Dypsis ????????? What is it

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Here are pictures of a Dypsis unknown. I bought the seed many years ago from Ortanique as Dypsis commersiana. These seeds and germinated plants i shared around as D.commersiana. Palmpedia shows one of the those plants as does the Pacsoa site.

However page 237 Palms of Madagascar shows a different palm as D.commersiana which is not the palm species  i shared.

Someone might say it is D pinnatifrons, however the seeds are yellow not brown.

One picture i climbed on the roof to take it. the wall behind is 2.5 tall.

The petioles cascade down the palm and are longer than the Dypsis pinnatifrons growing in the RBGS and the WBG or anywhere else i have seen.

previously palms named D gracilis, Pinnatifrons Nodifera, etc have not grown in the garden.

 Looking forward to your thoughts on this

regards

Colin

 

 

 

[Chris Chance]

Looks like Dypsis rosea to me. Beautiful palm you got there! 

[Pando]

5 hours ago, palmtreesforpleasure said:

Here are pictures of a Dypsis unknown. I bought the seed many years ago from Ortanique as Dypsis commersiana.

Beautiful palm! Dypsis commersoniana? There are so few images on the web of this particular species. Palmpedia says that it's a clustering species, but I haven't seen any images that shows that. Those pinnatifrons complex palms are so variable, every one of them is different.

Longer petioles may support that it's commersoniana. On my rosea (or whatever it is) the petioles are non-existent:

Edited May 10, 2016 by Pando

[LJG]

Could be Nodifera. 

[richnorm]

What I am growing as nodifera has a very similar crown and a  very distinctive "bumpy" lower trunk ....   I will try to grab a photo later.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Thank you for the replies so far,

It is not clustering, so D.commersonia is out, it does not have red flowering bracts D Rosea is probably out

after each suggestion i will re look at the palm and compare, it is a strong grower and appear to more cool hardy than any other similar Dypsis i have attempted to grow and is the only one to have produced seed. It is a beautiful palm.

regards

Colin

[Pando]

What do the flowers look like closeup? How many ranks on the flower bract (looks like 2 or 3 on the picture)?

[richnorm]

9 hours ago, richnorm said:

What I am growing as nodifera has a very similar crown and a  very distinctive "bumpy" lower trunk ....   I will try to grab a photo later.

Hmm, terrible shot but pouring with rain out there....

[Palms4Steve]

Hi colin

I think I am growing the same Palm. It is also labeled Dypis commersiana. I was wondering if it was the correct name. It may have been one of your seedlings. Mine has not yet flowered. It has grown taller than I thought it was going to, so ended up being planted in the wrong spot. Nice looking Palm thou 

Steve 

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi Steve

It would be one of  the Ortanique ones.

You are correct in saying it is bigger than expected and a fast grower, it also is more cold hardy than similar looking palms in the genus. Based on the comments so far, more pictues will be taken tommorrow from a taller ladder for comparison to the suggestions made.

Regards

Colin

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Rich, Len, Norm and Pando

Today i got a taller ladder and some one to steady it and took more pictures above and below the flowering bract

It does not have crownshaft, different stem to Norms, picked and cleaned some seed for sizing.

[BS Man about Palms]

Dypsis iwantaone?

[Pando]

Hmm, trunk is almost completely smooth, doesn't look like nodifera.

[richnorm]

From Palmpedia/PoM:

" D. pinnatifrons is superficially very similar in habit, inflorescences and, especially, leaf form to D. nodifera. If staminate flowers and/or fruit are available, then there is no difficulty in separating them, for the former has three stamens and a seed with homogenous endosperm while the latter has six stamens and a seed with ruminate endosperm

D. pinnatifrons is fortunate to be among the most widespread of all Dypsis species, occurring up and down the length of Madagascar, particularly on the eastern side, and in both lowland and montane forest. It is also quite attractive, with slightly sigmoid (S-shaped) leaflets arranged in groups along the rachis. This solitary palm at maturity reaches 8 to 39 ft. in height and 1¾ to 6 in. in diameter. New leaves open red to maroon in color before turning a dark, glossy green. The range of latitudes and altitudes in which D. pinnatifrons is native led Drs. Dransfield and Beentje to conclude that various strains of the species could be selected to suit specific climates in cultivation"

[Pando]

Pinnatifrons vs. nodifera. Homogenous vs ruminate endosperm. I'd say some seed cutting may be in order.

Could also be a solitary commersoniana?

 

[palmtreesforpleasure]

14 minutes ago, richnorm said:

From Palmpedia/PoM:

" D. pinnatifrons is superficially very similar in habit, inflorescences and, especially, leaf form to D. nodifera. If staminate flowers and/or fruit are available, then there is no difficulty in separating them, for the former has three stamens and a seed with homogenous endosperm while the latter has six stamens and a seed with ruminate endosperm

D. pinnatifrons is fortunate to be among the most widespread of all Dypsis species, occurring up and down the length of Madagascar, particularly on the eastern side, and in both lowland and montane forest. It is also quite attractive, with slightly sigmoid (S-shaped) leaflets arranged in groups along the rachis. This solitary palm at maturity reaches 8 to 39 ft. in height and 1¾ to 6 in. in diameter. New leaves open red to maroon in color before turning a dark, glossy green. The range of latitudes and altitudes in which D. pinnatifrons is native led Drs. Dransfield and Beentje to conclude that various strains of the species could be selected to suit specific climates in cultivation"

Hello Richnorm, 

If it is a form  D,pinnatifrons is is certainly different to any i have seen before, ie petioles much longer, more leaves cascading down the trunk, much cold hardier than the one in the 2 botanic gardens (WBG + RBGS) different to the big ones at Utopia. This is much cold hardier and more robust, all other forms have been slow here and slowly died, This thrives and produces seed better than D.baronii by far. Cannot recall new red leaves but will look again. It does appear to have similar leaflets to pinnatifrons.

Ahh the palms of Madagascar keep surprising

regards

Colin

PS I will send seed to Ben at palmsforbrisbane so any one can buy it in the future from him, (i had better let him know first)

Some seed will go to Jeff Searle and to a few Californians to share about and maybe to NZ

 

[palmtreesforpleasure]

by the way

10 years from seed to seeding

another of these has just finished its first lot of seed, Ben will have plants available in a few years

regards

colin

[Mandrew968]

I am with Len on this--nodifera.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

6 hours ago, BS Man about Palms said:

Dypsis iwantaone?

What Bill,

Only 1

[Jeff Searle]

We need many more pictures....

[palmtreesforpleasure]

2 hours ago, Mandrew968 said:

I am with Len on this--nodifera.

page 373 Palms of Madagascar says the stems are hollowed out and used as blow pipes, You would lips needs wide enough and big enough to suck out the inside of a watermelon to use this as a blowpipe..

It could be a giant form maybe, the good book says it is smaller than a D pinnatifrons , this one isn't 

need to take more measurement and post them.

I will cut open a seed tomorrow and post the pictures.

regards

Colin

[LJG]

Colin, I wouldn't use size or cold tolerance to judge Nodifera. That palm literally grew everywhere in eastern Madagascar. From the top to the bottom. I saw some with trunks the size of a persons thigh. Well, a skinny person anyway. Me just guessing but it has to be Pinnatifrons or Nodifera IMHO. Cut open a seed when ripe. Problem solved :)

[edric]

Dypsis sp. 'Malagasy'

[richnorm]

Would love a few seeds Colin but fear they would be confiscated without a phyto..  However I would be happy to take the risk (at my expense of course).

D. nodifera is a tough grow here. I manage to keep one alive long term but it is stressed and a thrip magnet.

 

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hello 

Richnorm, i had the same problem at home and in 2 botanic gardens, very difficult grow for me

Maybe i have found a form that is different to all the others, Len said he has seen many of the forms, large and small.

cut seed pictures below

[Pando]

I can't see any ruminations. Pinnatifrons then? Unless it's something yet undescribed.

Speaking of Dypsis commersoniana, I found an interesting article describing it in more detail, including a type illustration. It doesn't even have tightly grouped leaflets like pinnatifrons, and doesn't look like the current pictures in Palmpedia.

http://media.e-taxonomy.eu/palmae/protologe/palm_tc_65423_P.pdf

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Pando

[richnorm]

Homogenous endosperm = pinnatifrons 

[palmtreesforpleasure]

When re reading the description of the Dypsis pinnatifrons they have brown seeds not yellow. However, what we may call the pinnatifrons complex might deserves more study as mentioned on page 340 palms of Madagascar. It also states that there is a robust form, twice as big as the normal from the island of nosy be.

Will takes a video tommorrow

Facts of this palm in the garden

1/ nothing bothers it, no bugs, spider might fungus

2/It grows strongly, palms bought as D. Sambiranensus  (from nosy be). D.pinnatifrons.D pink crownshaft, D gracilis have all been attacked by something and died a few times.

3/ likes bright light, the other one is in shade and is slower

If it is from the pinnatifrons family, it is a form which will bring collectors a cooler climate  fast growing form

Don't you just love Madagascan palms,

They never stop throwing up curiosities,

It must drive Dr Dransfield crazy

Regards

Colinl

 

 

[Pando]

Yup. I have something like this growing in my garden in SoCal (from the pinnatifrons complex), which is why I'm so interested in these species. It grew 4-5 feet in one year, has zero bugs or other ailments (so far), no issues with our cool wet winter weather, etc., not to mention an emergent leaf that stays red for 4 months. And this is in a climate that is generally just not favorable for this species complex.

Some of them must have the good genes. It will be interesting to find out whether those traits are passed on to the seedlings.

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Pando

[edric]

I meant to say Dypsis sp. 'Maroantsetra'

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Thank you Edric

Very similar to that palm, the strong maroon red leaf seems to be absent from my 2. Trunk similar 

Pictures of my small one 

The new red leaf is a slight maroon, i will watch it open to see if it gets deep maroon.

Has any grower of Dypsis sp. 'Maroantsetra' had seed yet?

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Thank you Edric

Very similar to that palm, the strong maroon red leaf seems to be absent from my 2. Trunk similar 

Pictures of my small one 

Here is a video taken today, will take video of the smaller one  (still in a pot) later

regards

colin

[richnorm]

New species or not it needs a name for horticultural purposes....    Stunning palm.

 

[Pando]

Dypsis pinnatifrons "Yellow Seed" ? 

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Sorry about the delay in giving you more info on this palm, needed to check a few things first.

The pictures show the branches coming from the 2nd branch, does this confirm 4 branches from the Inflorescence?

also below are pictures from the smaller one of have in a pot in deeper shade, same original seed batch. 

This palm does not have a crownshaft like the Dypsis pinnatifrons description on page 338 POM nor as pictured on that page.

A new leaf has opened and it is green not red.

thank you

Colin

 

[richnorm]

If I follow you correctly I think that means branched to 3 orders . D pinnatifrons is branched to 3 to 4 orders.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi Richard

There is 2 branches before this piece which has 2, so i think this makes it 4 branches i think.

The cut ded proves it is not nodifera,

It does not have a new red leaf nor a crownshaft.

It could be a different form of pinnatifrons or something unnamed.

Will continue to research it

Regards

Colin

[Pando]

Perhaps a botanist could set this straight, but it's my understanding is that you start counting with the main rachis as 0. The first branching would be 1 and so on.

[richnorm]

2 hours ago, Pando said:

Perhaps a botanist could set this straight, but it's my understanding is that you start counting with the main rachis as 0. The first branching would be 1 and so on.

Correct, but I am not a botanist!  

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Thank you Pando and Richard, the first one is called a Peduncle, Ist branch comes of that and so on.

SOOO that would make only 3 branches, thank you for your help on this.

I have just found Philibert Commerson, a botanist noted in the fine print on page 340 "lecotype of D. pinnatifrons without locality" from the 1800's.

So it maybe a very cold hardy robust form of pinnatifrons, locality unknown. however there appears to be an opportunity for further study on this species types.

No other form i have encounted has grown like this one over the years. 

this Dypsis mystery has a form of conclusion...maybe.....

regards

Colin