Criollo tall coconut - An Atlantic tall from the Dominican Republic - Disappointing result from this winter.

[Zeeth]

Disappointing news.

A little over a year and a half ago, I learned that the coconuts commonly seen for sale at local grocery stores, imported from the Dominican Republic, belonged to the group of Atlantic talls that include the Jamaican tall. As the Jamaican tall is no longer as ubiquitous in Florida as it once was, it's not super easy to find sproutable coconuts, so I thought this might provide an opportunity for easy and reliable access to a variety that's hardier than the standard Malayan for the areas on the fringes of the coconut zone. 

 

Winter isn't over yet, and they already look pretty bad. The lowest temperature so far this winter was 34˚ with frost. 

This nearby Maypan looks like winter hasn't even arrived yet.

 

They'll obviously live, so their ultimate hardiness is still unknown. Maybe they'll harden up a bit with age.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

2 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Disappointing news.

A little over a year and a half ago, I learned that the coconuts commonly seen for sale at local grocery stores, imported from the Dominican Republic, belonged to the group of Atlantic talls that include the Jamaican tall. As the Jamaican tall is no longer as ubiquitous in Florida as it once was, it's not super easy to find sproutable coconuts, so I thought this might provide an opportunity for easy and reliable access to a variety that's hardier than the standard Malayan for the areas on the fringes of the coconut zone. 

 

Winter isn't over yet, and they already look pretty bad. The lowest temperature so far this winter was 34˚ with frost. 

This nearby Maypan looks like winter hasn't even arrived yet.

 

They'll obviously live, so their ultimate hardiness is still unknown. Maybe they'll harden up a bit with age.

Hey Keith,

You aren't the only with a disappointing result.  My recently planted Jamaican Tall, I am afraid I am going to lose it.  Ironic, since it is my second most cold hardy variety, second only to my Mexican Tall, which is my 2nd youngest one with only 2 leaves open and one emerging and halfway open, and it has very little cold injury even though it was exposed to a light frost morning with 33.6F in its pot a few days before I planted it.  Was it you that recently told me that the Jamaicans, even though they are more cold hardy, don't like their roots disturbed, especially when they are young, and that results in their loss occasionally due to transplant shock?  If that's the case, then the transplant shock along with a night at 38.3F and another the following night of 33.6F just a week and a half after planting it, are probably what's doing it in, even though my slightly younger but slightly taller Maypan that I planted adjacent to it on the same day only has slightly moderate cold injury, and my least cold hardy one I planted, my little Yellow Malayan, though cold injured is probably going to pull through.  My Maymex has only slightly moderate cold injury too.

John

[Cluster]

Keith,

I hope they harden as they grow up, you have so many coconuts there, it would be very nice to be able to compare how the different varieties are when mature, I have never seen this variety before.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Guys, we're outside the true coconut zone so any survivors are a success story.  And I hope you both succeed.  The ugly ole golden MALAYANs survived last winter here in the frost hole.  This yesr has had 2 frosty mornings, so far (likely another coming this week) and they are really showing th damage.  But they will probably survive if this week brings the last of the 30's and frost. Are either of you growing Beccariophoenix alfredii?  They seem to be 5-10 degrees hardier and make a good coconut look alike.  So for the weeks like this one when the weather is more typical of Atlanta, they are less prone to complaint.

[Zeeth]

7 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Hey Keith,

You aren't the only with a disappointing result.  My recently planted Jamaican Tall, I am afraid I am going to lose it.  Ironic, since it is my second most cold hardy variety, second only to my Mexican Tall, which is my 2nd youngest one with only 2 leaves open and one emerging and halfway open, and it has very little cold injury even though it was exposed to a light frost morning with 33.6F in its pot a few days before I planted it.  Was it you that recently told me that the Jamaicans, even though they are more cold hardy, don't like their roots disturbed, especially when they are young, and that results in their loss occasionally due to transplant shock?  If that's the case, then the transplant shock along with a night at 38.3F and another the following night of 33.6F just a week and a half after planting it, are probably what's doing it in, even though my slightly younger but slightly taller Maypan that I planted adjacent to it on the same day only has slightly moderate cold injury, and my least cold hardy one I planted, my little Yellow Malayan, though cold injured is probably going to pull through.  My Maymex has only slightly moderate cold injury too.

John

Yeah, I've had bad experience with moving small Jamaican talls. They transplant alright when they're at the stage that my Maypan is, but I've had 2 die from moving them when they're younger. Yours probably was the cold+root shock that did the damage. 

[Zeeth]

1 hour ago, Keith in SoJax said:

Are either of you growing Beccariophoenix alfredii? 

I've got about 10 planted around the yard in various spots that I sprouted from seed in 2010. Here's my biggest one.

You can see another one in my first picture planted between the coconuts. I know the coconuts wont live longer than 20 years, so I already planted their replacements. 

[Zeeth]

7 hours ago, Cluster said:

It would be very nice to be able to compare how the different varieties are when mature.

That's the plan. I've got 10 different varieties of coconut so I can compare the growth rate and cold hardiness. We get yearly frosts, a freeze every 2 or 3 years, and a killing freeze about every 20. The coconuts shouldn't take long to grow out of the frost zone, and at that point they'll be protected from everything except a killing freeze. I'm hoping that out of the 10 varieties, I have one that might survive a killing freeze. 

[hbernstein]

2 hours ago, Zeeth said:

That's the plan. I've got 10 different varieties of coconut so I can compare the growth rate and cold hardiness. We get yearly frosts, a freeze every 2 or 3 years, and a killing freeze about every 20. The coconuts shouldn't take long to grow out of the frost zone, and at that point they'll be protected from everything except a killing freeze. I'm hoping that out of the 10 varieties, I have one that might survive a killing freeze. 

They won't. You said it yourself: "killing freeze" . Unless you are actually in a microzone that stays slightly warmer. or climate change results in the total elimination of severe cold front incursions into peninsula Florida in the next few years, a killing freeze will eventually happen.

[Zeeth]

22 minutes ago, hbernstein said:

They won't. You said it yourself: "killing freeze" . Unless you are actually in a microzone that stays slightly warmer. or climate change results in the total elimination of severe cold front incursions into peninsula Florida in the next few years, a killing freeze will eventually happen.

There are local ones that survived the last killing freeze, 2010. The problem is that most of the coconuts available here are Malayans, which are damaged at much higher temperatures than other varieties. 4 of the ones I currently have were sprouted from local coconuts that survived the last killing freeze, and 2 of those were ones that survived the one before (the '80s).

[hbernstein]

I guess that the size of the plant and quantity of (sacrificial) insulating material growing around the bud, as well as freeze duration, makes all the difference.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

14 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Yeah, I've had bad experience with moving small Jamaican talls. They transplant alright when they're at the stage that my Maypan is, but I've had 2 die from moving them when they're younger. Yours probably was the cold+root shock that did the damage. 

Keith,

I think you are right, and I am trying the same approach.  I have already planted 5 different varieties, with plans to plant two more, hoping that at least one or two make it to maturity (granted not as big as Coconut Palms in your area) and fruit.  They have grown to maturity and fruited here before, so I know it can be done with the right varieties and enough consecutive normal to mild winters.

John

[Cluster]

Well at least you guys get to try so many different coconuts I get to try none and see the few left being butchered! Maybe I will be able to start a coconut movement on Madeira island and eventually it will be easy to get them, it should fruit there with enough water and then I can eventually go to the beach and drink coconut water, something I have never done:)

 

PS: I still wonder if the Malayan, mostly the green has sweet water.

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Cluster

[Silas_Sancona]

Yea, a little beat up atm but agree that they should snap back once we get a extended warm spell Keith. Sounds like you experienced a similar situation frost-wise there in Palmetto like i did at the House. Had frost damage in a couple surprising spots. Aside from the ones you'd mentioned, how are the rest looking. On a side note, sending you a non coconut related PM that might just cheer you up.

[Zeeth]

The other ones have varying degree of damage, all related to frost. My Jamaican tall and Maypan are the only ones that were exposed but not damaged. My Fiji dwarf and one of my Nawassi talls were under the shade of other coconuts, and they were undamaged. My Panama tall and all of the Hawaiian talls were about 20% damaged overall, but most of that was on the lower leaves. Overall, the damage ranged from about 0-20% leaf burn, except the Criollo talls.

They should grow a new crown pretty quickly though. The Maypan I posted was about their size when I planted it last spring.

[Jeff Searle]

A couple of things. First, their small, so they would be a little more sensitive to cold weather now compared to ones that are much bigger and well established. And some slight browning is no big deal to me. Their alive! But more importantly, that they appear to be planted a couple of feet from your pool screen. Why were these planted so close? You really risk a lot of damage with your screen and even the frame with the leaves rubbing up against them, don't you?

[Zeeth]

Here are some pics

 

Maypan from Selby on left, Orange Hawaiian tall in middle, Jamaican tall on right (the brown leaves on the JT is from age rather than cold)

Jamaican tall on left, Fiji dwarf in middle (in pot) Hawaiian tall on right.

Orange Hawaiian tall in the back in a pot. Two Nawassi talls in pots further forward. Panama tall in the ground.

 

[Zeeth]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Searle said:

A couple of things. First, their small, so they would be a little more sensitive to cold weather now compared to ones that are much bigger and well established. And some slight browning is no big deal to me. Their alive! But more importantly, that they appear to be planted a couple of feet from your pool screen. Why were these planted so close? You really risk a lot of damage with your screen and even the frame with the leaves rubbing up against them, don't you?

They're about 3 or 4 feet a way, so they probably should have been planted a little further. The leaves on all the other coconuts have grown so long by their second or third year that I figured they'd be above the screen before it becomes an issue, since the leaf tips wouldn't be able ton contact the screen. There always is the option to trim any that become a problem though. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2016‎ ‎9‎:‎32‎:‎04‎, Cluster said:

Well at least you guys get to try so many different coconuts I get to try none and see the few left being butchered! Maybe I will be able to start a coconut movement on Madeira island and eventually it will be easy to get them, it should fruit there with enough water and then I can eventually go to the beach and drink coconut water, something I have never done:)

 

PS: I still wonder if the Malayan, mostly the green has sweet water.

 

Pedro, that was funny.  I feel for you!  You live in a climatically (though not geographically) tropical climate in which Coconut Palms can grow to maturity and fruit, yet you can't get any.  I live in a marginal northernmost limit climate for them on the Gulf Coast, and yet I can obtain several different varieties.  What's the appropriate word?  A paradox.

I think that the Green Malayan may have sweet water when the nuts are fairly large, yet still green, but I am not sure.  I spend so much attention trying to grow Coconut Palms that I have never opened up a coconut to drink the water out of it.  I do however drink young (naturally sweet) all natural coconut water out of a can, especially when I am doing landscaping work in the heat.  It is highly nutritious, tastes great, and has 5 times more Potassium than a banana!  Maybe if I could ever get one of my palms large enough to produce, then I will be able to try a fresh coconut (but I am so clumsy that I would probably chop my hand off it I used a machete to open it up!).  Much of the coconut water sold in cans over here comes from Thailand, and that is right in the general vicinity of where the Malayan Dwarfs are native to, so it may be Green Malayan coconut water that I drink.

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

15 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Here are some pics

 

Maypan from Selby on left, Orange Hawaiian tall in middle, Jamaican tall on right (the brown leaves on the JT is from age rather than cold)

Jamaican tall on left, Fiji dwarf in middle (in pot) Hawaiian tall on right.

Orange Hawaiian tall in the back in a pot. Two Nawassi talls in pots further forward. Panama tall in the ground.

 

Wow, Keith.  Your Green Hawaiian Tall looks GREAT!  And so does your Jamaican, though slightly smaller.  Which is older?  By the way, My Maypan, which has a green petiole has slightly moderate cold damage, just like one of my Maymex hybrids, the other Maymex ? has moderate cold damage but is my smallest and youngest sprout still in its pot, my Jamaican is looking bad but may recover, but like you said, it could be mostly due to transplant shock plus getting hit with the light frost didn't help, my Yellow Malayan has moderate cold damage, but will probably quickly recover as the new spear looks pretty good and keeps opening and the other leaves are just moderately spotted and  browned at the edges, but my Panama Tall, which is fairly small and still in a pot has only very slight cold damage, and my little Mexican Tall that I planted just a about a week and a half ago (was exposed to the light frost morning in its pot before planting) has only a very little bit of negligible cold damage, which so far is confirming my assertion that they are the most cold hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere.

John

[Cluster]

On 2/11/2016, 5:13:51, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Pedro, that was funny.  I feel for you!  You live in a climatically (though not geographically) tropical climate in which Coconut Palms can grow to maturity and fruit, yet you can't get any.  I live in a marginal northernmost limit climate for them on the Gulf Coast, and yet I can obtain several different varieties.  What's the appropriate word?  A paradox.

I think that the Green Malayan may have sweet water when the nuts are fairly large, yet still green, but I am not sure.  I spend so much attention trying to grow Coconut Palms that I have never opened up a coconut to drink the water out of it.  I do however drink young (naturally sweet) all natural coconut water out of a can, especially when I am doing landscaping work in the heat.  It is highly nutritious, tastes great, and has 5 times more Potassium than a banana!  Maybe if I could ever get one of my palms large enough to produce, then I will be able to try a fresh coconut (but I am so clumsy that I would probably chop my hand off it I used a machete to open it up!).  Much of the coconut water sold in cans over here comes from Thailand, and that is right in the general vicinity of where the Malayan Dwarfs are native to, so it may be Green Malayan coconut water that I drink.

John

Hello John

I also thought it was funny hehe:)

I have not tried sweet coconut water yet (that is natural at least!). Did not know the water had that much potassium, even more than a banana. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 hour ago, Cluster said:

Hello John

I also thought it was funny hehe:)

I have not tried sweet coconut water yet (that is natural at least!). Did not know the water had that much potassium, even more than a banana. 

Yeah, fresh coconut water is great and very good for you.  Also, coconut oil is even better for you than olive oil!

[User00]

6 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Yeah, fresh coconut water is great and very good for you.  Also, coconut oil is even better for you than olive oil!

King Coconut water used here for many treatments, people who take treatments  drink it when it s too young (  fruit's salty taste stage)  because  King's water is very sweet it not suitable for diabetic people drink lots of king water. but people drink it for refreshment drink it at it best sweet stage. there is a company now start to export kings' water 

Malay gold taste different than king but it also sweet when little matured 

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, User00 said:

King Coconut water used here for many treatments, people who take treatments  drink it when it s too young (  fruit's salty taste stage)  because  King's water is very sweet it not suitable for diabetic people drink lots of king water. but people drink it for refreshment drink it at it best sweet stage. there is a company now start to export kings' water 

Malay gold taste different than king but it also sweet when little matured 

 

I just read recently that coconut oil can help with Alzheimers and Parkinsons.  If that is true the Big Pharmaceutical companies that make huge profits from selling very harmful drugs to people will try to suppress the truth so no one knows that there are natural treatments and even natural cures for a lot of ailments and diseases.

[Zeeth]

On February 11, 2016 at 00:29:51, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Wow, Keith.  Your Green Hawaiian Tall looks GREAT!  And so does your Jamaican, though slightly smaller.  Which is older?  By the way, My Maypan, which has a green petiole has slightly moderate cold damage, just like one of my Maymex hybrids, the other Maymex ? has moderate cold damage but is my smallest and youngest sprout still in its pot, my Jamaican is looking bad but may recover, but like you said, it could be mostly due to transplant shock plus getting hit with the light frost didn't help, my Yellow Malayan has moderate cold damage, but will probably quickly recover as the new spear looks pretty good and keeps opening and the other leaves are just moderately spotted and  browned at the edges, but my Panama Tall, which is fairly small and still in a pot has only very slight cold damage, and my little Mexican Tall that I planted just a about a week and a half ago (was exposed to the light frost morning in its pot before planting) has only a very little bit of negligible cold damage, which so far is confirming my assertion that they are the most cold hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere.

John

The Jamaican tall is actually a year older, but it had a setback last year when it was burned with christmas lights. The Hawaiian tall has always had very long leaves though. As a seedling it had leaves that were 7 feet tall and still not pinnate.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 minute ago, Zeeth said:

The Jamaican tall is actually a year older, but it had a setback last year when it was burned with christmas lights. The Hawaiian tall has always had very long leaves though. As a seedling it had leaves that were 7 feet tall and still not pinnate.

Oh yeah, that's right, I remember you said that about the Christmas lights, but I didn't know it was a year older.  The best word I can think of to describe that Green Hawaiian Tall of yours is, WOW!  What would you say the normal annual growth rate is on each variety of your in ground coconuts, starting with your big Green Hawaiian?

[Zeeth]

I think at this point it's hard to say because nothing has trunk yet. All of the tall types have grown about 7 leaves this year. My Maypan has grown 6. The dwarves have all grown 5. My Panama tall has only grown 4 leaves this year though, interestingly. Both variety of the Hawaiian talls seem to be the fastest at forming long leaves though, as the orange Hawaiian talls went from waist height to as tall as my Jamaican tall (my oldest coconut) in one season. 

 

How this translates into feet of trunk per year is something that will become evident down the line. It's something that I plan on keeping data on once I start seeing trunk. 

[Cluster]

Is it possible the jamaican tall is getting less sun besides the christmas lights incident?

[Zeeth]

16 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Is it possible the jamaican tall is getting less sun besides the christmas lights incident?

No, everything in this spot is full sun for almost the entire day. 

[Cluster]

On 2/14/2016, 1:14:58, User00 said:

King Coconut water used here for many treatments, people who take treatments  drink it when it s too young (  fruit's salty taste stage)  because  King's water is very sweet it not suitable for diabetic people drink lots of king water. but people drink it for refreshment drink it at it best sweet stage. there is a company now start to export kings' water 

Malay gold taste different than king but it also sweet when little matured 

 

Glad to know the Malayans can be sweet too, I would like to get a Malayan or some sweet variety of coconut one day:)

 

[palmsOrl]

Keith, I haven't read the thread, but based on the photos, I think those Cocos in your photos look pretty good, similar to many of mine at the moment.  A little rough, but they will certainly survive and get more cold hardy with age.

Interesting, my golden Malaysian I purchased as a lone individual from a nursery in Apopka in October 2010 is spotless, and barely had any damage from last winter either.  I have had other another Golden Malaysian (2003-2010) that turned hideous yellow from extended chill/nutrient deficiency by the end of every winter, even with protection.  That palm finally died in January 2010.

It makes me wonder if my Golden Malaysian is really a Golden Cocos of some other variety, maybe a tall?

Edited February 17, 2016 by palmsOrl

[GottmitAlex]

Nice looking coconut palms Zeeth!

[RedRabbit]

How did your coconuts hold up this year Zeeth? Last year was fine, but this year most of the ones in my area took some damage.

[Zeeth]

17 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

How did your coconuts hold up this year Zeeth? Last year was fine, but this year most of the ones in my area took some damage.

I don't think that there was no damage on any of my coconuts this year. I only had a brief chance to see my palms since the cold snaps we had in January, but everything seemed pretty good. Some of my larger coconuts seem like they should start trunking soon. 

[RedRabbit]

Just now, Zeeth said:

I don't think that there was no damage on any of my coconuts this year. I only had a brief chance to see my palms since the cold snaps we had in January, but everything seemed pretty good. Some of my larger coconuts seem like they should start trunking soon. 

Glad to hear that. 

[kinzyjr]

Good to hear that everything is growing well.  I can certainly vouch for Jamaican Tall not liking their roots touched.  I lost one outright from digging a little too close to it to repair a pool line.  Hoping to get another this spring.