find with 2010 data) and North Miami Beach from 2010:

Jan. 9, 2010  Juno Beach 42F/30F  N. Miami Beach 47F/35F 

Jan. 10, 2010  Juno Beach 46F/30F  N. Miami Beach 47F/35F

Jan. 11, 2010  Juno Beach 59F/31F  N. Miami Beach 59F/35F

Jan. 12, 2010  Juno Beach 63F/37F  N. Miami Beach 61F/42F

Dec. 7, 2010  Juno Beach 58F/36F  N. Miami Beach 51F/41F

Dec. 8, 2010  Juno Beach 68F/38F  N. Miami Beach 66F/42F

Dec. 13, 2010  Juno Beach 59F/31F  N. Miami Beach 62F/36F

Dec. 14, 2010  Juno Beach 53F/31F  N. Miami Beach 52F/36F

Dec. 15, 2010  Juno Beach 59F/37F  N. Miami Beach 60F/38F

Dec. 26, 2010  Juno Beach 68F/33F  N. Miami Beach 64F/41F

Dec. 27, 2010  Juno Beach 53F/33F  N. Miami Beach 55F/38F

Dec. 28, 2010  Juno Beach 59F/38F  N. Miami Beach 63F/38F

Dec. 29, 2010  Juno Beach 70F/43F  N. Miami Beach 69F/47F

One last comparison: the all-time record low for Palm Beach (barrier island) is 27F while the all-time record low for Miami Beach is 32F.

I would be interested to hear some thoughts on the above data as it relates to the differences between readings and how it possibly relates to the Gulf stream.  Also, the 2010 period selected is during record cold for both locations.  Juno Beach recorded several light freezes, where Miami Beach did not record a single one.

As Palmaceae's post indicates, the only plants that are truly marginal in Miami Beach are the ultra-tropical species, but the same goes for the FL Keys (at least the upper Keys).

Edited December 5, 2015 by palmsOrl

[bubba]

I appreciate the well articulated points. I also believe at the end of the day latitude is the  most important variable (See Breadfruit tree). However, I do believe that microclimates exist  as a result of distance from the warmth of the Gulfstream.

 My research  shows the furthest Eastern point in Florida is actually located at the extreme Northern point  of the Palm Beach Inlet.  From my own observations, this is born out by the locations  of the numerous large  commercial transport boats that wait in line to unload or load at the Port of Palm Beach. They  locate the edge of the stream and moor in that position until  they are summoned. Fortunately, they no longer are allowed to  clean their engines, which resulted in tremendous amounts of tar on the beach. This was a real problem and one of the Town's Mayors  finally called a halt  to this behavior by imposing extremely high fines  on the perpetrator's responsible.

 

My point  regarding this observation is that these commercial transport boats are normally approximately 2 miles  from shore. Accordingly, this is my gauge for the Gulfstream location. 

I know the Gulfstream location fluctuates.  However I found the following estimate of the location of the Gulfstream on May 24, 2006 at various spots:

            Port Canaveral-28 miles

             Sebastian Inlet - 24 miles 

              Fort Pierce Inlet-  16 miles 

               Lake Worth Pier-  4 miles 

               Port Everglades - 9 miles

               Fowey Rocks-  7 miles 

                Ocean Reef -  15 miles 

  The Lake Worth Pier is the closest position  measured to the most eastern point in the state of Florida and it is substantially  West of the Palm Beach Inlet.  Unfortunately  weather records for temperature do not exist for this location (Eastern Palm Beach barrier island) but the temperatures that  were posted are generally not applicable. Specifically, Juno Beach is  substantially north and at this point, the Gulfstream is moving further out.  At Jupiter Island,large amounts of tropical palms and foliage are planted but are substantially stunted compared to identical palms and foliage in  this area.    

 Temperatures reported at  Palm Beach International Airport are reported  from a northern and  completely unblocked cold hole.  This constitutes the weather reports for approximately the last 20 years. Before that time, the temperatures  were taken at an area located near the Fairgrounds  and responsible for low temperatures that one would expect  in the western outlying areas.

 Once again, it is not my intention to claim that  latitude does not constitute the overwhelming and most important factor.  However, the first  substantial group of coconut palms arrived in Palm Beach  as a result of the sinking of the Providencia, which had 20,000 coconuts on board that washed ashore in 1879.  Beyond that, anomalies exist such as the 50 foot Areca catechu at ANSG,  which appears to be the largest in Florida.  The specimen at Fairchild is approximately 22 feet tall according to their website. 

 One other additional phenomena not mentioned is the effect of Lake Okeechobee on those NW fronts  that have been discussed. I am  personally aware of microclimates that exist near the shore of Lake Okeechobee in Pahokee that I have heard described by a very long time resident, who now has passed. He was an outstanding farmer, who took meticulous notes on weather and with particularity cold weather. His house was located on Bascom Point Road and backed up on Lake Okeechobee. He swore he had never recorded a temperature below freezing and this was after the infamous 1989 freeze.  Interestingly, in both 2010 and 2012, after a severe freeze had killed all corn in the state down to Homestead,  his farm was the only known source of Florida sweet corn those two years in January.  I do believe that the location of Lake Okeechobee does have an effect that provides an additional shield  to the Arctic cold fronts that hit Florida but do not reach South Florida with the same severity.

[palmsOrl]

Bubba, 

Your absolutely right about the microclimates situation.  I wouldn't doubt that there are areas on the SE shore of the Lake, as well as the Palm Beach area (Singer Island included) that tend to be as warm for lows as Miami Beach during record freezes.  I just chose personal weather stations at Palm Beach (somewhere) and Miami Beach (somewhere) to possibly give a general idea of the differences and similarities between the two areas during cold weather.  I threw in Cocoa Beach And Jax Beach to show just how much colder barrier island locations further north on the east coast can be.  I wish, like you, that I could find data for a Palm Beach (esp. Singer Island) location going further back than this year.  The one Singer Island personal weather station I found only goes back a few months from the present, but may be helpful in the future.

Even these locations are very unlikely to happen to be in one of the warmest microclimates in each respective area.  So, one could realistically assume readings higher by 1-3F for the warmest spots at each location.

I have long been fascinated by the historical account of how the coconut palm arrived in FL at Palm Beach.  It certainly is a great climate for coconuts.  I have read in past Palmtalk threads speculation that coconuts existed in the FL Keys or possibly even the mainland before the 19th century (probably just a few scattered individuals).

That betel nut in Palm Beach attests to the warm microclimate at the garden, even during 2010.  Would you believe I planted an 8 footer in my yard here a couple months ago?  How crazy is that?

I had no idea corn was grown commercially in FL whatsoever.  It is strange to think of a traditionally northern crop being destroyed by cold in S FL!  But I understand how a freeze sensitive summer crop could be killed when grown as a winter crop in FL.  Your account by your friend who lived on Lake Okeechobee is in line with previous information I had read about basically frost free spots in that area, specifically near Pahokee.  According to the website from which I get much of my weather data (wunderground), there is a station in the middle of Lake Okeechobee (the map shows the station toward the SE portion but near the middle of the Lake, station "Pahokee, FL [ML 006]") that actually has data from 2010.  I don't want to go nuts posting a bunch more data, but this station's lowest recorded temperature during the year 2010 was 35F.  I imagine the climate in Pahokee itself and other areas right on the SE lake shore is comparable to this station in the middle of the lake.

[Eric in Orlando]

There was a palm collector in Jupiter who had Licuala grandis, Pritchardia pacifica (about 20ft tall) and Copernicia ekmanii survive the 2009-10 winter when others further south were killed. He lived on the mainland near Center St. and A1A, right on the south side of a wide piont in the Loxahatchee River. Seems to be some very warm microclimates in that area. I've seen some very tall, older looking Cocos around.

[Eric in Orlando]

I remember years ago going to a CFPACS meeting in Miami. We went to a palm collectors house just down the street from Fairchild. He had a Breadfruit tree growing up by the house, maybe 8-9ft tall. He said it would die back almost every winter but grew back, So I tried one here in Orlando to see if it was root hardy and would grow up as a tropical perennial. It survived the first winter, about 4ft tall. Didn't really get much below about 38-40F. It died back to about a foot and grew back weakly. It was killed the next winter.

[Yunder Wækraus]

17 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Bubba, 

Your absolutely right about the microclimates situation.  I wouldn't doubt that there are areas on the SE shore of the Lake, as well as the Palm Beach area (Singer Island included) that tend to be as warm for lows as Miami Beach during record freezes.  I just chose personal weather stations at Palm Beach (somewhere) and Miami Beach (somewhere) to possibly give a general idea of the differences and similarities between the two areas during cold weather.  I threw in Cocoa Beach And Jax Beach to show just how much colder barrier island locations further north on the east coast can be.  I wish, like you, that I could find data for a Palm Beach (esp. Singer Island) location going further back than this year.  The one Singer Island personal weather station I found only goes back a few months from the present, but may be helpful in the future.

Even these locations are very unlikely to happen to be in one of the warmest microclimates in each respective area.  So, one could realistically assume readings higher by 1-3F for the warmest spots at each location.

I have long been fascinated by the historical account of how the coconut palm arrived in FL at Palm Beach.  It certainly is a great climate for coconuts.  I have read in past Palmtalk threads speculation that coconuts existed in the FL Keys or possibly even the mainland before the 19th century (probably just a few scattered individuals).

That betel nut in Palm Beach attests to the warm microclimate at the garden, even during 2010.  Would you believe I planted an 8 footer in my yard here a couple months ago?  How crazy is that?

I had no idea corn was grown commercially in FL whatsoever.  It is strange to think of a traditionally northern crop being destroyed by cold in S FL!  But I understand how a freeze sensitive summer crop could be killed when grown as a winter crop in FL.  Your account by your friend who lived on Lake Okeechobee is in line with previous information I had read about basically frost free spots in that area, specifically near Pahokee.  According to the website from which I get much of my weather data (wunderground), there is a station in the middle of Lake Okeechobee (the map shows the station toward the SE portion but near the middle of the Lake, station "Pahokee, FL [ML 006]") that actually has data from 2010.  I don't want to go nuts posting a bunch more data, but this station's lowest recorded temperature during the year 2010 was 35F.  I imagine the climate in Pahokee itself and other areas right on the SE lake shore is comparable to this station in the middle of the lake.

It always amazes me how little people realize that the Glades were originally used (almost solely) to grow vegetables. Big sugar moved in and pushed a lot of the smaller farmers out. My granddaddy made a good living off of cabbage and beans (he'd have a fresh crop ready just in time for Thanksgiving and would drive it from the Glades all the way to NY himself for maximum profit; this would have been in the late 1940s/early 1950s), and my great grandfather grew black-eyed peas and, I believe, corn. The taste of that Glades corn in legendary in our family. Last year, my cousin's husband brought a big box of it up to Alabama so my aunt (who was born and raised in South Bay, FL) could enjoy what she considers to be the best corn she's ever tasted. 

Re: Okeechobee microclimate, my dad has told me that the lip of the lake and that area up around Pahokee are virtually frost-free zones. He was born in the 1940s, and lived his whole childhood and much of his adult life in the Glades, and he remembers frosts falling not far from his childhood home in South Bay that didn't touch anything right on the SE parts of the lake.

I like this Singer Island theory. I absolutely love obscure microclimates, and the best way to find a really stable one is to look for unusual native species. (A great example in CA is the Monterey peninsula, where two species of conifer that were once much more common were confined in modern times because the peninsula's combination of moisture [not shared by SoCal] and extra mild winter lows.) I know you've presented the story of the coconuts and one tropical tree, but are there any indications that extra tropical plants native to FL were found there and not further north or west?

[palmsOrl]

Eric,

I think I remember a thread about those palms surviving in Jupiter shortly after the 2010 carnage.  No doubt the Loxahatchee River has much to do with that particular microclimate.  Also, I can relate to your experience with breadfruit.  A gentleman at a nursery in Apopka bought about 5 plants to possibly sell, but they only keep their tropical greenhouse heated to the upper 30s - low 40s on the coldest nights, so they were all trashed of course.  One plant of the bunch still had a firm (not mushy and rotten) stem and what looked like the start of a new growth at the top.  He gave it to me and I was so sure it was going to pull through for me.  Alas, it did not, despite me putting it in my greenhouse just to give it a boost (and out of necessity due to some late cold we had) this February.  This plant/tree is about as ultra tropical as it gets.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to learn something more about our home state.  Really wish I could try some of that corn right about now!  

When I said frost free, I really should have said "freeze-free", as frost can occur up to the low 40s, and 37-43F is certainly not unheard of, even on the SE shore of Lake Okeechobee.

I will start keeping track of this Singer Island station's data over the next couple winters (assuming it maintains operation) and compare it to some reliable stations in other parts of S. FL.  Should be interesting.  I also find microclimates fascinating, as much so when the microclimate allows an isolated, small location to harbor species typically found further north instead.  An example of this is the Devil's Millhopper Geological State Park near Gainesville, FL.  It is centered around a 120 foot deep sinkhole that creates a cooler, moister climate than is found anywhere else in FL.  This climate allows a number of tree, fern and other plant species from much further north (like Southern Appalacia) to grow just in this one sinkhole.  Granted, North Florida's relatively cool/chilly winters already allow the region to share many species with areas much further north.  But this sinkhole apparently has species not even found as far south as anywhere in the FL Panhandle.

I am not aware of any plant species (not that there aren't a few) that would be considered ultra tropical being native to anywhere in FL.  I consider ultra-tropical to generally mean, a plant, which is damaged or killed by acute, short-lived cold temperatures in excess of freezing (even 40F +) and in the absence of frost.  While I doubt there are any plant species native to FL that couldn't handle a brief dip to say 35-40F, who knows?  I do know of many truly tropical species native to Southern Florida (and some even coastal Central FL), some of which are only found on the very southern tip of FL or even just the Keys.  Roystonea regia/elata might fall into this category (truly tropical).  Do you think of other FL native palms, such as Pseudophoenix, Thrinax, Leucothrinax and Coccothrinax, as truly tropical?  The bromeliad Guzmania monostachia, as well as the ghost orchid (Dendrophylax lindenii) and the Brassia caudata are certainly strictly tropical and are not AT ALL tolerant of freezing temperatures.  These are just a few examples.

 

[Eric in Orlando]

The most cold sensitive tree I can think of being native to SoFL is Cordia sebestena, Geiger Tree. 

[Zeeth]

6 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

The most cold sensitive tree I can think of being native to SoFL is Cordia sebestena, Geiger Tree. 

 

How would it compare to Guaiacum sanctum or Swietenia mahagoni?

[Bill H2DB]

   Corn info :

Click on the map links in the text to see where some is grown .

http://erec.ifas.ufl.edu/fciig/sfcp.htm

[monkeyranch]

How does the hardiness of bursera simaruba compare to C. sebestena and what does its distribution and form look like as you move north up the coasts? 

These discussions always remind us that plant range boundaries are always in flux and move north and south, during warmer or colder periods over decades or centuries.  White Mangrove for example extends north to Cedar Key during warm periods but gets knocked back to Tampa Bay/St Pete with hundreds of years interval cold spells.

It would seem somewhere in Key Biscayne there should be a suitable architectural space between a few bulidings radiating heat during cold spells to succeed with something as cold sensitive as cyrtostachys.  It has the longest distance over the bay to the mainland of the barrier islands.  Probably an even better chance of success on Sands, Elliot, Totten or other keys in the National Park.  Anyone know a park ranger or caretaker on one of the old settlements on the islands to recruit to the experiment?

BTW, along with Live Oak, bursera is one of Florida's finest trees, one of my favorites.  A few years back I was impressed by another bursera species south of Puerto Vallarta which formed a huge arching canopy over the road.  This was in the area of the recent Cat 5 hurricane Patricia this fall where the banana fields were flattened.  I wonder if this huge species was as hurricane tolerant as the Florida variety?

Oops, off-course captain.  Back to Miami.

[palmsOrl]

13 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

The most cold sensitive tree I can think of being native to SoFL is Cordia sebestena, Geiger Tree. 

Since you posted this, I have read some interesting and conflicting information about the Geiger Tree.  Some sources indicate that it is quite tender and dies at 32F, while others advocate it for zone 9b in FL!  Also, a poster on a gardening board claimed that this species is not truly native to FL, but rather was introduced from Cuba early on.  The official information suggests that it is indeed native, so I will go with that.  Certainly a gorgeous tree.  I plan to give one a try and see just how cold sensitive it really is.  Though I am sure you have had experience with this tree Eric, so you must have found it to be pretty cold tender.  I wonder how tender the FL native coffee species is.  I suspect it is quite tropical in its requirements.  I only have experience with the commonly sold coffee plant though, which defoliates the second it hits 32F.  It does grow back from the roots/stem though (I am sure a freeze below 30F would kill it completely).

I have a 5 foot Swietenia mahagoni (west Indian mahogany) planted.  I had thought its native range extended all the way to coastal Central FL (like gumbo limbo), but it apparently only inhabits the very southern tip of the FL Peninsula and the FL Keys, so it is presumably quite cold tender and my tree's days might be limited 

The black mangrove can actually be found in parts of coastal Texas, Louisiana and the FL Panahandle.  I even came across an article featuring photos of some small red mangroves (more cold sensitive than the black mangrove) starting to inhabit St. Georges Island in North Florida.

I wouldn't doubt that there are at least a few Cyrtostachys renda planted around Key Biscayne at some of the high end homes there.  

Anyways, the bottom line about Miami Beach and surrounding barrier islands is that it is certainly as warm as it gets anywhere in FL besides the Keys.  I wouldn't hold back on planting pretty much anything there, ultra tropical palms included.

[Yunder Wækraus]

6 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

   Corn info :

Click on the map links in the text to see where some is grown .

http://erec.ifas.ufl.edu/fciig/sfcp.htm

Nice to see the Glades are still #1 for sweet corn in FL! :-)

[Yunder Wækraus]

12 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

Since you posted this, I have read some interesting and conflicting information about the Geiger Tree.  Some sources indicate that it is quite tender and dies at 32F, while others advocate it for zone 9b in FL!  Also, a poster on a gardening board claimed that this species is not truly native to FL, but rather was introduced from Cuba early on.  The official information suggests that it is indeed native, so I will go with that.  Certainly a gorgeous tree.  I plan to give one a try and see just how cold sensitive it really is.  Though I am sure you have had experience with this tree Eric, so you must have found it to be pretty cold tender.  I wonder how tender the FL native coffee species is.  I suspect it is quite tropical in its requirements.  I only have experience with the commonly sold coffee plant though, which defoliates the second it hits 32F.  It does grow back from the roots/stem though (I am sure a freeze below 30F would kill it completely).

I have a 5 foot Swietenia mahagoni (west Indian mahogany) planted.  I had thought its native range extended all the way to coastal Central FL (like gumbo limbo), but it apparently only inhabits the very southern tip of the FL Peninsula and the FL Keys, so it is presumably quite cold tender and my tree's days might be limited 

The black mangrove can actually be found in parts of coastal Texas, Louisiana and the FL Panahandle.  I even came across an article featuring photos of some small red mangroves (more cold sensitive than the black mangrove) starting to inhabit St. Georges Island in North Florida.

I wouldn't doubt that there are at least a few Cyrtostachys renda planted around Key Biscayne at some of the high end homes there.  

Anyways, the bottom line about Miami Beach and surrounding barrier islands is that it is certainly as warm as it gets anywhere in FL besides the Keys.  I wouldn't hold back on planting pretty much anything there, ultra tropical palms included.

I have really enjoyed this thread. I didn't even know about the Geiger tree! 

[Eric in Orlando]

17 hours ago, Zeeth said:

 

[Eric in Orlando]

Geiger Tree is much more tender than Bursera simaruba, Guaiacum sanctum or Swietenia mahagoni. I have all 3 growing here. But I have tried Cordia sebestena several times and it always dies when it gets below 32F and doesn't come back from the roots. They were smaller trees so maybe larger speciemens are a bit hardier. I have seen some planted over on Merritt Island.

Paradise Tree, Simarouba glauca is also hardier than Geiger Tree and has grown well here.

[Eric in Orlando]

10 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Since you posted this, I have read some interesting and conflicting information about the Geiger Tree.  Some sources indicate that it is quite tender and dies at 32F, while others advocate it for zone 9b in FL!  Also, a poster on a gardening board claimed that this species is not truly native to FL, but rather was introduced from Cuba early on.  The official information suggests that it is indeed native, so I will go with that.  Certainly a gorgeous tree.  I plan to give one a try and see just how cold sensitive it really is.  Though I am sure you have had experience with this tree Eric, so you must have found it to be pretty cold tender.  I wonder how tender the FL native coffee species is.  I suspect it is quite tropical in its requirements.  I only have experience with the commonly sold coffee plant though, which defoliates the second it hits 32F.  It does grow back from the roots/stem though (I am sure a freeze below 30F would kill it completely).

I have a 5 foot Swietenia mahagoni (west Indian mahogany) planted.  I had thought its native range extended all the way to coastal Central FL (like gumbo limbo), but it apparently only inhabits the very southern tip of the FL Peninsula and the FL Keys, so it is presumably quite cold tender and my tree's days might be limited 

The black mangrove can actually be found in parts of coastal Texas, Louisiana and the FL Panahandle.  I even came across an article featuring photos of some small red mangroves (more cold sensitive than the black mangrove) starting to inhabit St. Georges Island in North Florida.

I wouldn't doubt that there are at least a few Cyrtostachys renda planted around Key Biscayne at some of the high end homes there.  

Anyways, the bottom line about Miami Beach and surrounding barrier islands is that it is certainly as warm as it gets anywhere in FL besides the Keys.  I wouldn't hold back on planting pretty much anything there, ultra tropical palms included.

 

 

The native coffee grows fine here, in fact it is native in moist woods up into Flagler County and inland up to Marion Co. It will die back around 30F but comes back. This is Pychotria nervosa. We also are growing another native species; P. sulzneri which is also native up to Volusia, Lake and Seminole counties. there are 2 other FL native species; P. ligustrifolia native to Dade Co and the Keys and P. punctata, native to just the Keys. I planted a P. ligustrifolia out this spring so am curious on the hardiness.

The true coffee, Coffea arabica, is very foliage tender. 32-34F will defoliate it. But it can survive brief upper 20s, below about 27-28 will knock it to the roots. The red berry is edible and sweet. So if you find a nice shady, wind sheltered spot it will grow here.

[bubba]

 A little further analysis on the interesting topic of microclimates. I have reviewed information  on weather underground from the PBIA ( airport )  and a location  near the beach at Worth Ave. in PB (KFLPALMB56).  This is a reliable weather station but unfortunately only has data commencing from the very end  of 2013. This is the case with numerous personal weather stations  that only have recent data. 

 I have compared the coldest days in January  of 2014.  The  microclimate is revealed in the disparity between the low temperatures. The  range is between 2-10 degrees F. with the average being approximately 7 degrees F. warmer at the beach location.  This certainly reflects a major microclimate closer to the Gulfstream.

 The following examples constitute the six coldest days in January 2014 with the PBIA High and Low temperature on top with the PB High and Low on the bottom for each day:

1/16/14- High  Low (F)

               61      43

               60.3    50.2

1/17/14-  64      40

                66.6   45

1/18/14-  66       42

                66.4    51.4

1/19/14-  69       39

                70      41.2

1/22/14-   62      45

                 62.8   50.4

1/23/14-   64      38

                 67.8   45

 On warmer days, high temperatures at the more inland airport  were a bit higher but the low temperatures on the beach location still were several degrees warmer. 

 If we assume that this 5-7 degree F  disparity exists historically, the  historical lows may be as much as 5-7 degree F. higher than reported at the airport  and perhaps substantially higher than the historical records located in outying areas.  Interesting stuff !

 

 

 

[palmsOrl]

Thank you Bubba for taking the time to do some additional research into this interesting topic.  Your data further supports what I would expect to be the difference in climate between the mainland and the barrier island in this area during colder weather.  Some Palm Beach barrier island locations may be zone 11 (even the barrier island as whole).  So, I wonder if Palm Beach (or Singer Island) are the northernmost zone 11 areas on the FL East Coast.  I'm guessing so.

[bubba]

I just checked the Pahokee site for weather details during the Jan. 2010 extended period of cold weather. The official PBIA site, where climate data has been accumulated since the 1970's, reported a low temperature of 32F on one day during this ten (10) day cold event. The PBIA official site is located at the airport in a wide open area without vegetation (runways?). There is no question that it's data constitutes lower temperatures during cold events than those experienced in the general PB area.

The coldest temperature recorded at Pahokee during this cold event in Jan. 2010 was 37F. While data for the Palm Beach site on Weather Underground only goes back to 2014, I believe the climate data accumulated during the coldest dates in Jan. 2014 is relevant. The average low temperature in Jan. 2014 at the PB site was an average of 6.3 F warmer than the low temperatures recorded at PBIA. This weather station is located on Sunrise Avenue in PB but closer to the Intracoastal than the warmer ocean.

The anomaly evidenced by the PBIA site contrasted to both the Pahokee data and what can be extrapolated from the average differential reported during cold events at the PB site above-described was verified by personal observations. Highly sensitive tropical vegetation, was unhappy during the Jan. 2010 cold event but unscathed. No issues with bananas, Licuala grandis, Areca catechu, Neoveitchia storckii and even Pritchardia thurstonia and Pacifica survived in unexposed locations. 

As it relates to the undeniable microclimates discussed and observed, it would be an interesting experiment to maintain a bona fide WS as close as possible to the Atlantic at the place in greatest proximity to the Gulfstream. The same is true with Pahokee, which appears to only go back to 2008. That stated, at the end of the day, the results of any WS are readily observable by the effects of any cold event on the vegetation.

[Yunder Wækraus]

52 minutes ago, bubba said:

I just checked the Pahokee site for weather details during the Jan. 2010 extended period of cold weather. The official PBIA site, where climate data has been accumulated since the 1970's, reported a low temperature of 32F on one day during this ten (10) day cold event. The PBIA official site is located at the airport in a wide open area without vegetation (runways?). There is no question that it's data constitutes lower temperatures during cold events than those experienced in the general PB area.

The coldest temperature recorded at Pahokee during this cold event in Jan. 2010 was 37F. While data for the Palm Beach site on Weather Underground only goes back to 2014, I believe the climate data accumulated during the coldest dates in Jan. 2014 is relevant. The average low temperature in Jan. 2014 at the PB site was an average of 6.3 F warmer than the low temperatures recorded at PBIA. This weather station is located on Sunrise Avenue in PB but closer to the Intracoastal than the warmer ocean.

The anomaly evidenced by the PBIA site contrasted to both the Pahokee data and what can be extrapolated from the average differential reported during cold events at the PB site above-described was verified by personal observations. Highly sensitive tropical vegetation, was unhappy during the Jan. 2010 cold event but unscathed. No issues with bananas, Licuala grandis, Areca catechu, Neoveitchia storckii and even Pritchardia thurstonia and Pacifica survived in unexposed locations. 

As it relates to the undeniable microclimates discussed and observed, it would be an interesting experiment to maintain a bona fide WS as close as possible to the Atlantic at the place in greatest proximity to the Gulfstream. The same is true with Pahokee, which appears to only go back to 2008. That stated, at the end of the day, the results of any WS are readily observable by the effects of any cold event on the vegetation.

Very interesting. Invasive reptiles are another fantastic tool for diagnosing micro-climates. I find it troubling that there are no wild green iguanas on Barrier Island here in Brevard, and I don't buy that they just haven't gotten here yet. I reckon a few have made it up here over the last 30 years only to be frozen out. By the reptile measure, Cape Coral and all of Lake Okeechobee's immediate shore area are close enough to tropical for my purposes. I swear I read somewhere that reptile dealers became aware of Pahokee's micro-climate and released lizards there to breed, but I can't find the reference, and it must remain apocryphal.

[Zeeth]

8 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Very interesting. Invasive reptiles are another fantastic tool for diagnosing micro-climates. I find it troubling that there are no wild green iguanas on Barrier Island here in Brevard, and I don't buy that they just haven't gotten here yet. I reckon a few have made it up here over the last 30 years only to be frozen out. By the reptile measure, Cape Coral and all of Lake Okeechobee's immediate shore area are close enough to tropical for my purposes. I swear I read somewhere that reptile dealers became aware of Pahokee's micro-climate and released lizards there to breed, but I can't find the reference, and it must remain apocryphal.

One of my friends grew up in downtown Bradenton and says that you see wild green iguanas there sometimes. Back in 2014 he was telling me about how he saw one that was about 5 or 6 feet long. 

I think that they don't do as well as down south because of the lower maximum temperatures in winter. Spots like Anna Maria island or the barrier island in Brevard have similar average lows for January to locations further south (56˚ for both locations, compared to between 57˚ for Palm Beach, and 50˚ for the Sarasota airport and Melbourne airport), but the highs are much cooler than further south (70˚ for AMI and the Brevard barrier island, compared to 75˚ for Palm Beach, and 70˚ for the Sarasota airport and Melbourne airport).

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

1 hour ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Very interesting. Invasive reptiles are another fantastic tool for diagnosing micro-climates. I find it troubling that there are no wild green iguanas on Barrier Island here in Brevard, and I don't buy that they just haven't gotten here yet. I reckon a few have made it up here over the last 30 years only to be frozen out. By the reptile measure, Cape Coral and all of Lake Okeechobee's immediate shore area are close enough to tropical for my purposes. I swear I read somewhere that reptile dealers became aware of Pahokee's micro-climate and released lizards there to breed, but I can't find the reference, and it must remain apocryphal.

There was an article just recently discussing sightings of iguanas running around the canal areas in Cocoa Beach. I personally haven't seen any iguanas here. However the local Ace Hardware sells an Iguana-rid product so maybe other people are dealing with them. There is also a very prolific population of Bahamian Curly Tail lizards here as well. I see those daily.

[Yunder Wækraus]

2 minutes ago, Cocoa Beach Jason said:

There was an article just recently discussing sightings of iguanas running around the canal areas in Cocoa Beach. I personally haven't seen any iguanas here. However the local Ace Hardware sells an Iguana-rid product so maybe other people are dealing with them. There is also a very prolific population of Bahamian Curly Tail lizards here as well. I see those daily.

I've seen a single curly tail on the island and zero signs of iguanas

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

1 hour ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I've seen a single curly tail on the island and zero signs of iguanas

I havent seen the iguanas myself either. Just the Florida Today article. But the curly tails are everywhere along A1A in Cocoa Beach. My office is on A1A and I have to avoid stepping them as the herds of them scurry under my feet every morning. Downtown Cocoa Beach area is a hot spot for them. Walk around there while looking down and you will see many. 

[Jimbean]

I've seen those too on Merritt Island.  I have not seen iguanas, but I have heard that they are around.

[bubba]

Interesting observations. Curly Tailed lizards (Leiocephalus carinatus) are a staple in PB and in fact were introduced in  Western Palm Beach County (Glades) in the 1940s from the  Bahamas to control insect pests in the 1940s common to sugarcane.  They have spread South to  Broward and Monroe County. Strangely, Dade  County has had another subspecies  since the mid-1930s. They have spread north to Martin County in 1994  but have not been observed in St. Lucie or Indian River County. They  have been observed in Brevard County in 2002. In Collier County, they are limited to Chokoloskee.  They appear prehistoric but are courageous and hold their ground. 

 Another oddity  I uncovered in this research has to do with the strange paradigm of the Australian Melaleuca tree  and the lake Okeechobee Pond Apple tree (Annoma glabra).  In the late 1800s, the South of Lake Okeechobee was  covered by a 150,000 acre Pond Apple forest. The Pond Apple forest was  virtually removed completely by farmers who discovered black gold ( Yunder can you say muck). Farms took  over the mystical Pond Apple forests  that were so thick  that they barely allowed sunshine according to  Lawrence Will. In 1912, the Pond Apple was introduced to Australia as a graph for other Annomas. This  did not prove to be the best move and they are now a very problematic invasive pest for the wetlands of tropical Queensland up to Darwin.

 At nearly the same time, the  Australian Melaleuca tree was introduced to South Florida initially as a sought after ornamental. In the early 1940's the U.S. Corp. of Army Engineers introduced the Melaleuca to the Dike surrounding Lake Okeechobee and then proceeded with an aggressive plan to scatter millions of Melaleuca seeds by airplane throughout the Everglades with the aim of drying the swamp. Needless to say, this ill advised adventure gifted South Florida with an unending supply of noxious paper trees without any apparent positive result.

Next the Iguanas...