Florida Tropical Climate Map

[cocoforcoconuts]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:10 PM, SeanK said:

Did it snow in Thailand or Belize?

That is an irrelevant question dodging the important details. You think a single event of snow flurries (January 19, 1977) in the entire recorded history of Miami makes it not tropical?

Not to mention, you are fixating on Miami because there are still parts of South Florida that still meet even your own arbitrary fictional criteria.

There is no record of frost, ice, sleet, or snow ever in Key West, nor has the temperature ever fell below freezing with a record low of 5ºC (41ºF).

Thus, despite premising your argument on a made up, arbitrary/useless, and overly strict definition of tropical, you have still completely failed to refute my point that DavidLee's statement "Sorry Florida does not have any tropical regions" is nonsense.

Edited April 29, 2023 by cocoforcoconuts

[cocoforcoconuts]

4 hours ago, Teegurr said:

That's incorrect. The mean minimum temp for 1993-2022 (past 30 years) is 43 according to Nowdata. That means Miami is 11a.

He has to make things up to save his failing argument.

Just like before when he said C. renda can't grow in Miami, only for someone to reply with a picture of one in West Palm Beach lol

Edited April 29, 2023 by cocoforcoconuts

[cocoforcoconuts]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:18 PM, cocoforcoconuts said:

Actually I have lived in Thailand and Belize, but thank you for your false assumption Mr. Atlanta.

6ºC for Cairns? That's cute, the record low for Belize City is 10.9ºC.

That's besides the point anyways. Your relative comfort is a completely useless and arbitrary metric for delineating climate zones. Can you do that? Sure I guess, but what utility does that provide?

Your own example would not even qualify as tropical based off the criteria the other poster put forth to which I contested ("wet and dry season is the only seasons they have. No Spring, No Summer, No Fall, No Winter"). Cairns shows clear seasonal variation with a January daily mean of 27.9ºC (82.2ºF) and July daily mean of 21.7ºC (71.1ºF) with the average lows between those 2 months dropping from 24.0ºC (75.2ºF) to 17.2ºC (63.0ºF). THAT is the point, his criteria is waaay too restrictive.

I argue the flora and fauna that can survive is the most useful metric for classifying a climate. There is a reason why the landscaped flora of South Florida is completely different from the rest of the southeastern United States (even north Florida or adjacent inland central Florida), yet virtually identical to the Caribbean.

I reference landscaping because native flora of course relies upon more than just climate since you are dealing with natural dispersal corridors/barriers, and South Florida is contiguous with the subtropics to the north, but isolated from the tropics to the south. Fauna of course has more dispersal ability and unsurprisingly, you see native fauna in South Florida that are tropical species at the northern extent of their range such as American crocodiles and coral reefs (not to say there is not native tropical flora as well such as royal palms, mahogany, etc.). Not to mention the literal hundreds of nonnative/invasive species from the equatorial tropics that THRIVE in South Florida but are climate restricted from northward expansion.

It is conspicuously obvious to anyone with eyes that the flora and fauna climate transition barrier lies between Central and South Florida with overlap along coastal Central Florida (I am of the position that while coastal Central Florida is of course not tropical, there should be a new classification indicating a transitional zone as it is silly to call the climate of Anna Maria Island the same as Richmond, Virginia considering the clear difference in flora and fauna survivability), so I ask again, what is the utility in grouping South Florida with the regions to the north based off your comfort during the colder months?

Final point, yes there are some uber sensitive species that can only survive in the absolute most equatorial climates with no seasonal variation such as lipstick palms, but they are the exception rather than the norm. If you want to recognize the minor variation of species survivability amongst tropical climates and create a separate category for equatorial climates with near zero variation as the other poster argued, then call that something else ("equatorial" climate for example) because the tropical climate refers to the general* climate you see in the tropics, i.e. the regions between the tropic of cancer and tropic of capricorn.

*Of course there is more nuance, hence the "general".  As I stated in a previous post, geography has a role to play which is why Bogota is not tropical at all despite its position well within the tropics, yet Miami is despite being just a tad north.

Still waiting for you to address these points. I'm not surprised you are refusing though because you know they show just how utterly ridiculous your claim is

Edited April 29, 2023 by cocoforcoconuts

[bubba]

Instead of arguing, chill:

[Aceraceae]

5 hours ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

 

There is no record of frost, ice, sleet, or snow ever in Key West, nor has the temperature ever fell below freezing with a record low of 5ºC (41ºF).

 

For 1991 to 2020 or 1994 to present the Lower Keys are an ultratropical humid zone 12, with the 2016 to 2017 winter having a low near 60 F or 15 C, though early 2016 and late 2017 had mid 50s so it doesn't show up on the 'Key West lowest temperature each year' chart from the Current Results database. 

Also the 41 F (5 C) record low and annual mean min of 50 F (10 C) for Kew West are impressively close, closer even than Miami's upper 20s or Homestead's mid 20s to their annual mean minimums of mid to low 40s, if not upper 30s still (10b) in the rural areas. Archbold bio station Venus FL still seems to be zone 9. 

Other areas of the lower keys, and purportedly the Dry Tortugas, have been below 41 F/5 C 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Aceraceae
not better yet..the early 90s had high mins

[bubba]

It was interesting to compare Miami Airport with Brisbane, Australia. Brisbane has an average mean temperature in the coldest months approximating 61°F. This is not Tropical per Koeppen but Brisbane’s lowest recorded temperature is only approximately 30°F. 
 

My memory from the Rat Packer’s from Brisbane was their ability to grow Pigafetta elata consistently and long term. In comparison, I only know of occasional instances where this palm, adored by David Fairchild, can be grown with the same long-term regularity. Given our current warm-up, this may no longer be the case.
 

 

[__nevii]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:57 PM, Looking Glass said:

Here’s an example from Fort Lauderdale 2022….

We had 10 out of 365 days that it did not reach a high temp of 70 degrees during the day in 2022.   Those days limit certain palms...

I'm quite surprised in learning how mild of temps that some of these plants can take damage. 40s and 50s are definitely considered "mild" regarding typical nightly lows for subtropical areas, but apparently, those temps are enough to nuke quite a few tropicals if what you report is true...

[Aceraceae]

^

Yes it makes coconut and majesties look hardy. On a 1 through 7 algorithmic hardiness scale they're a 5 vs breadfruits etc being a 6 or 7. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Aceraceae

[Aceraceae]

Actually speaking of those ultra tropical exceptions, isn't there at least one each of almost all these metioned specimen plants in SFL including not only some C. renda, but also a flamethrower palm, Pigafetta elata, and at least one or two each of some Artocarpus species, such as a breadfruit tree in a garden or college campus? 

[bubba]

All those specimens mentioned likely do grow for some period of time in S Fl. Flamethrowers probably all the way up to Atlantic Beach (Jax. Beach).

I posted this in the Palm Forum but it likely will create more interest here:

https://eartharxiv.org/repository/object/5279/download/10393/

[Hombre de Palmas]

When iguanas start eating my hibiscus then I will know we have been subsumed by the tropics.

Having lived for many years near the equator I notice subtle differences in the assortment of landscape plants in South Central Florida, their vigor, flowering habits, dormancy periods, etc.  As far as native flora that is another matter altogether, and other posters have pointed that out. We currently have just about every plant in our current landscape that we had back in the day, except for lipstick palms which I would be hauling inside for at least 2-3 months of the year here in Florida.  I have no interest in having them as they were problematic even then because of the length and severity of the dry season. They are incredible though when they live where they want to be.

I would say the bit of relief we get in the winter months here is a welcome difference, along with the fact that the attendant paucity of precipitation is not as absolute as in our former home, but it comes with having the sword of Damocles hanging over us Dec-Feb in the form of frost, and to a lesser extent a freeze which has not visited us yet in six years thank heavens.😱

It was interesting taking stock of all the micro climates from cloud forest to savanna back then, all of which had their particular challenges and opportunities, but frost was never a worry.

 

[greysrigging]

On other weather related Forums, I have done the odd comparison between Miami and Townsville. The two places are very similar climatically except for the historical extremes ( in Townsville's case this is extreme heat and in Miami's case the instances of record cold spells ) 
Townsville is ya quintessential North Queensland tropical city, located at 19.3*S and 1,330 miles from the equator.
Miami is climatically 'tropical', despite being north of the Tropic of Cancer at 25.8*N and 1,783 miles from the equator.

[Aceraceae]

The sunshine hours and % are dead on at 3150 and 71% each. Though the seasonality is more in Townsville Austrailia going from 60 to 80% vs 66 to 77% in Miami.

Townsville has been in the low 30s and this is since 1940 vs the late 1800s and early 1900s records for South Florida, which is actually when most of the freezes and the all time record low occured (27 F -3 C Miami 1917). It is perhaps that the Townsville area has also had frost before 1940. 

SImilarly, Miami Beach's records only go the 1920s or so (1920s FL land boom and Great Hurricane of 1926 era). It is almost certain that in 1894-1895, 1896, 1899, and in 1917 when the great freezes occured, that Miami Beach had a freeze, likely 29 to 31 F, at least a full degree C below freezing. Also there are anecdotes of frost more recently when air temps were in the low to mid 30s. 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Aceraceae

[ShadyDan]

Thats quite amazing to see that Miami's climate is almost bang on Townsville's despite being ~450 miles further away from the equator. Miami even has warmer winter lows, although the record lows are lower (but not too much considering the distance difference). I think its pretty safe to say Miami and the rest of South Florida is firmly tropical (and yes I have been to South Florida multiple times to see it in person).

[Aceraceae]

Most of the record lows in Miami are higher as well, in the summer. Again Townsville data is decades shorter than Miami's and both are zone 11, a vs b. 

[__nevii]

I think Townsville's gets dry air from the Australian desert (either that, or GDR foehn effects). That probably contibutes to relatively chilly minima

 

[BoliFloridano]

New guy here. I've seen some rather contentious exchanges on whether South Florida is or isn't truly tropical, and someone invariably brings up a "truly" tropical locale elsewhere or will mention vegetation such as breadfruit in order to claim South Florida is not truly tropical -- apparently knowing better than climatologists (who dedicate years of their lives to the study and classification of climates) whose scientific, objectively identifiable criteria show South Florida as having different varieties of tropical climates, the classifications of which vary based on rainfall. I've even seen an absurd assertion that tropical places don't have winter, as if to suggest that no truly tropical place can experience significant temperature variation based on the seasons (seriously?!?!?).

It's as founded on personal experience as anything else, so I'll include my personal perception as a new resident of South Florida. Scratch that! Since it agrees with what expert, peer-reviewed scientists have established, it's not simply my personal experience, but rather my individual observation backed observation by science.

I moved here from Santa Cruz de la Sierra, Bolivia, a city within the tropical latitudes,  400 m (1300 ft) above sea level, in the Amazon Basin, with a Tropical Savannah (Köppen: Aw) climate.  It's just East of the Andes so hundreds of miles from the Pacific coast and nearly 2,000 miles from the Atlantic, thus it does not have the temperature-stabilizing effect of being near water. This means that temperature there varies significantly based on the time of year. There are no mountains directly to the South, so it occasionally experiences Antarctic blasts coming over the Argentine Pampas which lower high temperatures into the 50's for days at a time, sometimes even the 40's. I was even there for one of the coldest winters on record when temperatures dropped into the 30's. Its average highs and average lows during the Southern Hemisphere Winter are lower than both average highs and average lows for Miami during the Northern Hemisphere Winter. (As an aside 

Breadfruit wouldn't survive there. Which means...breadfruit wouldn't survive there. That's all that means. It's a tropical climate just the same.  One with greater variability in temperatures due to the combination of its far-inland location, the surrounding continental topography, and being close to the edge of the tropics (17.5 S lat).  I have never heard anyone who visited Santa Cruz claim it's not tropical because a particular species wouldn't grow there or because due north in Brazil it never gets as chilly (and the chill is bone chilling!! High humidity, so everything cotton feels wet and ice cold-- socks, undergarments, bedsheets, you name it! I would have to wear synthetics or wool, even a wool knit hat in the daytime -- and it's a tropical climate). 

South Florida is rainier (though less humid), but I see many of the same species that characterize Santa Cruz: Kapoks, Royal Poincianas, Royals, Manilas, Coconuts, Mangos, the occasional Attalea, many others whose names I don't know. It is every bit as tropical as a place whose tropical status has never been called into question.  Whether someone else thinks it's "truly" or not doesn't change it.  Sorry for writing a novel 😅

[bubba]

Welcome! Great to have you aboard!

[cocoforcoconuts]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:31 PM, BoliFloridano said:

New guy here. I've seen some rather contentious exchanges on whether South Florida is or isn't truly tropical, and someone invariably brings up a "truly" tropical locale elsewhere or will mention vegetation such as breadfruit in order to claim South Florida is not truly tropical -- apparently knowing better than climatologists (who dedicate years of their lives to the study and classification of climates) whose scientific, objectively identifiable criteria show South Florida as having different varieties of tropical climates, the classifications of which vary based on rainfall. I've even seen an absurd assertion that tropical places don't have winter, as if to suggest that no truly tropical place can experience significant temperature variation based on the seasons (seriously?!?!?).

It's as founded on personal experience as anything else, so I'll include my personal perception as a new resident of South Florida. Scratch that! Since it agrees with what expert, peer-reviewed scientists have established, it's not simply my personal experience, but rather my individual observation backed observation by science.

I moved here from Santa Cruz de la Sierra, Bolivia, a city within the tropical latitudes,  400 m (1300 ft) above sea level, in the Amazon Basin, with a Tropical Savannah (Köppen: Aw) climate.  It's just East of the Andes so hundreds of miles from the Pacific coast and nearly 2,000 miles from the Atlantic, thus it does not have the temperature-stabilizing effect of being near water. This means that temperature there varies significantly based on the time of year. There are no mountains directly to the South, so it occasionally experiences Antarctic blasts coming over the Argentine Pampas which lower high temperatures into the 50's for days at a time, sometimes even the 40's. I was even there for one of the coldest winters on record when temperatures dropped into the 30's. Its average highs and average lows during the Southern Hemisphere Winter are lower than both average highs and average lows for Miami during the Northern Hemisphere Winter. (As an aside 

Breadfruit wouldn't survive there. Which means...breadfruit wouldn't survive there. That's all that means. It's a tropical climate just the same.  One with greater variability in temperatures due to the combination of its far-inland location, the surrounding continental topography, and being close to the edge of the tropics (17.5 S lat).  I have never heard anyone who visited Santa Cruz claim it's not tropical because a particular species wouldn't grow there or because due north in Brazil it never gets as chilly (and the chill is bone chilling!! High humidity, so everything cotton feels wet and ice cold-- socks, undergarments, bedsheets, you name it! I would have to wear synthetics or wool, even a wool knit hat in the daytime -- and it's a tropical climate). 

South Florida is rainier (though less humid), but I see many of the same species that characterize Santa Cruz: Kapoks, Royal Poincianas, Royals, Manilas, Coconuts, Mangos, the occasional Attalea, many others whose names I don't know. It is every bit as tropical as a place whose tropical status has never been called into question.  Whether someone else thinks it's "truly" or not doesn't change it.  Sorry for writing a novel 😅

Thank you for your sane input into this conversation lol

[SeanK]

Seems tropical, for sure.

 

[Aceraceae]

Snow never landed. Pic is from central florida. It's interesting how inland rural homestead is often about 10 degrees colder than miami beach, despite being at the south end of SFL. And Venus/Archbold bio station is 9b. 

[Looking Glass]

My grandmother telling me about Miami that day…..

Seriously though….  Must have been quite a sight, even though it didn't reach near the ground in Miami.  Kids and even adults who had never seen snow flurries in their life, got to see them in person for the first time and were pretty excited.  A crazy thought for those of us that grew up pushing through waist deep snow drifts for half of every year.

 

 

 

[RFun]

Florida certainly has tropical areas according to the Koppen scale.  I guess it would depend on what kind of scale you would be using.  The plants don't really care.  They only know what they are able to adapt to.  So in these parts of Florida, that would include some tropical plants being a part of the mix.  Nature isn't so strict that we able to quantify things in a hard and fast manner according to strict numbers.  There's more nuance involved.