Central FL Palm Folks, When To Plant 10A Palms?

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I was wondering when you Central Florida Zone 10A folks start planting your 10A palms?  How early in the year do you start planting them?  And how late in the year do you plant them?

Thanks,

John

[Zeeth]

I plant the cold sensitive stuff mid-March. The heat sensitive stuff gets planted mid-November. The cold tolerant stuff goes in the ground whenever. 

[Eric in Orlando]

I agree, hold off to mid March.

[Ed in Houston]

Ed in Houston is obviously not in central Florida but I planted a 10a palm in early November in my 9b climate, hoping to get some root growth during the late fall, winter or early spring. The palms spear has grown about 6 inches thus far. Gambling is not for those who can't afford to lose.

 

Ed in Houston

 

[Zeeth]

27 minutes ago, Ed in Houston said:

Ed in Houston is obviously not in central Florida but I planted a 10a palm in early November in my 9b climate, hoping to get some root growth during the late fall, winter or early spring. The palms spear has grown about 6 inches thus far. Gambling is not for those who can't afford to lose.

Ed in Houston

I planted coconuts mid-January last year and they're doing fine now. I burned my Jamaican tall very badly with christmas lights when I tried protecting it when we saw 33˚ in February, but it's since grown out of the damage. I'm usually more conservative with planting schedules, but I had time constraints and they needed to be put in the ground. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Okay.  Thanks for the info.  I was just thinking if this mild winter holds out, I might go ahead and plant my coconut palms, Christmas palms, Carpentarias, and Coccothrinax in early to mid Feb., so they would have a good 10 months to get established before next Dec.  My current soil temps are running about 58F to 58.5F and should be at 60F in a couple of weeks.

[Zeeth]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Okay.  Thanks for the info.  I was just thinking if this mild winter holds out, I might go ahead and plant my coconut palms, Christmas palms, Carpentarias, and Coccothrinax in early to mid Feb., so they would have a good 10 months to get established before next Dec.  My current soil temps are running about 58F to 58.5F and should be at 60F in a couple of weeks.

The growth of coconut palms during the cold months is so minuscule compared to summer growth that you're not getting much of an advantage for next winter by planting early. Between winter solstice and spring equinox, I get about as much growth in my coconuts as I get in 3 weeks of Summer temperatures.

My recipe for success with coconuts is growing them in pots for 1-2 years, taking them indoors when temperatures are forecast to get below 50 F, then planting them mid-March and watering profusely. By the time winter comes, they're usually completely pinnate with 6+ foot long leaves, and can handle the cold temperatures much better than a seedling. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, Zeeth said:

The growth of coconut palms during the cold months is so minuscule compared to summer growth that you're not getting much of an advantage for next winter by planting early. Between winter solstice and spring equinox, I get about as much growth in my coconuts as I get in 3 weeks of Summer temperatures.

My recipe for success with coconuts is growing them in pots for 1-2 years, taking them indoors when temperatures are forecast to get below 50 F, then planting them mid-March and watering profusely. By the time winter comes, they're usually completely pinnate with 6+ foot long leaves, and can handle the cold temperatures much better than a seedling. 

Keith,

My approach is to leave them outside unless the temps are supposed to drop below 35F or 36F or unless there is some chilly damp weather forecast for an extended period.  I do this to try to harden them off to be able to survive the winters without much protection once they are in the ground.  I even like to expose them to chilly damp weather for about 4 or 5 days at a time, just not a week at a time when they are little and still in pots, since we experience that kind of weather here anywhere from about 2 to 5 times over the course of the winter.  Do you thin this would help to harden them up?  I figured that ones that have been exposed to these kind of conditions several times while they are still young and in pots would have a better chance of making it once they are in the ground than ones that have been taken inside more.

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

4 hours ago, Zeeth said:

I planted coconuts mid-January last year and they're doing fine now. I burned my Jamaican tall very badly with christmas lights when I tried protecting it when we saw 33˚ in February, but it's since grown out of the damage. I'm usually more conservative with planting schedules, but I had time constraints and they needed to be put in the ground. 

I wouldn't think 33F would even phase a Jamaican Tall at all, not even a small one in a pot.  I have had Malayans exposed to temps like that without much problem.  I wouldn't think a Jamaican would be hurt at all until temps drop around 30F or 31F.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

17 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I was wondering when you Central Florida Zone 10A folks start planting your 10A palms?  How early in the year do you start planting them?  And how late in the year do you plant them?

Thanks,

John

John, Generally I plant them when I get them.  I lose more to drying out in pots than to cold.  But its easier to get them established here if you plant them at the beginning of the rainy season. Now for the palms that I don't think will survive the average winter...like Coconuts, Veitchia, etcetera, I plant them in March-June.  And I try to prepare myself by repeating>>>"these might be annuals, these might be annuals, these might be annuals" at least 3 times before I start digging.  

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

15 minutes ago, Keith in SoJax said:

John, Generally I plant them when I get them.  I lose more to drying out in pots than to cold.  But its easier to get them established here if you plant them at the beginning of the rainy season. Now for the palms that I don't think will survive the average winter...like Coconuts, Veitchia, etcetera, I plant them in March-June.  And I try to prepare myself by repeating>>>"these might be annuals, these might be annuals, these might be annuals" at least 3 times before I start digging.  

Keith,

That's funny.  I am hoping my coconut palms, Christmas and Carpentaria palms will not be annuals.  There is one mature coconut palm that I know of here in Corpus Christi in a perfect microclimate on the south side of a 2 story house that backs up to Corpus Christi Bay on the east end of Ocean Dr.  I was told that it survived the 2011 freeze (the only local one to do so), when temps here dropped in the mid to upper 20'sF and stayed below freezing for over 24 hours.  I was told it was defoliated by the freeze, but fortunately the homeowners did not cut it down, and a few months later, it started growing again.  It is now about 21 to 22 ft. tall in overall height with about 11 ft. of woody trunk, and occasionally has a few small coconuts on it until they cut them off for some reason.  There were 2 mature producing ones with nuts on them in my area, one here in Flour Bluff that was about 20 ft. tall, and one on the island that was about 25 ft. tall before the freeze.  I have decided to replace the Malayan Dwarfs I lost over the last 2 chilly and damp (but not freezing) winters with talls and hybrids.

John 

[Zeeth]

2 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Keith,

My approach is to leave them outside unless the temps are supposed to drop below 35F or 36F or unless there is some chilly damp weather forecast for an extended period.  I do this to try to harden them off to be able to survive the winters without much protection once they are in the ground.  I even like to expose them to chilly damp weather for about 4 or 5 days at a time, just not a week at a time when they are little and still in pots, since we experience that kind of weather here anywhere from about 2 to 5 times over the course of the winter.  Do you thin this would help to harden them up?  I figured that ones that have been exposed to these kind of conditions several times while they are still young and in pots would have a better chance of making it once they are in the ground than ones that have been taken inside more.

John

The Jamaican tall wasn't damaged by the temperatures, but the forecast called for me to get down to 30˚, so I was worried that it might get damaged since I had just planted it. In hindsight I would have been better off unprotected, but it's fine now so I'm not too miffed. 

 

There is a big difference between our methods, but I think a trial would be needed to see which one is better. It's feasible that there could be epigenetic changes to the palm if the embryo or young plant is exposed to cold temperatures. It's possible that the early exposure to cold would alter the way the palm produces the CBF (C-repeat binding factors) gene, but it's also more likely that the plants will die with the exposure to cold temperatures when young. I might give your method a try in the future to see what happens though.

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

I am in Central Florida zone 10 and I plant (most of the time) in early March because by then I have the itch.

[HarbourJungle]

I also plant most palms in the winter to try and get the roots established before summer. It seems to be a good recipe for success for me, but we haven't had a bad winter in a while. 

I also agree with Keith, I have lost most of my palms to neglect in pots than anything else. Good luck

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Thanks.  If this mild winter holds out, I am anxious to start planting the first part of Feb.  I normally would be planting in March or April, but with this mild winter, I would like to get a jump on it and give my palms, especially my coconut palms a good 10 months to get established before next Dec.  By Feb., we usually have consistent high temps in the mid 60'sF to low 70'sF and lows in 50'sF.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

6 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Keith,

That's funny.  I am hoping my coconut palms, Christmas and Carpentaria palms will not be annuals.  There is one mature coconut palm that I know of here in Corpus Christi in a perfect microclimate on the south side of a 2 story house that backs up to Corpus Christi Bay on the east end of Ocean Dr.  I was told that it survived the 2011 freeze (the only local one to do so), when temps here dropped in the mid to upper 20'sF and stayed below freezing for over 24 hours.  I was told it was defoliated by the freeze, but fortunately the homeowners did not cut it down, and a few months later, it started growing again.  It is now about 21 to 22 ft. tall in overall height with about 11 ft. of woody trunk, and occasionally has a few small coconuts on it until they cut them off for some reason.  There were 2 mature producing ones with nuts on them in my area, one here in Flour Bluff that was about 20 ft. tall, and one on the island that was about 25 ft. tall before the freeze.  I have decided to replace the Malayan Dwarfs I lost over the last 2 chilly and damp (but not freezing) winters with talls and hybrids.

John 

John, zone 10 palms are really pushing it here, especially those that are injured by a few hours of 30-31, or frost.  That's why I resort to hoping.  But coconuts do survive some/many winters here in central FL if they are close to a body of water.  My place just doesn't have that benefit.  I even must grudgingly acknowledge that zone 9b palms like Royals and Foxtails will be killed in 2-3 winters out of 10.  It's so easy for me to get lulled into believing something is hardy when temps haven't been below 75 in 120 days.  And man can one can waste a lot of mullah when the tropical stuff looks it's best at the end of our warm wet summer.  Self discipline easier to type than execute and that's why I plant all year long.  

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, Keith in SoJax said:

John, zone 10 palms are really pushing it here, especially those that are injured by a few hours of 30-31, or frost.  That's why I resort to hoping.  But coconuts do survive some/many winters here in central FL if they are close to a body of water.  My place just doesn't have that benefit.  I even must grudgingly acknowledge that zone 9b palms like Royals and Foxtails will be killed in 2-3 winters out of 10.  It's so easy for me to get lulled into believing something is hardy when temps haven't been below 75 in 120 days.  And man can one can waste a lot of mullah when the tropical stuff looks it's best at the end of our warm wet summer.  Self discipline easier to type than execute and that's why I plant all year long.  

Keith,

What are your average highs and lows in Dec. and Jan.?  And what is your all time record low where you live?  What is your annual average rainfall?  I am trying to compare our climates.  I live in a low end Zone 10A climate, but the last couple of winters, we have been either 10B or borderline 10B.

[Ed in Houston]

On 1/13/2016, 8:13:26, Ed in Houston said:

Ed in Houston is obviously not in central Florida but I planted a 10a palm in early November in my 9b climate, hoping to get some root growth during the late fall, winter or early spring. The palms spear has grown about 6 inches thus far. Gambling is not for those who can't afford to lose.

 

Ed in Houston

 

The 10a palm referenced above was a Pinanga coronata var. kuhlii. I purchased three one gallon plans last spring and re-potted these into two gallon containers. These palms are considered 10a with hardiness usually given as 30F. The plants were about two to three feet tall with several small suckers near the base.

These grew well over the summer and the roots completely filled the two gallon pots. I planted one into the ground in early November and was pleased to observe that by January the spear had grown another 6 inches. Then, this month, the main spear died on the in-ground plant and also on one of the two that remained potted on my patio. The six inch suckers near the base of the three plants did not have spear pull.

Here are the temperatures the plants endured during the winter.

                      Highest      Lowest      Avg. High        Avg. Low     

December:         83              40               70.6               52.2           

January:             78              34               63.8               44.2           

February:           81              36               71.4               49.7       

I was quite surprised to see that two of the three plants were damaged with spear pull with the above temperatures and from this experience would not consider this plant 10a. The spear pulled plants were treated with peroxide and it will be a while before it is known if they will recover. I don't believe that they will die completely as the six inch suckers appear fine thus far. Others may have a different experience with these palms but that is my observation.

Here is how a healthy plant should look.

Ed in Houston

 

 

 

 

 

 

[topwater]

P. coronata is the only Pinanga I thought would have a chance in Houston, bummer that the spear pulled after such a clement winter, it leaves me little hope for mine, which I haven't planted yet. You may unfortunately be right, could be they're more a 10b plant after all.   Did your plants have any canopy or protection at all?

 

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

On January 14, 2016 at 1:46:13 AM, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Keith,

What are your average highs and lows in Dec. and Jan.?  And what is your all time record low where you live?  What is your annual average rainfall?  I am trying to compare our climates.  I live in a low end Zone 10A climate, but the last couple of winters, we have been either 10B or borderline 10B.

Our average highs in Dec, Jan and February are around 72-74 with lows between 45 and 50.  But we're 90 miles from the Gulf and the Atlantic so we don't have the water to moderate the arctic air masses or to give us a cushion during radiational cooling events.  Still, Coconuts do occasionally survive long enough to get trunk if they are in a good site (which means...not my yard).  Royals are better suited, but still can take a beating on frosty mornings of which we've had approximately 5 this year, including last week!  It seems to me that if you are having 10A and 10B winters, you are better situated than we are here.  There are plenty of folks in central FL that have had 10b winters the last couple of years, but that is certainly not the case here.  We've been borderline 9b-10A even during these exceptionally mild winters.  If you travel directly east or west to the Atlantic or Gulf coast, you will find coconuts (shabby coconuts to be honest), very healthy royals, and a whole plethora of things like Ficus, Royal Poinciana, Archontophoenix, Ptychosperma, etc. that have zero chance here.  

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Hey Keith,

Thanks for the description of your climate.  What is your all time record low?  And where exactly is Winter Haven?

John

[Ed in Houston]

14 hours ago, topwater said:

P. coronata is the only Pinanga I thought would have a chance in Houston, bummer that the spear pulled after such a clement winter, it leaves me little hope for mine, which I haven't planted yet. You may unfortunately be right, could be they're more a 10b plant after all.   Did your plants have any canopy or protection at all?

 

The palms had very little exposure to the sky as the in-ground plant was under the canopy of a 25 ft. grapefruit tree and the two that remained in pots were up against the house. The temperature they experienced for the winter lows were probably a degree or two warmer than the lows I gave on my previous post.

One thing that should be noted is that I have the P. coronata variation "Kuhlii" also called the "blunt leaf form". The blunt leaf designation is derived from the end leaflets on the end of the fronds that are blunt instead of pointed as in the image below.

The standard form has pointed leaflets on the end of the fronds. From what scant information I have seen on the web, the standard form of  P. coronata is supposed to be a bit hardier than the blunt form so if that is the variety that you have it may well be more cold tolerant.

Ed in Houston