How Far Can you Go..

[Kris]

Now in another pit we placed Bismarkia silver form..

[Kris]

A clearer still of the same palm..

[swolf]

My yard will require a similar undertaking as Kris followed.  The first four feet is heavy, poorly draining clay, but several feet of fast-draining sand begins about four feet down.  

My question is what to replace the clay with?  I have a 'blank canvas' for what soil my palms will be planted in.  Without delving into mad scientist territory, can I put together an ideal garden soil using some of the common 'potting' soil recommendations (such as Jungle Growth or Miracle Grow Palm & Cactus combined with coarse sand) or would another approach make sense for the larger application?  I'm also not sure what I'll do with all the clay I don't want (any companies haul soil away?).

I'm planning on growing deep rooted cold-hardy palms -- butia, jubaea hybrids, will try parajubaea 'sunkha'.  Also queen, trachycarpus, C. Humilis 'Cerifera'  The few I already own are in pots.   Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Steve

St. Augustine, FL

[Kris]

Dear Steve  

i must tell you that seeing some of my huge dug pits few have even critised as its bit exgagerated....(meaning totally unnecessary)..but i recently took chance with my washy filifera..planting in a pit which was dug deep but the same clayee soil was utilised along with a course sandy soil...the result was catastrofic..that palm that was placed in this pit is on the verge of dying due to root & spear rot due to unexpected excess rains this year.since it has not breathed its last yet i have not posted that stills...

my suggestion is if you have clay on the top layer its better you remove it,to reuse that soil along with perilite or course sandy soil depends on your frequency of your rainfall !

too sandy soil is good only for coconuts & palmera's,other than these i cannot rememeber any more palms or plants that love only sandy soil_so think about it.but i have no regreats in throwing out much of the clay out of our house gardens...

thanks for visitng & writing your thoughts..

lots of love,

Kris  

[swolf]

Thanks Kris for the follow-up tip (risk) on re-using the original clay (Washy Filifera rot example).  I now plan to fully discard the original clay.

Still hoping to hear others chime in with answers to the question: What is... the ideal fast-draining garden soil -- for a "wet" locale like Florida.  Right now I'm thinking about 50% coarse sand blended with a rich garden soil.  Unless I'm able to locate a better way (dirt farmer delivery?) I'll probably just accumulate a bunch of Home Depot Miracle Grow Garden Soil (Tree variety) for the blend.  Thoughts?

Steve

St. Augustine, FL

[Dave-Vero]

Steve, I'm puzzled at your clay layer.  It's kind of unusual for east Florida.  I think Kris's troublesome clay is probably somewhat more like what you'd see in the Piedmont of Georgia (think Atlanta).  

My guess, without taking a look at your topography, etc., is that you might possibly have organic soil (muck) rather than clay.  It would not be terribly expensive to buy a truckload of sand and mix it with whatever you have.  Maybe a deep-spading party on a cool, dry winter Saturday?

[swolf]

Hi Dave,

I agree that it's not THAT kind of clay.  My small property is on a ridge (by Florida near-coastal standards), with an elevation between 40-45 ft.  The small property was "developed", so maybe that top 3 feet was brought in as fill dirt -- it's hard to know.  I did the glass jar shake test, and a fair amount of some kind of sand (maybe finer sand?) IS present in the top soil layer, but that doesn't stop it from being a total failure in aeration and drainage.  It's a gray deathbed to whatever gets planted in it.

You may (probably) are right about the ability to bring in enough sand to improve what I have, but I'm worried about risking it.  I think I'm shooting for what would be called 'sandy-loam' based on the (fast-draining) requirements of the palms I'm preparing for.  I'm willing to do the extra work (and/or pay for it) if it means eliminating the guesswork for the palms I'm planting.

Any thoughts of the long-term value of using an off-the-shelf product like Miracle Grow Garden Soil Tree mix?  They say it contains "rich organic materials", S. peat moss, and manure.  The other 50% would be coarse, washed sand.  Is there a better way or important ingredient I'm missing?  

Steve

[DoomsDave]

KRIS!

You are insane!

Like me . . . .

I only dig down about 2-3 feet, but I dig out larger areas, and toss in tons of degradable trash, including dead animals.  For a while, the mound stands, then, as it recedes as the stuff decays, I plant.

I've buried tons of rose bush clippings, tree branches, palm fronds and trunks, ashes, grass clippings, a dead pitbull dog, dead cats, birds and a rat or two, plus "freezer-burnt" meat and kitchen waste.

The palm fronds rot a lot faster than I thought they would.  In a couple of months, you can't even tell they're there anymore if you probe for them.

dave

[Dave-Vero]

Steve,

The gray color is a clue.  Probably stuff dug up from a wetland where permanent flooding led to anaerobic conditions.  

IFAS might have some ideas--the University of Florida's Institute for Food and Agricultural Sciences has web-based advice for nearly anything.  Being in Florida, sand should be easy to obtain and effective.  If you want organic material, Dave's advice about stuff like oak leaves (abundant right now), grass clippings, and such is good.  You might be able to obtain mulch at the local landfill.  Vermiculite, perlite, and such are rather expensive but can help.   Even oak leaves decompose surprisingly fast in our climate.

My house is on pretty good ground, so I can only sympathize with those whose houses are built on what amounts to miscellaneous fill dirt.  

Good luck with the upcoming cold snap.

[swolf]

Thanks Dave.  Yes, the gray is an ominous clue.  It must go.  I wasn't 'bitten by the palm bug' until after we bought the house -- so I inherited a mixed bag from that perspective.  Despite the clay hassle, one upside (from the modest land elevation) is that the seasonal high water table is about 12 ft. down.  That will allow me to grow some deeper rooted palms that wouldn't work, or would require a large berm elsewhere.  

Steve

[DoomsDave]

(swolf @ Dec. 29 2007,19:49)

QUOTE

Thanks Kris for the follow-up tip (risk) on re-using the original clay (Washy Filifera rot example).  I now plan to fully discard the original clay.

Still hoping to hear others chime in with answers to the question: What is... the ideal fast-draining garden soil -- for a "wet" locale like Florida.  Right now I'm thinking about 50% coarse sand blended with a rich garden soil.  Unless I'm able to locate a better way (dirt farmer delivery?) I'll probably just accumulate a bunch of Home Depot Miracle Grow Garden Soil (Tree variety) for the blend.  Thoughts?

Steve

St. Augustine, FL

If you have really heavy clay, as I do in places, you can break it up, though it's  LOTS of work.

Start by accumulating as many piles of dead stuff as you have room for.  Keep it wet so it rots, and when it does, dig it into the ground.

Keep adding, all the time.

Clay can be very fertile once it's broken up a bit.

If you can lay hands on discarded drywall, use that instead of bags of gypsum, which is expensive.  The paper rots, and the gypsum breaks up the clay, too.

Keep adding and adding stuff until you sell the place, or pass on . . . .

dave

[Carlo Morici]

All very interesting.

I think the best thing is to dig wells and fill them with stones or very large sand, and keep them as infiltration wells, independent of the planting holes. Palms and trees should then be planted in the ammended surrounding soil and the whole plot will drain excess water into the wells.

Check this: infiltration devices:

http://www.ciria.org/suds/infiltration_devices.htm

Carlo

[Kris]

???

[sonoranfans]

(swolf @ Dec. 30 2007,17:52)

QUOTE

Thanks Dave.  Yes, the gray is an ominous clue.  It must go.  I wasn't 'bitten by the palm bug' until after we bought the house -- so I inherited a mixed bag from that perspective.  Despite the clay hassle, one upside (from the modest land elevation) is that the seasonal high water table is about 12 ft. down.  That will allow me to grow some deeper rooted palms that wouldn't work, or would require a large berm elsewhere.  

Steve

steve, I have done alot of soil ammendment in 100% trucked in construction clay(50+ palms).  I use alot of sand, but I have been using pearlite lately as well(3 cu ft bags at home depot).  The problem with the biodegradable(compost) part of the soil is that it will eventually be comsumed, degrade to nothing, leaving sand and clay.  What this means is that the soil compaction that mulch prevents will someday not be the same.  Dont get me wrong, I use plenty of compost matl, I just dont depend on it to prevent soil compaction long term.  What I like about pearlite is that it prevents the soil from being compacted(sand doesnt) and its much lighter than sand or clay or water, so water penetrates more readily.  Pearlite will never degrade away, it'll be there forever.  Good luck, good digging, and when in doubt overdue it(the hole) because you cant change it much after its done.  Also, you should get a soil pH measurement so you know what your palms will be planted in(you can adjust pH).

[Alicehunter2000]

Wow, what you guys go through to plant a palm. Makes me feel a little better about being in cold zone 9a.....at least I don't have to dig huge pits or drainage wells or pile up berms. I'll never complain about my slightly acidic North Florida sand again.

[DoomsDave]

(Dypsisdean @ Apr. 18 2007,17:08)

QUOTE

I think you guys may have missed the part where Kris says:

"and i found hard clay to up to 8 to 9 feet in our property

and below this we get fine river sand kind of layer.."

Kris,

I was thinking of starting a poll one time of who is the most dedicated (crazy) palm grower in the Forum. You would have definitely been in the running.  

Ah, yes!

I'd do the same thing.

I dug down ten feet once, still clay.

Sigh.

[Kris]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Mar. 18 2008,23:26)

QUOTE

I'd do the same thing.

I dug down ten feet once, still clay.

Sigh.

Dear Dave  

iam very sorry to hear that you have clay even past the 10 feet mark below...

But i did execute this work with the help of a construction engineer who builds house in our area say 2 to 3 kms radius happens to be his truff.so he told me that i must find the much needed porous starata of soil say around 7 to 8 feet below the clay layer...yes i did find it at 8,8 and half and in one spot it went way down to 9 feet !!!  

And i must say what works for one will never work for the other,as the saying goes that one man's food is other man's poision...

Here is a small evidence of it,that one should always follow ones inner voice or gut feeling and not listen to all what comes-thy way..whenever i spoke about soil ammendement for the Washies,i was told that its a bullet-proof palm that grows like weeds in hotter regions of U.S.And one need not pay much attention to its soil requirement.i heard this,folks here tell this repeatedly over & over again.

so i cleanly by passed what my intution said that all the imported palms not native to my land should have their soil bed fully ammended for a soft porous kind of soil.

One fine morning i took that well grown 2 years old washy filifera & planted it on the clay soil bed and in just 15 days mansoon rains started and the rains did not stop for a week and that whole month we saw plently of rains.and the following month i could see signs of damage...!!!  

Here is the link for the thread of the fine looking washy planting stills...Link _ 1

Here is the link for the stills of that washy damaged by stagnating rain waters...Link _ 2

Kris

[Kris]

Here is the latest update on my washy filifera...and thanks to those who wrongly stated that this is a bullet proof fan palm and once established it grows like weed.this many be not so here in south india.here the climate is wet & humid with coastal influence.the winters are wet & sultry...

here is this still,the bricks placed in the foot of the palm was to ward of my dogs from digging this palm.since once it conked-off my pets took special interest in this dead palm.so i had to place these bricks.so that i can take a still of it in one peice..just to show that what works in one area will often not work in a nother area.  

[Kris]

[Pivi]

[mari]

Here is the latest update on my washy filifera...and thanks to those who wrongly stated that this is a bullet proof fan palm and once established it grows like weed.this many be not so here in south india.here the climate is wet & humid with coastal influence.the winters are wet & sultry...

here is this still,the bricks placed in the foot of the palm was to ward of my dogs from digging this palm.since once it conked-off my pets took special interest in this dead palm.so i had to place these bricks.so that i can take a still of it in one peice..just to show that what works in one area will often not work in a nother area.  

What temperatures did it experience in there? I have two Washy filiferas and two washy robustas tht expereinced a low of 16F in Atlanta zone 8. My filifera suffered mimimal burn and my washys partially defoliated. They are now growing strong and have produced many fronds. Perhaps you admended the soil too much. I partially amended the my clay soil with sand, top soil and manuer compost. My washys have been in the ground from almost 3 years and have experienced two winters and are growing strong.

[TikiRick]

Oh my Gawd! I am sorry, but I had to laugh at the end result. All THAT for a Washingtonia? One man's trash is another's treasure!

[Kris]

Dear Mari & Dear Rick

the washy that died,was placed in the clayee soil region & not in the soil ammended pits...! i suppose you both have not gone through the entire episode,so you have mistaken that inspite of soil ammendement the washy filifera has rotted_that is not the case gentlemen.

the above washy was tested on non-ammended soil area of our garden...

And mari our winter temperature are 78 to 82 degree farenheat and it does not fall any lower than that.here the temperature is hot though out the year...but the land is flat and clayee so the rain water stagnates for nearly a week in our winters(which happens to be our rainy season)..what iam saying is that we have here wet winters.

And Rick you are right what is not that important to people living in one continent,is very valuable to guys living in the other places.i.e grass is greener always the other side !

thanks & love,

Kris

[DoomsDave]

Kris has the right idea.

Pierce the clay to something that will drain and the problem will be solved -- unles there's more clay lower down, which sometimes happens.

He's the only person I've run across who has helpers willing and able to help him do that. (Don't ask ME to dig eight feet down . . . . .)

What I wouldn't do is remove the old clay. I'd just amend the heck out of it with all kinds of organic stuff and gypsum to break it up, including plenty of dead palm leaves, which I'm sure Kris has plenty of by now . . . .

[DoomsDave]

Here is the latest update on my washy filifera...and thanks to those who wrongly stated that this is a bullet proof fan palm and once established it grows like weed.this many be not so here in south india.here the climate is wet & humid with coastal influence.the winters are wet & sultry...

here is this still,the bricks placed in the foot of the palm was to ward of my dogs from digging this palm.since once it conked-off my pets took special interest in this dead palm.so i had to place these bricks.so that i can take a still of it in one peice..just to show that what works in one area will often not work in a nother area.  

Ouch, sorry to see, and I've learned something.

When I say they're bulletproof, they're bulletproof here in Southern California.

They obviously don't like your high humidity, which also squares with observations of those from Florida and even our own beloved Beach Cities, oh, like totally gnarly . . .

[Kris]

Thanks dear dave for understanding the 'whole' issue...

lots of love to u,

Kris

[PricklyPearSATX]

KRIS!

You are insane!

Like me . . . .

I only dig down about 2-3 feet, but I dig out larger areas, and toss in tons of degradable trash, including dead animals.  For a while, the mound stands, then, as it recedes as the stuff decays, I plant.

I've buried tons of rose bush clippings, tree branches, palm fronds and trunks, ashes, grass clippings, a dead pitbull dog, dead cats, birds and a rat or two, plus "freezer-burnt" meat and kitchen waste.

The palm fronds rot a lot faster than I thought they would.  In a couple of months, you can't even tell they're there anymore if you probe for them.

dave

[PricklyPearSATX]

KRIS!

You are insane!

Like me . . . .

I only dig down about 2-3 feet, but I dig out larger areas, and toss in tons of degradable trash, including dead animals.  For a while, the mound stands, then, as it recedes as the stuff decays, I plant.

I've buried tons of rose bush clippings, tree branches, palm fronds and trunks, ashes, grass clippings, a dead pitbull dog, dead cats, birds and a rat or two, plus "freezer-burnt" meat and kitchen waste.

The palm fronds rot a lot faster than I thought they would.  In a couple of months, you can't even tell they're there anymore if you probe for them.

dave

Sorry about my first post. Hit reply before I wrote.

Dave:

Oh My!! LOL..I've heard of making compost with "animal parts".

You probably have the best soil in your neighborhood. Have you seen the network "Planet Green"?

They could probably feature your yard. LOL

In San Antonio, composting animals is sometimes done "out in the country". In the city, our soil would stagnate.

Although we are semi-arid, it's actually a "humid semi-arid" due to having temps in the 90's for about 5 months out of the year with nightly lows above 70 for 3-4 months. We rarely get enough rain, but we've got the humidity in the air.

I have clay gumbo fill over caliche. However, I do what you do on a smaller scale level. I get my "greens" from plant clippings, alfalfa pellets. I use tons of composted leaves. I don't bury though. Just put on the top. Let it simmer a few weeks. (It often stinks of anerobic during this time, but the smell goes away)

Digging depends on my mood and location. Next to my foundation, I dig 3 feet down and get rid of as much caliche as possible. I replace the caliche with combination composted humus, greensand(potassium gluconate) and sometimes other goodies, mixed with some of the gumbo clay.

I used to have a whole bunch of prickly pear cactus, and I would often crush up a few pads. Use it as an amendment. I figure it makes the soil hold more water.

Some places I dig only a foot down. Many times I'm lazy and just dig a single hole for a plant.

My compost layer surrounds my plants and acts as a mulch. Roots grow into it more vigorously than clay.

Edited August 8, 2008 by PricklyPearSATX

[PricklyPearSATX]

Dear Mari & Dear Rick

the washy that died,was placed in the clayee soil region & not in the soil ammended pits...! i suppose you both have not gone through the entire episode,so you have mistaken that inspite of soil ammendement the washy filifera has rotted_that is not the case gentlemen.

the above washy was tested on non-ammended soil area of our garden...

And mari our winter temperature are 78 to 82 degree farenheat and it does not fall any lower than that.here the temperature is hot though out the year...but the land is flat and clayee so the rain water stagnates for nearly a week in our winters(which happens to be our rainy season)..what iam saying is that we have here wet winters.

And Rick you are right what is not that important to people living in one continent,is very valuable to guys living in the other places.i.e grass is greener always the other side !

thanks & love,

Kris

Kris:

You are doing the right thing. There is nowhere in the United States where we have your climate. I assume that this practice is fairly common in certain parts of the world. Also, this type of amendment is excellent for palms, as their roots grow downward and will stay in the amended soil.

Also, your ecosystem is totally different than here. You're in a true tropical climate where plant roots perform differently than anywhere in the United States.

I assume plants such as banyon trees flourish because they survive with excessive root competition.

What is your annual rainfall and summer temps?

[Kris]

Dear Linda

Thanks for understanding my situation which led me to dig up our garden soil...

And here is a lovely article written by Phil on How To Plant A Palm Tree. And i insist all our memebrs do take a look at this very useful article..

Thanks & Love,

Kris

[Kris]

Now After one or two years some of our Palms that were grown in our roof top gardens were gently brought down to the main garden area..which is still wet and shady at the moment.i have planned to cut down some branches of the dicots.so that all the palms that you are gona see here do not share the same fate of the washy filifera that was planted in the ground a year ago !

Now lets move on with the visuals...since most have asked me what palms are going to be planted in those clay ammended soil region.

Here is the still of Corypha lecomtei which was grown from the seeds sent to me by Komikrit _ (Kom Thai Palm).And the place where it is placed now,is the area where i want it to be planted !

Dear Komi Thanks very much my friend !

...

[Kris]

Here is the visual of the talipot palms bought from the chennai horticultural society as a very small sapling ! in just 2 years its touching the roof celing of our house.. even this palm was in our roof top gardens,now brought down,but the planting area is still not decided for now !

...

[Kris]

Here is a MED Fan Palm which was bought as a normal sized palm from the local nursery,which was later shifted to this blue industrial barrel,after that it has grown substantially in last 2 years..this one was also grown in the roof top ! And i have planned to plant it in the location where its at the moment..

...

[Kris]

Here is the travellors palms bought as a normal sized sapling,but where to place it in the ground...i have not decided yet ?

...

[Kris]

Here is a still of bizie lady,i have not decide where to plant it...since i have planted a bismarkia already,i have second thoughts on planting it again in the ground..

...

[Kris]

Here is a still of the Sabal River Side Palm(SRS),planning to plant it in the same spot where the washy filifera rotted..

And by the way it has stopped growing in that barrel,its clear it wants to be free in ground.

[Kris]

This one is Blue hasper palm,this one was purschased as a small sapling from the local nursery..but has grow phenomally in roof top ! this will be planted in those huge ammended pits that you have seen before..just waiting for the summer season to arrive

..

[FRITO]

Kris,

Your palms have grown very good for you and I can see youi have given them great care. Nice job!

regarding planning the garden and where to plant. take into consideration how big everything gets onces it matures... Your palms will quickly be to big to move them if planted in the wrong spot. decide your best views from the house and the patios. go by the road and see how things would look from the road.

Give the Bizzie as Much sun as you can, they get really nice and silver that way. Mine kinda turn greenish when we have cloudy rainy days in summer with high humidity, and it is shaded out by a huge maple tree. (90F/70F day night temps)

I also grounded my C. humilis - med fan palm this year from a large container and it has grown great and I have not even watered it once as it likes it dry and my climate has more rain and humidity than its natural habitat. I too dug a large hole and amended the soil for this dry loving palm.

I look forward to you planting these !

lots of love,

Luke

[phatmiata]

Kris,

I wanna see pics of your rooftop garden!! hehehe sounds like you have a jungle up there!!!

[Kris]

Dear Luke

Thanks for visiting & keying you valuable suggestions..

Dear Randy

Thanks for your comments,and my terrace top or roof top gardens is seen in another thread..if you have time kindly search my old threads to find it.

Lots of love,

Kris