Jubutyagrus

[merrill]

Hi, Mark:

Can you tell us more of the history of the plumose Butyagrus? Were all of its siblings nonplumose? Has it seeded yet? Hope I'm not a nuisance, but it is supremely interesting!

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Mark Heath]

Hi, Mark:

Can you tell us more of the history of the plumose Butyagrus? Were all of its siblings nonplumose? Has it seeded yet? Hope I'm not a nuisance, but it is supremely interesting!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill,

You have never been a nuisance, i can't say the same for me though!! The XButyagrus pictured is from the same parents as the all the others. I have some weird ones at the palm grove as well but they have aligned leafs and are

extremely non-plumose but yet have the same parents. Here is a pic, it does'nt do it justice, it looks like a

BXS.Schizophylla up close,,, which it is'nt.

[buffy]

Thank You, Buffy! It is perfectly plausible that Allagoptera would produce a plumose hybrid with Butia! I'm very grateful to you. Any chance of a photo of Allagoptera X Butia? Many Thanks & Best Wishes, merrill

I just vaguely remember someone showing a picture of one on here. I couldn't find thread with the crappy search feature.

[Nigel]

Hi, Mark:

Can you tell us more of the history of the plumose Butyagrus? Were all of its siblings nonplumose? Has it seeded yet? Hope I'm not a nuisance, but it is supremely interesting!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill,

You have never been a nuisance, i can't say the same for me though!! The XButyagrus pictured is from the same parents as the all the others. I have some weird ones at the palm grove as well but they have aligned leafs and are

extremely non-plumose but yet have the same parents. Here is a pic, it does'nt do it justice, it looks like a

BXS.Schizophylla up close,,, which it is'nt.

Mark this one looks like it has a big slice of Butia in it for my eyes.

Lovely palm.

[Mark Heath]

Hi, Mark:

Can you tell us more of the history of the plumose Butyagrus? Were all of its siblings nonplumose? Has it seeded yet? Hope I'm not a nuisance, but it is supremely interesting!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill,

You have never been a nuisance, i can't say the same for me though!! The XButyagrus pictured is from the same parents as the all the others. I have some weird ones at the palm grove as well but they have aligned leafs and are

extremely non-plumose but yet have the same parents. Here is a pic, it does'nt do it justice, it looks like a

BXS.Schizophylla up close,,, which it is'nt.

Mark this one looks like it has a big slice of Butia in it for my eyes.

Lovely palm.

Thank you Nigel,

I have a few out there that are showing the same characteristics. I'll take a closer look next time i am there.

[merrill]

Hi, Mark:

Can you tell us more of the history of the plumose Butyagrus? Were all of its siblings nonplumose? Has it seeded or fruited yet? Hope I'm not a nuisance, but it is supremely interesting!

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Mark Heath]

Hi, Mark:

Can you tell us more of the history of the plumose Butyagrus? Were all of its siblings nonplumose? Has it seeded or fruited yet? Hope I'm not a nuisance, but it is supremely interesting!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Hi Merrill,

The plumose Mule is the only one like it. It's siblings look like your typical Mule and are growing right next to

it. It has'nt flowered yet unlike alot of it's siblings. I need to measure the width of a leaflet, they are the widest i have ever seen! It is very rare and i plan to move it right behind my back porch where i sit from time to time and i can enjoy it more. The pollen donor (Queen), flowered first when tall and has wide leaflets as well.

This is what i imagine Dr Raulersons' backcross would've looked like when larger than in the picture you shared a long time ago in your article.

[merrill]

Hi, Mark:

There was a black and white photo which altho only a couple of months newer than the colored photo to which you refer, showed considerable growth, as one would expect. I'll see if I can find it.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[palm student]

Merrill,

I remember seeing a post of a double cross that is at the Bishock's garden but one you had a hand in. It was very beautiful . I don't know the sequence of crosses.

Can you please post a picture of it in this thread.

Palm Student

[merrill]

Hi, Suzanne:

Can you give this tired old brain a bit more info to try to sort this out? I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your interest.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[TimHopper]

It is amazing to me that there is so many variable traits among XButyagrus siblings. Having grown so many of them I can attest that they may be similar as small trees, but each individual's traits are augmented with age. I have XButyagrus six years old from the same brood that are all different sizes and shapes that look very different from one another. I have tried back-crossing several of them with queen pollen, but have had no luck yet. I have some others that have not yet produced spathes. The BxQxQ is on my list. I sure hope to accomplish it some day. The right combination must be out there somewhere. Tim

[PalmGuyWC]

I have 3 old XButyagrus about 35 years old and they all look entirely different from each other. One has grown into a monster palm with a 22" trunk and it's actually crowding out a Jubaea near it.

Does anyone have a Syagrus X Butia with trunk?

Dick

[iamjv]

Dick, so I take it these three XButyagrus saw the 14F temps you had way back when... how did they fair? Jv

[FRITO]

Dick, Scott in Tampa has the only large Syagrus x Butia that I know of.

[pogobob]

Anyone interesred in syagrus abreojos pollen?

[PalmGuyWC]

John,

Only the 3 or 4 center fronds remained green on my Mules in the big freeze. All of the outer fronds were burned brown. As I recall it took a year and a half until they grew another green crown, but there was no permanent damage. The mules were a good size and had several feet of woody trunks. After a low of 14 F. I had night after night in the teens and it lasted about 2 weeks.

Frito,

Any chance of getting a picture of Scott's Syagrus X Butia? I've only seen one and it looked like a strange looking Queen palm. It was also growing in the Tampa area.

Dick

[Mark Heath]

Anyone interesred in syagrus abreojos pollen?

Bob,

I am VERY interested!!! I'll share the seeds w/ you. I would love to cross it w/ my Butia.C and see what kind of Mule we get! Very plumose i would imagine.

Mark

Dick,

Merrill has a huge Syagrus x Butia w/ alot of trunk! Maybe we can get him to post a pick!

I have seen a pic of Scott in tampa SXB and it is good sized for sure!

[M@ximus]

Anyone interesred in syagrus abreojos pollen?

I sent you a pm!!

I have two butia capitata and 1 eriospatha that will produce fruits this year, and i would like attempt to produce some hybrids

Best M@x

[pogobob]

Wow! now I did it, I'll have to risk my neck and climb the damn tree for you guys and shake some powder off the flowers, me and my big mouth!

[Mark Heath]

Wow! now I did it, I'll have to risk my neck and climb the damn tree for you guys and shake some powder off the flowers, me and my big mouth!

No worries Bob!! If that is the technique you plan on using for collecting pollen then don't worry about me! You would not be able to collect enough for me and other people too!!

I allways cut the entire inflorescence down on the first day of opening and put in at least 5 brown paper bags and heat them for two days so i can get a boatload of pollen.

But w/ your palm everybody is buying your seeds, so it would'nt be a good idea to whack the entire thing down.

Thank you though for your generousity!!!!

Mark

[merrill]

Quoting: TimHopper

Rank: SEEDLING

Group:

Forum Members Posts:

232 Joined:

20-June 06 Location:St Augustine Florida Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:13 AM

It is amazing to me that there is so many variable traits among XButyagrus siblings. Having grown so many of them I can attest that they may be similar as small trees, but each individual's traits are augmented with age. I have XButyagrus six years old from the same brood that are all different sizes and shapes that look very different from one another. I have tried back-crossing several of them with queen pollen, but have had no luck yet. I have some others that have not yet produced spathes. The BxQxQ is on my list. I sure hope to accomplish it some day. The right combination must be out there somewhere. Tim

Tim Hopper

Anastasia Island

St Augustine Florida

TimHoppers@aol.com :cool:

Hi, Tim:

My experience has been like yours, or perhaps even more variable! Of course, my hybrids were an extreme mixture. If I were to start over on my row of XButyagrus, I'd choose hybrids w/ the same parents - as a matter of fact, think I'll do it at Forest Grove, if I still have some siblings. I've had extreme attacks from rodents.

More to the point, Frank and Elaine Lewis for the most part have a single female parent, and a single male parent. Their Butyagrus are the most uniform I've seen. They are in St. Augustine, [more specifically Moultrie, FL] 3075 Old Moultrie Road 32086, Tele 904 794 1363.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[merrill]

Quoting Suzanne Rowlands:

"Merrill,

I remember seeing a post of a double cross that is at the Bishock's garden but one you had a hand in. It was very beautiful . I don't know the sequence of crosses.

Can you please post a picture of it in this thread.

Palm Student,

Suzanne Rowlands"

Hi, Suzanne:

I've wracked my brain to answer your above query. My best guess is XJubutyagrus, which is a little less than a double cross; don't think there are any in the Bishock garden. XJubutyagrus is in the second photo in post #387 in this thread. Thank you very much for your interest. Please let me know if this is the palm you're interested in; if not, I'll try harder!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited May 24, 2010 by merrill

[Mark Heath]

Merrill,

I hope you read this. Did you recieve the XButyagrus F2 seeds???? Please let me know what you found when you cracked them open. I hope to use the Mule to cross pollinate w/ Queen. It would be helpfull to know if it produces viable seed. I sent the seeds to you a while back and have'nt heard from you and your PM box is full!

Mark

[Alicehunter2000]

"Frank and Elaine Lewis for the most part have a single female parent, and a single male parent. Their Butyagrus are the most uniform I've seen. They are in St. Augustine, [more specifically Moultrie, FL] 3075 Old Moultrie Road 32086, Tele 904 794 1363 ."

This is a Moultrie Butyagrus planted in 2008 from a 1 gallon. It is just now starting to put on some growth and speed.

[Alicehunter2000]

Anyone interesred in syagrus abreojos pollen?

I wouldn't mind a small amount....but only after the guys with experience in hybridizing get theirs. I would be a complete novice at attempting a cross....using the instructions found in this post. Here is the potential mama butia....as you can see, she is quite fertile pushing out 6-8 spathes per year.

Bob...I guess I'm going to re-soak those seeds I got from you. All of them were heavy sinkers, so I'm sure they are good....just my bad germination technique.

[Tampa Scott]

Frito,

Any chance of getting a picture of Scott's Syagrus X Butia? I've only seen one and it looked like a strange looking Queen palm. It was also growing in the Tampa area.

Dick

Here it is... IMO not as nice looking as BxS.

[The Germinator]

Yo Steve,

"Draft Mule Palm" is such an inelegant name for what should be a very spectacular hybrid. Let's stick with Jubutyagrus which has a nice ring to it and is more descriptive. I'm from Georgia and I'm familiar with mules, an animal that I suspect most people have never even seen. They are a big, ugly animal with floppy ears and there is nothing elegant about them at all.  They are butt ugly.

I have never liked the term "Mule palm," for Butia X Syagrus......because there is just nothing pretty about a mule except they are strong, trainable, and do hard work. There is a term in the South, "As stubborn as a Mule."  How could they be otherwise when the father is known as a Jackass?

Also, let's not confuse Jubutyagrus with Jubaea X Syagrus or Syagrus X Jubaea.  I have yet to see a picture of the latter two.

Dick

Draft Mule is so much easier to pronounce then these botanical sniglets. How a about Judy the booty queen.

[merrill]

Hi, Mark:

Many Thanks! I received your seed a day or so ago. Haven't decided how to open them yet. What is your suggestion? Thanks again,

merrill

[Mark Heath]

Hi, Mark:

Many Thanks! I received your seed a day or so ago. Haven't decided how to open them yet. What is your suggestion? Thanks again,

merrill

Merrill,

I am a novice when it comes to cracking open seeds. I think Matt from Temecula has some knowledge in this field

of work. I use a hammer tapping lightly and i get good enough results to check for an embryo but not to save the entire insides.

I am curious to know whether or not the seed has an embryo, it has all the other components. I plan on using this XButyagrus as a parent palm for the BXQXQ.

Mark

[freakypalmguy]

Hi, Mark:

Many Thanks! I received your seed a day or so ago. Haven't decided how to open them yet. What is your suggestion? Thanks again,

merrill

Merrill,

I am a novice when it comes to cracking open seeds. I think Matt from Temecula has some knowledge in this field

of work. I use a hammer tapping lightly and i get good enough results to check for an embryo but not to save the entire insides.

I am curious to know whether or not the seed has an embryo, it has all the other components. I plan on using this XButyagrus as a parent palm for the BXQXQ.

Mark

Hi Mark and Merrill,

I use a bench vise, inserting the seed with the opposing ends touching either side of the vises jaws. Then very slowly crank down a small amount at a time, pausing occasionally. The seed sometimes will rupture as you are clamping it down or during the pause. This method still damages some of the embryos but I have a fairly good success rate with it. I wrap the seed in a thin rag or paper towel to capture the shell as it breaks open or the pieces can fly a good distance, safety glasses might be prudent.

I hope this helps,

Matt

[TimHopper]

I use the bench vice method too, and second the advice for safety glasses. I usually check seeds from hybrid projects before planting them for germination. Directly in line with the eye of each seed chamber is where the embryo can be found. If you slice longways through that area with a razor blade it should reveal a cavity less than a millimeter in diameter mostly filled with a radical. I have seen a lot of weird seeds from XButyagrus. Some have just been solid wood, others with just one eye, or no cavities for the radical inside the eye, but most will have an empty cavity where the radical should be. I once found an exceptional XButyagrus here in Florida with perfectly normal looking seeds with embryo intact in every seed that I cut open. I was excited to find them and felt sure that they would germinate. I planted them three years running without a single sprout. The owners of the property moved and the new owners were not very interested in my efforts. I asked if they would allow me to attempt to back cross thier XButyagrus with Queen pollen, and I think that they seriously thought about calling the police. Oh well, I guess if you have to explain, they wouldn't understand. Tim

[TimHopper]

Quoting: TimHopper

Rank: SEEDLING

Group:

Forum Members Posts:

232 Joined:

20-June 06 Location:St Augustine Florida Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:13 AM

It is amazing to me that there is so many variable traits among XButyagrus siblings. Having grown so many of them I can attest that they may be similar as small trees, but each individual's traits are augmented with age. I have XButyagrus six years old from the same brood that are all different sizes and shapes that look very different from one another. I have tried back-crossing several of them with queen pollen, but have had no luck yet. I have some others that have not yet produced spathes. The BxQxQ is on my list. I sure hope to accomplish it some day. The right combination must be out there somewhere. Tim

Tim Hopper

Anastasia Island

St Augustine Florida

TimHoppers@aol.com :cool:

Hi, Tim:

My experience has been like yours, or perhaps even more variable! Of course, my hybrids were an extreme mixture. If I were to start over on my row of XButyagrus, I'd choose hybrids w/ the same parents - as a matter of fact, think I'll do it at Forest Grove, if I still have some siblings. I've had extreme attacks from rodents.

More to the point, Frank and Elaine Lewis for the most part have a single female parent, and a single male parent. Their Butyagrus are the most uniform I've seen. They are in St. Augustine, [more specifically Moultrie, FL] 3075 Old Moultrie Road 32086, Tele 904 794 1363.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill, You may remember that Frank and Elaine (of Moultrie Palms), began together making XButyagrus hybrids several years ago. We went through a learning process that helped us get maximum seed set and germination. As a career builder, I was unable to continue to dedicate time to thier nursery and moved on to smaller scale hybridizing. I think that they still have a number of very nice XButyagrus. My oldest XButyagrus are from some of our earliest successfull hybridizing. Frank and Elaine are good people, and we had a lot of fun learning together and developing new techniques. My latest focus has been on adding the Jubaea in the mix. I'm sure that it will give extra degrees of cold hardiness, and hopefully a distinguished look like the XJubutyagrus that you have growing on your property. Tim

[TimHopper]

Quoting: TimHopper

Rank: SEEDLING

Group:

Forum Members Posts:

232 Joined:

20-June 06 Location:St Augustine Florida Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:13 AM

It is amazing to me that there is so many variable traits among XButyagrus siblings. Having grown so many of them I can attest that they may be similar as small trees, but each individual's traits are augmented with age. I have XButyagrus six years old from the same brood that are all different sizes and shapes that look very different from one another. I have tried back-crossing several of them with queen pollen, but have had no luck yet. I have some others that have not yet produced spathes. The BxQxQ is on my list. I sure hope to accomplish it some day. The right combination must be out there somewhere. Tim

Tim Hopper

Anastasia Island

St Augustine Florida

TimHoppers@aol.com :cool:

Hi, Tim:

My experience has been like yours, or perhaps even more variable! Of course, my hybrids were an extreme mixture. If I were to start over on my row of XButyagrus, I'd choose hybrids w/ the same parents - as a matter of fact, think I'll do it at Forest Grove, if I still have some siblings. I've had extreme attacks from rodents.

More to the point, Frank and Elaine Lewis for the most part have a single female parent, and a single male parent. Their Butyagrus are the most uniform I've seen. They are in St. Augustine, [more specifically Moultrie, FL] 3075 Old Moultrie Road 32086, Tele 904 794 1363.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill, You may remember that Frank and Elaine (of Moultrie Palms), began together making XButyagrus hybrids several years ago. We went through a learning process that helped us get maximum seed set and germination. As a career builder, I was unable to continue to dedicate time to thier nursery and moved on to smaller scale hybridizing. I think that they still have a number of very nice XButyagrus. My oldest XButyagrus are from some of our earliest successfull hybridizing. Frank and Elaine are good people, and we had a lot of fun learning together and developing new techniques. My latest focus has been on adding the Jubaea in the mix. I'm sure that it will give extra degrees of cold hardiness, and hopefully a distinguished look like the XJubutyagrus that you have growing on your property. Tim

[merrill]

In response to interest expressed by several of you, posts 42 and 45 in this history of posting show what I believe to a reverse XButyagrus. There used to be another near Umatilla, FL, which I'll try to find. All look like a reverse XButyagrus to me! For anyone who doesn't turn the pages to see them, they are quite old and tall!

Best Wishes,

merrill

[TimHopper]

In response to interest expressed by several of you, posts 42 and 45 in this history of posting show what I believe to a reverse XButyagrus. There used to be another near Umatilla, FL, which I'll try to find. All look like a reverse XButyagrus to me! For anyone who doesn't turn the pages to see them, they are quite old and tall!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Quick link to the photos that Merrill mentioned http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4789&hl=xjubutyagrus&st=40

Merrill, that is an unusual looking cross. When you say reverse cross, do you mean (Syagrus x Butia)? The trunk and leaf base pattern looks like it has been a fast grower. I had almost forgotten about those photos since they were posted in this thread four years ago. Tim

[merrill]

Hi, Tim:

Yes, by reverse Butyagrus I mean Syagrus X Butia. Have located the photo of the putative Syagrus X Butia at Umatilla. All of these putative reverse mules have slimmer straighter trunks and larger tops. I'd be grateful if you could post it; apologise for my incompetence! Perhaps I can send it to you and you can post it?

Many Thanks,

merrill

Edited May 31, 2010 by merrill

[TimHopper]

Hi, Tim:

Yes, by reverse Butyagrus I mean Syagrus X Butia. Have located the photo of the putative Syagrus X Butia at Umatilla. All of these putative reverse mules have slimmer straighter trunks and larger tops. I'd be grateful if you could post it; apologise for my incompetence! Perhaps I can send it to you and you can post it?

Many Thanks,

merrill

Sure, I would be glad to post it. My email address is timhoppers@aol.com

[TimHopper]

Hi, Tim:

Yes, by reverse Butyagrus I mean Syagrus X Butia. Have located the photo of the putative Syagrus X Butia at Umatilla. All of these putative reverse mules have slimmer straighter trunks and larger tops. I'd be grateful if you could post it; apologise for my incompetence! Perhaps I can send it to you and you can post it?

Many Thanks,

merrill

Sure, I would be glad to post it. My email address is timhoppers@aol.com

Edited May 31, 2010 by TimHopper

[ricky]

that is a beautiful palm Merrill it looks a lot more refined than the normal xbutyagrus I'm just wondering why the syagrus x butia is not more common as in my view it looks far superior to xbutyagrus is it harder to cross syagrus than butia

regards ricky

[PalmGuyWC]

Tim, Merrill,

Thanks for posting the pic of the Syagrus X Butia. It sure is a beautiful palm and LARGE too. I wonder if it's as cold hardy as a regular mule?

Ricky, you don't see many Syagrus X Butias because the flowers are usually high up on the tree and hard to reach. There are also many more male flowers to remove. Syagrus seem to be very receptive to hybridizing. In recent years Patrick Schafer has crossed Syagrus with Jubaea and Parajubaea and other cocoid species. They are all to small to determine what their adult characteristics will show.

Dick