Age of Tall Attalea

[Norm]

I am researching this tree, trying to get a fix on its age.    It is located on the grounds of a middle school in Honolulu.  The school sits on a large piece of property just outside the central business district of Honolulu.  At one time the property was the residence of Hawaiian royalty.  This was before year 1900.

The height of this tree is 100 feet, or 30 meters+.    Does anyone have clues to the age of this palm?

 

Mahalo, Norm

 

 

 

 

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Very very old!  They are so slow.

[PalmatierMeg]

Beautiful old palm (how old I have no idea)

[Tropicgardener]

That is amazing....... Haven't ever seen on so tall !!

 

[Pedro 65]

Norm, below  mentions Attalea maripa 1855, but as you'd be well aware Arbour day didnt start till 1905.

Any, anything to try n help out.

Pete

 

Traveller's Palm - Ravenala madagascariensis - circa 1860 - Not a ...

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/563724078329858258/

Celebrate Arbor Day year-round by practicing xeriscape .... Maripa Palm - Attalea maripa - circa 1855 - Fronds grow up to 39 feet long ... circa 1856 - Rare in the wild (grows only in Brazil) it is a well regarded landscape plant in Florida. ... ocotillo in the succulent garden at Kapi`olani Community College, Honolulu, Hawaii.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

I just finished reading the Attalea article in the IPS Palms Journal.  They report one species reaching 45 meters!  Thats dang tall!  I really wish there were a species that was hardy in Central FL

[Ben in Norcal]

39 minutes ago, Keith in SoJax said:

I just finished reading the Attalea article in the IPS Palms Journal.  They report one species reaching 45 meters!  Thats dang tall!  I really wish there were a species that was hardy in Central FL

Cohune a no-go there?  I am trying one here.

[realarch]

Norm, there are some Attalea about the same size around the Capitol building complex. There must be seven or eight of them in a single line. Nor sure of the species. 

Tim

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

8 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Cohune a no-go there?  I am trying one here.

Tim, I haven't found one to buy, but I've never seen one growing here.  There was an A cohune at Leu Gdns in Orlando but it died after a lightning strike.  It was growing in a heavily forested area and one of the canopy trees carried the strike.  But Leu is considerably less susceptible to freezing temps than I am, plus they had canopy overhead where I do not.  All of this won't prevent me from trying, but I have low expectations that one will grow here.  I have been a fan of this genus since I did a summer internship at Fairchild back in the early '80's.  

[Mandrew968]

Attalea dubia is the cold hardy one. Should be good in the 20's--where exactly in the 20's, I have no idea...

 

20 years in South Florida can get you a really good sized Attalea--maybe close to 40 feet or better. My neighbor's speciosa is about 20 feet in 5 years, planted from a citrus container. I think Attalea would like Hawaii's soils better than ours as they are prone to deficiencies here. They would have a longer growing season there too, so feasibly that palm could be as young as 60 years. It could also be 100+ years old. Without documentation, it's just an educated guess--we should all know there is no aging method for palms...

[Zeeth]

40 minutes ago, Mandrew968 said:

Attalea dubia is the cold hardy one. Should be good in the 20's--where exactly in the 20's, I have no idea...

 

20 years in South Florida can get you a really good sized Attalea--maybe close to 40 feet or better. My neighbor's speciosa is about 20 feet in 5 years, planted from a citrus container. I think Attalea would like Hawaii's soils better than ours as they are prone to deficiencies here. They would have a longer growing season there too, so feasibly that palm could be as young as 60 years. It could also be 100+ years old. Without documentation, it's just an educated guess--we should all know there is no aging method for palms...

A. dubia is cold hardier than A. cohune, but A. cohune isn't too bad itself. I've seen them growing in 9b without much issue. The leaves on A. cohune are much nicer than A. dubia, in my opinion.

[Mandrew968]

Well, Keith, not being from here, you unfortunately don't get to see as much as I have--all has to do with position and soil. I have seen 30 feet on an Attalea leaf.

[Zeeth]

9 minutes ago, Mandrew968 said:

Well, Keith, not being from here, you unfortunately don't get to see as much as I have--all has to do with position and soil. I have seen 30 feet on an Attalea leaf.

I assumed it had to do with soil depth. I'd say the ones at Kopsick have topped out at 40' in their prime. They're about 35' in that picture now that they've got trunk.

[Mandrew968]

Here is a speciosa that is several years from trunking and these fronds are already pretty large. They will get considerably larger before a trunk appears.

[Zeeth]

Well, considering your longer growing season, better winter and more rainfall, I would expect that a spot with good soil would grow a really nice Attalea, but it seems that's the limiting factor for them developing huge leaves. The one in your photo looks similar to most of the ones that I've seen there that were already flowering and trunking.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Kopsick is much much less prone to frost and freezing conditions than central Polk county, Keith.  I'm a 9a/9b locale, Kopsick is likely a full zone warmer.  I would be thrilled to be able to grow any Attalea to the size of the one in your photo.  You can count on me buying A dubia if I ever find one.  

I'm way too old to grow one the size of the tree in Hawaii, but I can still envision an entire grove of them and the majestic feel of that outdoor space listening to the fronds rustle in the breeze atop giant trunks soaring into the sky.  At the right spacing, they would create the feel of a gigantic outdoor cathedral.  OK, back to my excel spreadsheet now.  Enough fantasy for the moment.  

[Eric in Orlando]

Wow, that is the tallest Attalea I have ever seen!

 

 

 

[Eric in Orlando]

2 hours ago, Keith in SoJax said:

Tim, I haven't found one to buy, but I've never seen one growing here.  There was an A cohune at Leu Gdns in Orlando but it died after a lightning strike.  It was growing in a heavily forested area and one of the canopy trees carried the strike.  But Leu is considerably less susceptible to freezing temps than I am, plus they had canopy overhead where I do not.  All of this won't prevent me from trying, but I have low expectations that one will grow here.  I have been a fan of this genus since I did a summer internship at Fairchild back in the early '80's.  

 

 

Keith, that one killed by the lightning was Attalea rostrata. But lightning struck a nearby tree. The palm itself was still trunkless but had about 20ft long leaves. It was planted in 1973 so had lived here about 25 years. Below 28-29F would burn the leaves but it would regrow back fast. It had survived the 3 big freezes in the 1980s that killed Syagrus romanzoffiana near it. There is also an Attalea (or several) that had survived at Dent Smith's residence over in South Daytona since the late 1950s. I would try A. cohune, A. phalerata and A. rostrata. 

Since then we have planted others. This is what we are growing now;

Attalea allenii

A. brejinhoensis

A. butyracea

A. cohune

A. colenda

A. dubia

A. funifera

A. phalerata

A. rostrata

 

At one time we also had A. liebmanii and A. macrocarpa but they were crushed under fallen tree branches in the 2004 hurricanes.

 

[Zeeth]

20 minutes ago, Keith in SoJax said:

Kopsick is much much less prone to frost and freezing conditions than central Polk county, Keith.  I'm a 9a/9b locale, Kopsick is likely a full zone warmer.  I would be thrilled to be able to grow any Attalea to the size of the one in your photo.  You can count on me buying A dubia if I ever find one.  

I'm way too old to grow one the size of the tree in Hawaii, but I can still envision an entire grove of them and the majestic feel of that outdoor space listening to the fronds rustle in the breeze atop giant trunks soaring into the sky.  At the right spacing, they would create the feel of a gigantic outdoor cathedral.  OK, back to my excel spreadsheet now.  Enough fantasy for the moment.  

Kopsick is a 10b microclimate, but I've seen Attalea cohune growing in inland Sarasota in an area too cold for royals to grow. I'm also pretty sure that much of the new A. cohune transplants to the garden came from the Young garden in Tampa. 

Another one that you might have luck with is A. phalerata. There's a relatively old one growing at the USF botanical gardens. I don't like the plumose Attalea very much, but it's definitely got some hardiness to it. 

[Zeeth]

1 minute ago, Eric in Orlando said:

Keith, that one killed by the lightning was Attalea rostrata. But lightning struck a nearby tree. The palm itself was still trunkless but had about 20ft long leaves. It was planted in 1973 so had lived here about 25 years. Below 28-29F would burn the leaves but it would regrow back fast. It had survived the 3 big freezes in the 1980s that killed Syagrus romanzoffiana near it. There is also an Attalea (or several) that had survived at Dent Smith's residence over in South Daytona since the late 1950s. I would try A. cohune, A. phalerata and A. rostrata. 

Since then we have planted others. This is what we are growing now;

Attalea allenii

A. brejinhoensis

A. butyracea

A. cohune

A. colenda

A. dubia

A. funifera

A. phalerata

A. rostrata

 

At one time we also had A. liebmanii and A. macrocarpa but they were crushed under fallen tree branches in the 2004 hurricanes.

 

I'm surprised how few people are growing Attalea colenda. It seems like it'll be a nice species, though the leaves seem exceptionally sensitive to high winds. 

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

1 hour ago, Eric in Orlando said:

 

 

Keith, that one killed by the lightning was Attalea rostrata. But lightning struck a nearby tree. The palm itself was still trunkless but had about 20ft long leaves. It was planted in 1973 so had lived here about 25 years. Below 28-29F would burn the leaves but it would regrow back fast. It had survived the 3 big freezes in the 1980s that killed Syagrus romanzoffiana near it. There is also an Attalea (or several) that had survived at Dent Smith's residence over in South Daytona since the late 1950s. I would try A. cohune, A. phalerata and A. rostrata. 

Since then we have planted others. This is what we are growing now;

Attalea allenii

A. brejinhoensis

A. butyracea

A. cohune

A. colenda

A. dubia

A. funifera

A. phalerata

A. rostrata

 

At one time we also had A. liebmanii and A. macrocarpa but they were crushed under fallen tree branches in the 2004 hurricanes.

 

Eric, one of these days I'm going to come up and look at those palms.  I'm a traffic wuss...I-4 is just a nightmare.  There are times when it backs up from Haines City/27 all the way to downtown Orlando...thats about 30-35 miles of stop and go.  Drives me absolutely bonkers.  

[Norm]

Mahalo for your comments, everyone.  It looks like the age of this tree is going to remain vague.  There are a few others around on the Leeward side of Oahu.  This is the tallest.  One five blocks away is 3 meters shorter. (Tag says Orbygnia cohune, Cohune Nut Palm)  I am going to take Realarch's  hint about those at the State Captiol and see what's there.  Another one lurks at the edge of H3 freeway in Halawa Valley, height undetermined, but it's huge.  But I am sure that all these were imported long ago.  How long ago?

A likely scenario for the origin of this tree goes like this: The school grounds used to be the property of Princess Ke'elikolani, the wealthiest member of Hawaiian royalty in the late 1800's.  She built a palace for herself on the property in 1882, right after King Kalakaua built Iolani Palace nearby.    To inaugurate the grand home, she held an enormous luau for 1000 guests.  She hosted the mansion for some time afterward, but then her health began to decline. 

Since this Attalea was an import, an exotic one, my thought is that one of her guests gifted her the tree for the inauguration.  That would make the tree 135 years old. If the ones Realarch talks about are as tall, then it raises some interesting possibilities.  But either way, these are tied to the royals, and the age would be roughly the same. 

The princess died shortly after, but other royal members occupied the house for another two years.  When the royals moved away, the structure and grounds became Honolulu High School. 

Aloha,

Norm

 

[redbeard917]

I wonder if it would be possible to find a dated historical photograph of the palm, considering it's in a well known public place. Around here you can find books of old local pictures in the public library.

[realarch]

There might be a connection to Foster BG in Honolulu. It's an old garden with many South American species that have been there  what seems forever. Orbygnia was the old genus name before being changed to Attalea. 

Most of the large Attalea I've seen in gardens in East Hawaii are A. Cohune. 

Tim

[Norm]

I have not contacted Foster as yet.  On the to-do list.

There may be some good info coming from the State Department of Ag.  I am getting a pamphlet from them which describes the mini-arboretum on their headquarters grounds five blocks east of the main tree.  There are a number of "exceptional" trees planted there, besides the 27 meter Attalea which carries the Orbygnia tag.  Maybe something good will show up there, like dates and even photos. 

Norm

 

 

 

 

[PalmTreeDude]

Woah! I sure would like those to be fast growers!

[Norm]

Realarch was definitely right on. Thanks, Tim. There is a row of Attalea, on Palace grounds, between the Iolani Palace and the State Capitol grounds.  Today my friend took this quickie snap of a portion of the row.    I am going to take some measurements and photos this weekend if weather is right. 

Norm

[realarch]

Yeah, aren't they beautiful? At first I thought I was seeing things, then I realized they were the real thing.

Tim

[Josh-O]

On 9/13/2016, 6:52:38, Ben in Norcal said:

Cohune a no-go there?  I am trying one here.

Attalea Dubia is more cold tolerant then cohune Ben.

they are just hard to come by

[Norm]

Here is Realarch's row of Attalea on the grounds of Iolani Palace. If the canopies look bigger than the 30 meter tree at the school, that's because they are.  They are taller and wider and more richly packed.  A quick look at google earth will confirm that fact--the canopy signatures are far larger and more dense.   The trunks are thicker by about 15% at the base.  The tallest tree in the row is 92 feet, or 28 meters.  The palace grounds have been lavishly cared for over the years, the grounds of public schools, not so much.  But at this point I think these trees were planted later than the school tree, and I think, though my eye in not too discriminating, that they are all A. cohune.  

Still no clue as to age.  I have reached out to specialists, and maybe something will emerge. 

 

[Mandrew968]

This was Fairchild on Sunday--took the boys to run around. My oldest son for scale--he is about 6'2"...

[Mandrew968]

Joking aside--asked the golfcart what they thought and the consensus was 'as tall as a three story building'. Deduct about 5 feet due to trunk and you have 30+ foot leaves. In Miami.

[Zeeth]

That looks about what I'd expect from an Attalea. Which section of the park is that in? I may be wrong, but it reminds me of the rainforest section, which is the same spot where they removed a lot of the limestone bedrock and replaced it with red clay soils sourced from elsewhere in Florida. If this is the case, that makes sense with my soil depth hypothesis. If it's not, it must be something else keeping their leaves short in other areas.

[Eric in Orlando]

On 9/18/2016, 8:35:10, Norm said:

Here is Realarch's row of Attalea on the grounds of Iolani Palace. If the canopies look bigger than the 30 meter tree at the school, that's because they are.  They are taller and wider and more richly packed.  A quick look at google earth will confirm that fact--the canopy signatures are far larger and more dense.   The trunks are thicker by about 15% at the base.  The tallest tree in the row is 92 feet, or 28 meters.  The palace grounds have been lavishly cared for over the years, the grounds of public schools, not so much.  But at this point I think these trees were planted later than the school tree, and I think, though my eye in not too discriminating, that they are all A. cohune.  

Still no clue as to age.  I have reached out to specialists, and maybe something will emerge. 

 

 

 

WOW!, those are awesome!

 

 

 

[realarch]

Norm, thanks for posting those pics, pretty impressive huh? 

The large Attalea are impressive palms anyway.

Tim

[Norm]

Yes, impressive, Tim!  My friend and I spent a little over an hour there in the late morning.  We were awed.  There are 11 trees total in the row.  And the trunks are clean. 

I have learned that there is a Prince Kuhio link to the trees.  Palace docents refer to them as "Kuhio trees". I will need to confirm, but if this is true, then these trees are roughly 20 years younger than the school tree in my first post.

[Gileno Machado]

This group of Attalea oleifera (on the right) was planted by Burle Marx here in Recife in the 40's so they are probably 70 years old, with less than 20 meters of clear trunk so far. Comparing to the coconuts and Roystonea oleraceas, planted at the same time, they seem to be much slower growers. 

[colin Peters]

Thanks for posting Norm, The solitary one at the school has to be really old. Not in a real wet area, and like you said probably not much care given to it. Was close to my wife's old work, so would admire it as I drove by occasionally. The row by the palace is spectacular. 

aloha

[Norm]

Yes, me too, Colin.  It's been on my mind because I always noticed it when I went to the Nuuanu Y. 

On the Prince Kuhio connection to the Palace trees:  I have just learned that the Prince did purposely secure some seed on a sailing trip in the late 1890's.  This fact narrows the date range for the origin of the trees.  The year 1900 is pretty close. What made this Hawaiian prince search out those seed?  Can't say.  

The few others scattered around most likely originated from that same seed accession.  The Prince would have made gifts of the seed to friends. 

I am still researching the tree in my first post, it being older. 

I want to thank everyone for input on this matter.  Gileno, that's a really good reinforcing example of what these trees do.  Thanks for posting the photo with date. 

Norm