Most Northern Coconut in Florida

[nitsua0895]

How far north can Coconut palms be reliably grown in Florida? In the next couple of years I'm hoping to move down so I can start a tropical landscape. Butia and Trachycarpus are nice but they get old after a while and I'm getting tired of cold weather. And in the meantime I'm wanting to take a road trip soon to see some of the more exotic palms. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

I think there's a thread on this already. I believe the answer is coastal Brevard County on the east coast

[Brad Mondel]

Try not to get bored with what you already have, take good care of them and you won't be disappointed. After seeing thousands of palm species my favorite genus is still Butia. 

[nitsua0895]

54 minutes ago, Brad Mondel said:

Try not to get bored with what you already have, take good care of them and you won't be disappointed. After seeing thousands of palm species my favorite genus is still Butia. 

Yes there's no doubt that Butias are great looking palms and I'm glad I can at least grow them. I just hope to one day have the chance to grow a much more diverse collection of palms. Especially since during our most extreme winters it's possible that some Butias can die from the cold.

[Bill H2DB]

3 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I think there's a thread on this already. I believe the answer is coastal Brevard County on the east coast

Here is a recent thread on the subject .

 

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/24450-how-far-n-in-florida-can-coconut-palms-reliably-grow/&page=6 

 

     You can use the search box on the right top to get more .

[Zeeth]

The one in this topic survived 2010 and is pretty far north. Anyone know of any further north that survived 2010? It's at 29˚ north

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/47619-coconut-in-new-smyrna-beach-fla-wfruits/

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I used to live in South Florida, in Coral Springs about 15 years ago, and I have spent many years studying coconut palms and Florida's climate.  I would say that from Clearwater, and especially Clearwater Beach on the Gulf Coast southward you can reliably grow the Jamaican Talls to fruiting maturity, and the Dwarfs to fruiting maturity from St. Petersburg Beach southward.  I have read where Jamaican Talls have been successfully grown as far north as Tarpon Springs near the water on the Gulf side.  On the Atlantic side, I think you could successfully grow the Jamaican Talls to fruiting size from the South side of New Smyrna Beach southward, and the Dwarf from just north of Melbourne southward on the mainland and from Cape Canaveral southward on the islands.  There used to be a coconut palm (I think a Green Malayan Dwarf with woody trunk on it) grown as far north as St. Augustine near the water, but it never produced.  It was on a thread here years ago and was almost as famous as the Newport Beach, California coconut palm.

If you want an area where you can successfully grow coconut palms, both Talls and Malayan Dwarfs to fruiting maturity, but still be able to afford to live, consider the Rio Grande Valley from Harlingen to Brownsville to Port Isabel and South Padre Island (with Port Isabel and South Padre being the most expensive of course)  Homes and land are very reasonable in the Lower Valley, especially compared to Florida, and if you moved there, that is only about 2.5 hours south of me, and I could really help you get some good coconut palms established in your yard.

John 

[nitsua0895]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I used to live in South Florida, in Coral Springs about 15 years ago, and I have spent many years studying coconut palms and Florida's climate.  I would say that from Clearwater, and especially Clearwater Beach on the Gulf Coast southward you can reliably grow the Jamaican Talls to fruiting maturity, and the Dwarfs to fruiting maturity from St. Petersburg Beach southward.  I have read where Jamaican Talls have been successfully grown as far north as Tarpon Springs near the water on the Gulf side.  On the Atlantic side, I think you could successfully grow the Jamaican Talls to fruiting size from the South side of New Smyrna Beach southward, and the Dwarf from just north of Melbourne southward on the mainland and from Cape Canaveral southward on the islands.  There used to be a coconut palm (I think a Green Malayan Dwarf with woody trunk on it) grown as far north as St. Augustine near the water, but it never produced.  It was on a thread here years ago and was almost as famous as the Newport Beach, California coconut palm.

If you want an area where you can successfully grow coconut palms, both Talls and Malayan Dwarfs to fruiting maturity, but still be able to afford to live, consider the Rio Grande Valley from Harlingen to Brownsville to Port Isabel and South Padre Island (with Port Isabel and South Padre being the most expensive of course)  Homes and land are very reasonable in the Lower Valley, especially compared to Florida, and if you moved there, that is only about 2.5 hours south of me, and I could really help you get some good coconut palms established in your yard.

John 

Yeah I've always heard that places like Naples and Key West are extremely expensive. As far as Florida goes I was thinking a place farther toward the center and away from the coast would be a lot cheaper. But south Texas sounds just as nice, all that matters to me is that I'd have the ability to grow a lot of tropical plants. I'll have to look into the Brownsville area a lot more. In you experience what is the least cold hardy Coconut palm? 

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

7 minutes ago, nitsua0895 said:

Yeah I've always heard that places like Naples and Key West are extremely expensive. As far as Florida goes I was thinking a place farther toward the center and away from the coast would be a lot cheaper. But south Texas sounds just as nice, all that matters to me is that I'd have the ability to grow a lot of tropical plants. I'll have to look into the Brownsville area a lot more. In you experience what is the least cold hardy Coconut palm? 

 

Austin,

There are SO MANY GORGEOUS TROPICALS that can be grown around Brownsville, including big royal palms, royal poincianas, mangoes, all sorts of ficus, tropical vines like epipremnum,  huge Hong Kong orchid trees, etc., etc., etc.  I am dumbfounded why people haven't started a tropical botanical garden in Brownville, considering what all can be grown there.  They are solidly a Zone 10A climate that is actually borderline 10B many winters.

The least cold hardy coconut palm that I know of is the Fiji Dwarf.  I have heard that it is only hardy down to about 31F, whereas the Mexican Tall (from the Gulf Coast of Mexico) is hardy to about 26F when it is established and has some size to it, with the Jamaican Tall being hardy to about 27F, and the Malayan Dwarfs being hardy to about 28F or 29F.  The nice thing about the Mexican and Jamaican Talls too is that they can take prolonged chiller weather longer than the Malayans can, which is why they do so well in Central Florida and the Rio Grande Valley.  By the way, I haven't priced land and homes in the Valley recently, but I know that real estate there is a LOT more reasonable than even interior Central Florida.  Back in 2007, a real estate agent in Brownsville told me he just sold a 3 bedroom, 2 bath brick home on an acre of land for $40,000!  I wish I could have bought it!  That was a great price, but there is a lot of very reasonable land and homes there, and the pace of life is a lot calmer and slower that the Florida rat race.

John

[nitsua0895]

3 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Austin,

There are SO MANY GORGEOUS TROPICALS that can be grown around Brownsville, including big royal palms, royal poincianas, mangoes, all sorts of ficus, tropical vines like epipremnum,  huge Hong Kong orchid trees, etc., etc., etc.  I am dumbfounded why people haven't started a tropical botanical garden in Brownville, considering what all can be grown there.  They are solidly a Zone 10A climate that is actually borderline 10B many winters.

The least cold hardy coconut palm that I know of is the Fiji Dwarf.  I have heard that it is only hardy down to about 31F, whereas the Mexican Tall (from the Gulf Coast of Mexico) is hardy to about 26F when it is established and has some size to it, with the Jamaican Tall being hardy to about 27F, and the Malayan Dwarfs being hardy to about 28F or 29F.  The nice thing about the Mexican and Jamaican Talls too is that they can take prolonged chiller weather longer than the Malayans can, which is why they do so well in Central Florida and the Rio Grande Valley.  By the way, I haven't priced land and homes in the Valley recently, but I know that real estate there is a LOT more reasonable than even interior Central Florida.  Back in 2007, a real estate agent in Brownsville told me he just sold a 3 bedroom, 2 bath brick home on an acre of land for $40,000!  I wish I could have bought it!  That was a great price, but there is a lot of very reasonable land and homes there, and the pace of life is a lot calmer and slower that the Florida rat race.

John

Wow I just looked up some of those plants you mentioned and I think I might want a royal poinciana more than a royal palm. It kind of resembles a huge crepe myrtle. It would also be nice to grow my own tropical fruits.

And that's an amazing price for a 3 bedroom home in a place like Brownsville, it's tough to find a deal like that here in Montgomery. I'm also hoping to one day start a palm nursery so it would be a lot easier to do in a place with cheaper land. Do you get a lot of rain in southeast Texas on average? 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

6 hours ago, nitsua0895 said:

Wow I just looked up some of those plants you mentioned and I think I might want a royal poinciana more than a royal palm. It kind of resembles a huge crepe myrtle. It would also be nice to grow my own tropical fruits.

And that's an amazing price for a 3 bedroom home in a place like Brownsville, it's tough to find a deal like that here in Montgomery. I'm also hoping to one day start a palm nursery so it would be a lot easier to do in a place with cheaper land. Do you get a lot of rain in southeast Texas on average? 

Austin,

The price on that house was an exceptionally good price, but there are many that same size with an acre around them probably in the $70,000 to $90.000 range.  I think the Royal Poincianas and Royal Palms compliment each other, and in the Rio Grande Valley, you can easily grow both.  The average annual rainfall there is low though, with Brownsville only averaging around 26" to 27" per year, but this past year, they probably had about 45".  Where I live, we average 31.76" per year, but we too had about 45" last year, for our 3rd wettest year on record.

John

P.S.  Rural property outside the city limits is the most reasonable here in Texas, which would be a good choice for a nursery.  There is a really neat tropical plant and tropical fruit nursery outside of the little town of Bayview, about 15 miles northeast of Brownsville, called River's End Nursery, and they have all sorts of neat exotic tropical fruits and a few nice looking coconut palms growing in the ground at their nursery.

[Zeeth]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Austin,

The price on that house was an exceptionally good price, but there are many that same size with an acre around them probably in the $70,000 to $90.000 range.  I think the Royal Poincianas and Royal Palms compliment each other, and in the Rio Grande Valley, you can easily grow both.  The average annual rainfall there is low though, with Brownsville only averaging around 26" to 27" per year, but this past year, they probably had about 45".  Where I live, we average 31.76" per year, but we too had about 45" last year, for our 3rd wettest year on record.

John

P.S.  Rural property outside the city limits is the most reasonable here in Texas, which would be a good choice for a nursery.  There is a really neat tropical plant and tropical fruit nursery outside of the little town of Bayview, about 15 miles northeast of Brownsville, called River's End Nursery, and they have all sorts of neat exotic tropical fruits and a few nice looking coconut palms growing in the ground at their nursery.

Is there an underground aquifer in that area of Texas? My garden only gets about 40 or 50 inches of rain per year on average, but easy access to the Florida aquifer makes it easy to keep things wet in the dry season.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

6 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Is there an underground aquifer in that area of Texas? My garden only gets about 40 or 50 inches of rain per year on average, but easy access to the Florida aquifer makes it easy to keep things wet in the dry season.

Keith, not that I know of, but there are many irrigation canals coming off the Rio Grande, which is why it is more like the Rio Chiquito and only a little creek southeast of Brownsville in some areas.  Many people in that area do have wells though, so there must be some sort of aquifer there, but nothing like the ones in the Hill Country and Panhandle.

[PalmatierMeg]

The northern limits for coconuts do not include anywhere in the interior where zones can be 1/2 to 1 zone colder than on the coast. Arctic fronts can barrel south along the spine of the state where there are no very large water bodies to moderate them except right on Lake Okeechobee. Around here, the safest areas for coconuts are right near the Gulf - Pine Island, Matlacha, Sanibel, et. al. I live in central Cape Coral and grow coconuts but lost all of mine after the winter of 2009/10. I haven't had weather that cold since but I know another record winter is somewhere in my future. Much further east of Ft. Myers, i.e., Lehigh Acres, coconuts and Adonidias, etc. are pretty much a losing gamble long term. Texas beyond the Gulf faces a similar problem.

So keep location in mind if you plan to move here - the nearer the water the safer your garden will be. Parts of central FL are loaded with lakes that produce warmer microclimates if you know what you are looking for (I don't). Also, the urban areas offer more lifestyle choices, unless you fancy the rural existence. Orlando's winters may be a bit warmer than years ago because of the heat island effect. And you may be able to find work at Universal Studios, the Rat's House or one of the other attractions that suck up tourist $$$$. Unless you are independently wealthy, lifestyle means jobs. Best opportunities are in health care and hospitality/tourism. Otherwise you may have to find your own niche. You are very young so may be drawn to the bustling and dynamic east coast - it has all the draws of entertainment, nightlife, glitz that many young people crave and that includes great gardens and nurseries for plant lovers. The west coast is much quieter and laid back. There is nothing remotely like South Beach, few nightclubs and stuff like that. Orientation is toward families and retirees (the kids call Cape Coral "Cape Coma" and say they can't wait to leave. But few do and those usually return to raise their families in a "safe community"). But it's perfect for me. I'm an introvert who'd rather repot plants than hit the town in a chemically induced haze. This area tends to go even quieter after May 1 when all the snow birds have left.

Naples, Marco Island, Bonita Springs are indeed expensive. But you can probably find an offwater lot or house in Cape Coral that's quite reasonable if you have a decently paying job. North Port may have well priced real estate. But it's probably 40 miles further north of me and those miles count in winter. Punta Gorda is only 20 miles north and has significantly colder nights - a few degrees sway may mean the difference between life and death for a coconut.

If I were you I'd plan to visit prospective areas in FL and TX. I always say visit when weather is at its worst. In FL that's mid-summer. Before we moved here in 1993 I spent days in the library reading reference books (no internet then) about potential places to live in FL. I steered away from the east coast - having spent most of my life living in the Washington DC area, I and my husband wanted to get away from endless traffic. I narrowed my choices to Pensacola and Ft. Myers. When I discovered Pensacola has a 2-1/2 to 3 month winter freeze temps, I dropped it (my husband !*((#$%^ endlessly 6-7 months about Washington winters and I didn't to listen to him even a few months).

That left Ft. Myers/Cape Coral. Those 100s of mile of canals in the Cape looked enticing on a city map, but I leaned toward FM anyway - until I found out most of area crime festered there. So we visited Cape Coral in the swelter of July, decided we could handle the worst. The rest is history.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

The northern limits for coconuts do not include anywhere in the interior where zones can be 1/2 to 1 zone colder than on the coast. Arctic fronts can barrel south along the spine of the state where there are no very large water bodies to moderate them except right on Lake Okeechobee. Around here, the safest areas for coconuts are right near the Gulf - Pine Island, Matlacha, Sanibel, et. al. I live in central Cape Coral and grow coconuts but lost all of mine after the winter of 2009/10. I haven't had weather that cold since but I know another record winter is somewhere in my future. Much further east of Ft. Myers, i.e., Lehigh Acres, coconuts and Adonidias, etc. are pretty much a losing gamble long term. Texas beyond the Gulf faces a similar problem.

So keep location in mind if you plan to move here - the nearer the water the safer your garden will be. Parts of central FL are loaded with lakes that produce warmer microclimates if you know what you are looking for (I don't). Also, the urban areas offer more lifestyle choices, unless you fancy the rural existence. Orlando's winters may be a bit warmer than years ago because of the heat island effect. And you may be able to find work at Universal Studios, the Rat's House or one of the other attractions that suck up tourist $$$$. Unless you are independently wealthy, lifestyle means jobs. Best opportunities are in health care and hospitality/tourism. Otherwise you may have to find your own niche. You are very young so may be drawn to the bustling and dynamic east coast - it has all the draws of entertainment, nightlife, glitz that many young people crave and that includes great gardens and nurseries for plant lovers. The west coast is much quieter and laid back. There is nothing remotely like South Beach, few nightclubs and stuff like that. Orientation is toward families and retirees (the kids call Cape Coral "Cape Coma" and say they can't wait to leave. But few do and those usually return to raise their families in a "safe community"). But it's perfect for me. I'm an introvert who'd rather repot plants than hit the town in a chemically induced haze. This area tends to go even quieter after May 1 when all the snow birds have left.

Naples, Marco Island, Bonita Springs are indeed expensive. But you can probably find an offwater lot or house in Cape Coral that's quite reasonable if you have a decently paying job. North Port may have well priced real estate. But it's probably 40 miles further north of me and those miles count in winter. Punta Gorda is only 20 miles north and has significantly colder nights - a few degrees sway may mean the difference between life and death for a coconut.

If I were you I'd plan to visit prospective areas in FL and TX. I always say visit when weather is at its worst. In FL that's mid-summer. Before we moved here in 1993 I spent days in the library reading reference books (no internet then) about potential places to live in FL. I steered away from the east coast - having spent most of my life living in the Washington DC area, I and my husband wanted to get away from endless traffic. I narrowed my choices to Pensacola and Ft. Myers. When I discovered Pensacola has a 2-1/2 to 3 month winter freeze temps, I dropped it (my husband !*((#$%^ endlessly 6-7 months about Washington winters and I didn't to listen to him even a few months).

That left Ft. Myers/Cape Coral. Those 100s of mile of canals in the Cape looked enticing on a city map, but I leaned toward FM anyway - until I found out most of area crime festered there. So we visited Cape Coral in the swelter of July, decided we could handle the worst. The rest is history.

Meg is right.  Forget any inland areas even in the Rio Grande Valley for growing really tropical palms and other stuff.  The inland limit for coconut palms in the Valley is the McAllen/Edinburg area, but Zone 10A does extend considerably farther inland in the Valley than it does in Central Florida, probably because the dessert is just west of there and the mountains of northern Mexico just west from there.  The really nice thing about the Valley is that with the dessert and mountains of northern Mexico just to the west, even after really bad Arctic fronts, warmth usually returns pretty quickly since the downsloping winds coming off the mountains is a warming wind.  Talls and probably hybrids like Maypans and Maymexes do fine there, but I haven't seen any dwarfs that far inland.  For the Malayan Dwarfs, you are limited pretty much to one county in Texas and that is Cameron County (and maybe the eastern 1/3 of Hidalgo County east of McAllen).  The Brownsville to Port Isabel area including Los Fresnos and Bayview is the area of the Valley that you can grow the most variety of truly tropical stuff and expect it to get some good size to it (because it is the high end of Zone 10A and borderline 10B there).  If you wanted a sleepy little out of the way fishing village, you might think of Port Mansfield east of Raymondville.  It is Zone 10A and I am sure you could grow Tall varieties of coconut palms there like the Mexican Tall and Jamaican Tall just fine there.  It is about an hour north of Brownsville along the Laguna Madre with easy access to the Gulf through the Mansfield Channel that separates North Padre Island from South Padre Island.  There is good fishing and diving around that part of the Gulf with a natural reef only about 2.5 miles northeast of the jetties in 45 ft. of water called 7 and 1/2 Fathom Reef.

[nitsua0895]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

The northern limits for coconuts do not include anywhere in the interior where zones can be 1/2 to 1 zone colder than on the coast. Arctic fronts can barrel south along the spine of the state where there are no very large water bodies to moderate them except right on Lake Okeechobee. Around here, the safest areas for coconuts are right near the Gulf - Pine Island, Matlacha, Sanibel, et. al. I live in central Cape Coral and grow coconuts but lost all of mine after the winter of 2009/10. I haven't had weather that cold since but I know another record winter is somewhere in my future. Much further east of Ft. Myers, i.e., Lehigh Acres, coconuts and Adonidias, etc. are pretty much a losing gamble long term. Texas beyond the Gulf faces a similar problem.

So keep location in mind if you plan to move here - the nearer the water the safer your garden will be. Parts of central FL are loaded with lakes that produce warmer microclimates if you know what you are looking for (I don't). Also, the urban areas offer more lifestyle choices, unless you fancy the rural existence. Orlando's winters may be a bit warmer than years ago because of the heat island effect. And you may be able to find work at Universal Studios, the Rat's House or one of the other attractions that suck up tourist $$$$. Unless you are independently wealthy, lifestyle means jobs. Best opportunities are in health care and hospitality/tourism. Otherwise you may have to find your own niche. You are very young so may be drawn to the bustling and dynamic east coast - it has all the draws of entertainment, nightlife, glitz that many young people crave and that includes great gardens and nurseries for plant lovers. The west coast is much quieter and laid back. There is nothing remotely like South Beach, few nightclubs and stuff like that. Orientation is toward families and retirees (the kids call Cape Coral "Cape Coma" and say they can't wait to leave. But few do and those usually return to raise their families in a "safe community"). But it's perfect for me. I'm an introvert who'd rather repot plants than hit the town in a chemically induced haze. This area tends to go even quieter after May 1 when all the snow birds have left.

Naples, Marco Island, Bonita Springs are indeed expensive. But you can probably find an offwater lot or house in Cape Coral that's quite reasonable if you have a decently paying job. North Port may have well priced real estate. But it's probably 40 miles further north of me and those miles count in winter. Punta Gorda is only 20 miles north and has significantly colder nights - a few degrees sway may mean the difference between life and death for a coconut.

If I were you I'd plan to visit prospective areas in FL and TX. I always say visit when weather is at its worst. In FL that's mid-summer. Before we moved here in 1993 I spent days in the library reading reference books (no internet then) about potential places to live in FL. I steered away from the east coast - having spent most of my life living in the Washington DC area, I and my husband wanted to get away from endless traffic. I narrowed my choices to Pensacola and Ft. Myers. When I discovered Pensacola has a 2-1/2 to 3 month winter freeze temps, I dropped it (my husband !*((#$%^ endlessly 6-7 months about Washington winters and I didn't to listen to him even a few months).

That left Ft. Myers/Cape Coral. Those 100s of mile of canals in the Cape looked enticing on a city map, but I leaned toward FM anyway - until I found out most of area crime festered there. So we visited Cape Coral in the swelter of July, decided we could handle the worst. The rest is history.

Yeah I think Pensacola is close to the same climate as Montgomery. The only difference that I can tell is their record lows are a bit higher so I'm sure the Gulf moderates for them a little. Although I was in Destin a couple years ago in March and when I walked out on the pier it was extremely cold. It was in the 50's and sunny but the wind made it feel much worse. 

I've never been to south Florida in the summer but I guess we get similar heat and humidity here. Our average high is 93 and low is 72 in July and there's never a break from it. I think the record low is 60F but I love it and it's much better than the cold weather we're getting now. Do you get a lot of wind from the ocean in Cape Coral? Because here there's almost no wind in the summer unless a storm pops up in the afternoon.

South Beach seems a little too crazy for me but I do like to watch baseball so it would be cool to live near the Marlins stadium even though I'm a Braves fan. Do you know much about Homestead? I'm guessing it's a little more laid back but still close to everything there is to do in Miami. However like you said I need to take a trip and experience both Texas and south Florida before I decide to live in either place.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 hour ago, nitsua0895 said:

Yeah I think Pensacola is close to the same climate as Montgomery. The only difference that I can tell is their record lows are a bit higher so I'm sure the Gulf moderates for them a little. Although I was in Destin a couple years ago in March and when I walked out on the pier it was extremely cold. It was in the 50's and sunny but the wind made it feel much worse. 

I've never been to south Florida in the summer but I guess we get similar heat and humidity here. Our average high is 93 and low is 72 in July and there's never a break from it. I think the record low is 60F but I love it and it's much better than the cold weather we're getting now. Do you get a lot of wind from the ocean in Cape Coral? Because here there's almost no wind in the summer unless a storm pops up in the afternoon.

South Beach seems a little too crazy for me but I do like to watch baseball so it would be cool to live near the Marlins stadium even though I'm a Braves fan. Do you know much about Homestead? I'm guessing it's a little more laid back but still close to everything there is to do in Miami. However like you said I need to take a trip and experience both Texas and south Florida before I decide to live in either place.

There are a lot of wholesale nurseries in the Homestead/Florida City area.  The cost of living there isn't as much as the Miami area, and it is more laid back and quiet there for the east coast.  Also, Everglades National Park is just west of there and Key Largo is only about 20 miles south of there.  But be sure to check out the Rio Grande Valley too, since I think you will REALLY like the price comparison in not just the cost of homes and land, but the cost of living in general.  Also, I think gas is about $1.00 to $1.25 a gallon less in the Valley.

[PalmatierMeg]

Florida in general gets a lot of wind because of proximity of water to the east and west. Cape Coral is very flat and in some places sparsely developed. The winter winds can howl across those expanses of vacant land. Summers are similar to yours except they last 6+ months, not 3, and the sun is much more ferocious all year. After 5-6 months of temps in the 90s with no relief at night, people can get a bit addled. Then you envy wealthy snow birds who can afford two residences.

[tropical1]

I think it depneds on what you are looking for, In southwest florida or southeast Florida, coconuts, royrals, royal poincianas are probably as common aa oaks in alabama.  Whereas in central florida they are less common but can be grown in the favorable microclimates. I have not been to south texas, but the pictures i have seen online suggest it does not look anything like south florida in terms of varieties of palms and tropical trees grown in general. Thats not to say those trees cant be grown in Texas but they arent the most common landscape plants used (ie planted by the hundreds along major roads and interstates). The whole coastal landscape from st. Peteresburgh south is pretty tropical looking on the west coast. Florida also has the advantage of much higher rainfall which most tropicals prefer. That said it is most likely more expensive than texas.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 hour ago, tropical1 said:

I think it depneds on what you are looking for, In southwest florida or southeast Florida, coconuts, royrals, royal poincianas are probably as common aa oaks in alabama.  Whereas in central florida they are less common but can be grown in the favorable microclimates. I have not been to south texas, but the pictures i have seen online suggest it does not look anything like south florida in terms of varieties of palms and tropical trees grown in general. Thats not to say those trees cant be grown in Texas but they arent the most common landscape plants used (ie planted by the hundreds along major roads and interstates). The whole coastal landscape from st. Peteresburgh south is pretty tropical looking on the west coast. Florida also has the advantage of much higher rainfall which most tropicals prefer. That said it is most likely more expensive than texas.

Most of the tropical stuff that is grown in South Florida can be grown in the Rio Grande Valley, but the reason that you don't see as much of it is two fold:  1.  the local nurseries don't carry nearly as much exotic tropical stuff like they should considering the favorable climate they have there, and 2. a lot of the stuff grown in South Florida requires a lot of annual rainfall (50" to 60"+) per year, which the semi arid Rio Grande Valley doesn't have, so to plant it there requires supplemental watering like in Southern California, but just not quite as dry as they are.

[tropical1]

Makes sense. Sounds like a good opportunity for a nursery in Texas.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, tropical1 said:

Makes sense. Sounds like a good opportunity for a nursery in Texas.

Yeah, I wish I could have an all organic palm and tropical plant nursery in Brownsville and help them start a tropical botanical garden like a Texas version of Fairchild.

[Really full garden]

There are plans for a botanical garden in Brownsville.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

2 hours ago, scottgt said:

There are plans for a botanical garden in Brownsville.

Good.  I hope so.  It is long overdue.  It isn't called the "Texas Tropics" for nothing!

[Really full garden]

4 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Good.  I hope so.  It is long overdue.  It isn't called the "Texas Tropics" for nothing!

I have seen some of the plans. I imagine they are in the fund raising stage now.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

2 hours ago, scottgt said:

I have seen some of the plans. I imagine they are in the fund raising stage now.

Scott,

If you don't mind me asking, how did you see the plans if you are in Guatemala?  Do you have some connection to Texas?  I wish I could be in on the design of the botanical gardens there.  There are so many tropicals I would like to see them include, including about 7 varieties of coconut palms.  There are probably about 150 to 200 different species of palms alone that could be grown there, not to mention many varieties of other tropicals like ficus.

John

[Really full garden]

John ,I grew up in the RGV.  My brother and his wife were thinking of building a house there. I was looking for an architect and found Origo Works , the firm lists the Brownsville Botanical Gardens and Park in their future project list. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, scottgt said:

John ,I grew up in the RGV.  My brother and his wife were thinking of building a house there. I was looking for an architect and found Origo Works , the firm lists the Brownsville Botanical Gardens and Park in their future project list. 

Oh, okay.  I seem to recall from members of the Palm Society of South Texas who live in the Valley, that they were going to donate some palms and even plant them, and I think the site for it was chosen right across the street from one of the members homes, but something happened a couple of years ago and nothing came of it since then.  How recently did you see that?  I hope that it is in the works again, because it truly is a great tropical climate to grow all sorts of neat things in addition to palms.  What part of the Valley did you grow up in?  I would love to have an all organic palm and tropical plant nursery and home on a few acres on the south side of a resaca there.

[Really full garden]

A very small portion of the RGV is actually zone 10A. If I had the opportunity to start a new garden there I would plant 70% zone 9A plants, 15% 9B,10% zone 10A and the remaining 5% would be 10B+ for tender tropicals for pots or seasonal display.

It is unfortunate that South Texas is prone to massive damage from polar blasts every decade or so.There are no mountain ranges to mitigate these extreme cold events  so the influence from the Gulf of Mexico is minimal.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 hour ago, scottgt said:

A very small portion of the RGV is actually zone 10A. If I had the opportunity to start a new garden there I would plant 70% zone 9A plants, 15% 9B,10% zone 10A and the remaining 5% would be 10B+ for tender tropicals for pots or seasonal display.

It is unfortunate that South Texas is prone to massive damage from polar blasts every decade or so.There are no mountain ranges to mitigate these extreme cold events  so the influence from the Gulf of Mexico is minimal.

That is probably according to the old USDA Climate Zone Map, now 10A extends all the way up to Flour Bluff, the east end of Ocean Dr. in Corpus Christi, North Padre Island, and up to Port A.  It also now extends inland to McAllen and possibly even Mission, with Port Isabel being borderline 10B and South Padre being solidly low end 10B.  I don't know how recently you have been there, but Cameron County is full of Zone 10 plants, especially Brownsville, with huge royal poincianas, royal palms, Hong Kong orchid trees, Sea Grapes, 30 to 45ft. tall in overall height (depending on variety) coconut palms, massive ficus, etc.

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, scottgt said:

A very small portion of the RGV is actually zone 10A. If I had the opportunity to start a new garden there I would plant 70% zone 9A plants, 15% 9B,10% zone 10A and the remaining 5% would be 10B+ for tender tropicals for pots or seasonal display.

It is unfortunate that South Texas is prone to massive damage from polar blasts every decade or so.There are no mountain ranges to mitigate these extreme cold events  so the influence from the Gulf of Mexico is minimal.

I looked at the historical data and you are right. I also checked central Florida and there was a similar pattern. However, the period post-1989 has been a lot milder for both regions - Brownsville's lowest temp since '89 is 28F and only five years have an absolute minimum low below 30F. 

[Sandy Loam]

I didn't see any coconut palms when I was there, but I do recall seeing lots of tender tropical plants growing everywhere in the RGV region of Texas from Brownsville-Port Isabel-South Padre Island up at least as far as Roma, TX.  Xenon, you have said in the past that Brownsville's climate is similar to Tampa, Florida's.  However, I was wondering if it might be more like Sarasota's or even Fort Myer's!?  

 

In the RGV I saw several types of palms, certainly including many tall and very old Roystonea Regia. (For example:  https://www.google.com/maps/@25.9019336,-97.4971781,3a,75y,331.08h,92.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdcWf75-H7GKQ6FQHrZlnoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)   There are all types of banana trees, Schleffera Actynophia of giant sizes, bougainvillea abounding, enormous Streliztia Nicolai in many places, plumerias, and I could go on and on.

 

Bear in mind that 1989 is almost thirty years ago and I am not expecting another 1989 to happen in my lifetime, at least not as long as the oceans continue warming.  

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

30 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

I didn't see any coconut palms when I was there, but I do recall seeing lots of tender tropical plants growing everywhere in the RGV region of Texas from Brownsville-Port Isabel-South Padre Island up at least as far as Roma, TX.  Xenon, you have said in the past that Brownsville's climate is similar to Tampa, Florida's.  However, I was wondering if it might be more like Sarasota's or even Fort Myer's!?  

 

In the RGV I saw several types of palms, certainly including many tall and very old Roystonea Regia. (For example:  https://www.google.com/maps/@25.9019336,-97.4971781,3a,75y,331.08h,92.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdcWf75-H7GKQ6FQHrZlnoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)   There are all types of banana trees, Schleffera Actynophia of giant sizes, bougainvillea abounding, enormous Streliztia Nicolai in many places, plumerias, and I could go on and on.

 

Bear in mind that 1989 is almost thirty years ago and I am not expecting another 1989 to happen in my lifetime, at least not as long as the oceans continue warming.  

 

Wow, those royals are literally on the Mexican border! It's easy to forget that the southernmost point in Texas is as far south as the Miami area.

[Really full garden]

1 hour ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

That is probably according to the old USDA Climate Zone Map, now 10A extends all the way up to Flour Bluff, the east end of Ocean Dr. in Corpus Christi, North Padre Island, and up to Port A.  It also now extends inland to McAllen and possibly even Mission, with Port Isabel being borderline 10B and South Padre being solidly low end 10B.  I don't know how recently you have been there, but Cameron County is full of Zone 10 plants, especially Brownsville, with huge royal poincianas, royal palms, Hong Kong orchid trees, Sea Grapes, 30 to 45ft. tall in overall height (depending on variety) coconut palms, massive ficus, etc.

I use the USDA 2012 climate map and according to the zip codes McAllen is Zone 9B as well as Harlingen. Zone 10A is the eastern half of Cameron County, a small area extends north into Willacy County and includes Padre Island.

The plants you mention are not good indicators of long term Zone 10 A or B. These plants are fast growing and can have impressive growth rates in 10 or 15 years. The Royal Palms on the Google Maps were planted as large plants probably shipped in from Florida so do not indicate long term Zone 10A either.

[Yunder Wækraus]

7 minutes ago, scottgt said:

I use the USDA 2012 climate map and according to the zip codes McAllen is Zone 9B as well as Harlingen. Zone 10A is the eastern half of Cameron County, a small area extends north into Willacy County and includes Padre Island.

The plants you mention are not good indicators of long term Zone 10 A or B. These plants are fast growing and can have impressive growth rates in 10 or 15 years. The Royal Palms on the Google Maps were planted as large plants probably shipped in from Florida so do not indicate long term Zone 10A either.

Royals can handle cold snaps below 30 now and then, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that concrete-filled heat island provide just enough of a boost to get the royals there through any cold snap that area might get from now on. The photos on this thread confirm that even native FL stands take a hard hit now and again: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/23771-fakahatchee-strand-in-the-everglades/

[Xenon]

Royal palms are actually field grown in S. Texas. Newer development seems to favor them over queen palms...in some neighborhoods almost every house has one (or more)! 

If you use the interactive 2012 USDA hardiness zone map, Harlingen and McAllen are right on the cusp of 10a - averaging 29.9F and 29F respectively. Brownsville averages 31-32F and the coast 32-33.

[Really full garden]

I would love to see coconuts and royals growing all the way up the coast to Houston and inland to San Antonio.

[Zeeth]

2 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

That is probably according to the old USDA Climate Zone Map, now 10A extends all the way up to Flour Bluff, the east end of Ocean Dr. in Corpus Christi, North Padre Island, and up to Port A.  It also now extends inland to McAllen and possibly even Mission, with Port Isabel being borderline 10B and South Padre being solidly low end 10B.  I don't know how recently you have been there, but Cameron County is full of Zone 10 plants, especially Brownsville, with huge royal poincianas, royal palms, Hong Kong orchid trees, Sea Grapes, 30 to 45ft. tall in overall height (depending on variety) coconut palms, massive ficus, etc.

From the data taken from the Brownsville airport, the average low temperature from the last 50 years is 31.7˚. Including only the data after 1989, the average low is 33.36˚, so still 10a. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

53 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Royal palms are actually field grown in S. Texas. Newer development seems to favor them over queen palms...in some neighborhoods almost every house has one (or more)! 

If you use the interactive 2012 USDA hardiness zone map, Harlingen and McAllen are right on the cusp of 10a - averaging 29.9F and 29F respectively. Brownsville averages 31-32F and the coast 32-33.

Hey Jonathon,

I was going to say that too, that there are a lot of locally nursery grown Royal Palms in the RGV, and I thought the 10A climate went further inland than what was stated earlier.  Brownsville many winters is 10B.  This winter, I wouldn't be surprised if they are 11A, and South Padre, borderline 11B.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

4 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

From the data taken from the Brownsville airport, the average low temperature from the last 50 years is 31.7˚. Including only the data after 1989, the average low is 33.36˚, so still 10a. 

Keith,

I knew Brownsville was solidly 10A, probably even before the '80's too, and like I said above, they are 10B many winters, with this winter probably 11A so far, with South Padre around 11B.