The Judean Date Palm

[rubyz]

For the relatively few of you who have expressed interest in the specimen of the revived Judean Date Palm cultivated from a nearly 2,000 year old seed, I am pleased to present a terse update.

    Firstly, the palm, now a bit over two years old, is reported to be healthy, viable and progressing slowly, but well. It is now over a meter in height and currently has seven fronds. This means that a total of nine fronds have appeared since germination, two having been removed for analytical purposes and two having appeared since the previous update. The palm has been repotted for the third time, an additional repotting since the last report. A decision has not yet been made concerning a permanent planting site.

    Dr. Solowey reports that the palm is somewhat small for its age, but sees this not as a sign of poor growth but rather as a possible characteristic of its species. She additionally reports that the angle at which the fronds project from the spine is unusually sharp, at approximately 45 degrees, which could possibly be an additional species trait. Furthermore, the central frond appears to be smaller than is typical of other types of p. dactylifera.

    The scientific paper, authored principally by Dr. Yuval Cohen, who has performed the DNA analysis, and Dr. Sarah Sallon, who is in charge of the project, has basically been completed and needs to undergo a further revision. It should be ready for submission to Science within a few weeks.

   In the meantime, I am very pleased to report that Dr. Sallon has succeeded in procuring additional seeds from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and has already transferred them to Dr. Solowey, who will attempt to get them to germinate. Dr. Solowey has promised to forward me the latest photos of the palm early next week, at which time I shall be happy to post them on the Forum. She was also kind enough to invite me to her research station to see and photograph the palm, and ask any further questions I might have.

    Therefore, if any of you have questions you would like me to pose to Dr. Solowey, you could post them on this thread, or send me a PM or an e-mail.

[mike453]

Hello Reuven,

Thanks for the update, are you going to be able to go and see the palm for yourself? I would definitely like to see a recent photo, maybe one with you standing next to it  I hope they have good luck germinating the additional seeds.

                         Regards, Mike

[ZoneTenNut]

Reuven,

Great news that they were able to procure addtl. seeds. Lets hope they are successful in getting some to germinate. Thanks for the update.

Roger

[Scott]

Thanks Reuven for the update. This palm is a treasure and hopefully we'll be able to see a come back of this palm.

I wonder what they looked like when mature. All I can think of is the CIDP. Thing their trunks were as stout?

[rubyz]

(mike453 @ Apr. 26 2007,20:21)

QUOTE

are you going to be able to go and see the palm for yourself? I would definitely like to see a recent photo, maybe one with you standing next to it  I hope they have good luck germinating the additional seeds.

                 

As I mentioned above, I was invited to see it, and I do not turn down these types of invitation.

    Dr. Solowey is not overly optimistic concerning the germination of the newly procured seeds, seeing that her success rate to date is one our of ten. However, we can hope for the best!

[rubyz]

(Scott @ Apr. 26 2007,20:59)

QUOTE

Thanks Reuven for the update. This palm is a treasure and hopefully we'll be able to see a come back of this palm.

Scott, I totally agree with you on this. It's a pity that so few of the members share your sentiments. Perhaps if this palm were native to Madagascar, many more would express an interest...

[elHoagie]

Thanks for the update!  Do you know if this species will sucker?  If so, I assume it should be possible to propogate even if none of the other seeds germinate??

[bgl]

Reuven,

Thanks for the update, and I can certainly understand your excitement! Keep us posted please.

I also saw your post in the other thread ("Borassus or Corypha in Madagascar") where you expressed your disappointment about lack of interest in this 2000 year old Phoenix. I believe you're probably very close to the truth in your post above. And this may not be a popular thing to admit (for all of us who did NOT respond to your comment/question in the other thread), but the fact is that a potentially new genus in Madagascar is going to attract MUCH more interest than another Phoenix species - even if it's 2000 years old! Let's face it - Phoenix palms aren't exactly in the top 20 for most of us who visit PalmTalk on a regular basis (and yes, I have to include myself in that group, even though we do have a number of Phoenix palms in our garden!).

Bo-Göran

[freekypalmguy]

Reuven,

Exciting news. Hopefully Dr. Soloway has great success with the new seeds. Looking forward to seeing the pics.

[rubyz]

(elHoagie @ Apr. 26 2007,23:36)

QUOTE

Do you know if this species will sucker?  If so, I assume it should be possible to propogate even if none of the other seeds germinate??

Just today, during my most recent phone conversation with Dr. Solowey, we discussed this very topic. She fully expects the palm to sucker, and also assumes tissue propagation of the species will occur - even if the plant turns out to be female and fruits.

[rubyz]

(bgl @ Apr. 27 2007,01:12)

QUOTE

Reuven,

Thanks for the update, and I can certainly understand your excitement! Keep us posted please.

I also saw your post in the other thread ("Borassus or Corypha in Madagascar") where you expressed your disappointment about lack of interest in this 2000 year old Phoenix. I believe you're probably very close to the truth in your post above. And this may not be a popular thing to admit (for all of us who did NOT respond to your comment/question in the other thread), but the fact is that a potentially new genus in Madagascar is going to attract MUCH more interest than another Phoenix species - even if it's 2000 years old! Let's face it - Phoenix palms aren't exactly in the top 20 for most of us who visit PalmTalk on a regular basis (and yes, I have to include myself in that group, even though we do have a number of Phoenix palms in our garden!).

Bo-Göran

Thank you, Bo-Goran, both for your informative comments and for having admitted you read my post on the other thread!

    While I fully understand your message and appreciate its content,  I think it is quite unfortunate that a forum of this size, nature and quality, supporting a healthy and colorful mix of palm enthusiasts, palm professionals and bona fide palm experts, does not profess a more catholic approach to revelations in palm research.

But I suppose I shouldn't complain, seeing that on the EPS forum, virtually no one will respond to a post which does not deal wilth one of the Trachies!

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Thanks very much for these updates Reuven. I am hopeful that this palm turns out to be a real treasure from the past. Part of the problem with people not responding to this subject is that there are people on other boards that have labeled this story a hoax and have said that there is no way that this could be true. This has probably made others, that are interested, reluctant to post about it lest they be seen as being pulled into a hoax.  If the DNA results turn out positive then I will bet you see lots more interest, even though these palms are not cold hardy for many around the world and would look very similar to others already growing. Now if it was found to be several degrees more cold hardy than other Phoenix then you would see an exploson of interest.

[rubyz]

(Jeff zone 8 N.C. @ Apr. 27 2007,03:21)

QUOTE

Part of the problem with people not responding to this subject is that there are people on other boards that have labeled this story a hoax and have said that there is no way that this could be true. This has probably made others, that are interested, reluctant to post about it lest they be seen as being pulled into a hoax.  If the DNA results turn out positive then I will bet you see lots more interest, even though these palms are not cold hardy for many around the world and would look very similar to others already growing. Now if it was found to be several degrees more cold hardy than other Phoenix then you would see an exploson of interest.

Well, Jeff, I do not believe this is the real problem, but the DNA analysis has proven that this is unquestionably no hoax. It was performed by Dr. Yuval Cohen, Israel's foremost expert in the DNA analysis of plants, at the Volcani Institute, which is the world's leading agricultural research facility.

The results, which will be published in their entirety in the scientific paper to be submitted shortly to Science,, will clearly show that the palm is unique. Furthermore, I have already reported in a previous post that an independent Swiss laboratory has confirmed the age of the seed by performing a radio-carbon dating of the seed coating.

    The true problem, as stated by Bo-Goran above, is that many members tend to be provincial in their tastes. Many  show interest only in species they can grow, while others tend to be "groupies" for the more prominent members.

[Carlo Morici]

There is another point. The big news is the ability to sprout after 2.000 years, but the palm itself is not going to shock the world, because it is just a date palm after all. An older cultivar of the date palm.

It is not a dinosaurus, it is just 2.000 years old and it is not going a species, most probably just a different older selection of Phoenix dactylifera. Just another kind of date, bigger, smaller, rounder, or most probably similar to some of the modern ones, hopefully shedding light on the history of the domestic dates.

Palm seeds are short-lived but other seeds last longer so the are already quite a few old crops rescued from the past and this will be one more. It is going to be the old dates from Israel: big news for Israel, but the rest of the world is rather startled by hearing about the abilty to sprout after two millennia, instead of losing viability after a few years as usual.

Also, I would not talk of low interest in the forum, I would say "low excitement". Most of the people on this forum are collectors, they seldom see the coconut as a crop or food, they seldom listen to pure science for too long, they seldom add another date cultivar to their collection! Most people are surely reading interestedly but very few are going to "sell their moms" to get a clone of the rescued palm.

Some questions: What DNA technique was applied? Which other palms were used for comparing? what is the goal?

Reuven, I like the story, thank you for posting all this information and keep us informed.

Carlo

[Alberto]

....I only can say i am very excited with the ´ressurection´ of this date palm cultivar!...Shalom haverim!

[RRONNIE]

Hey Alberto,

Shalom haver !

Where did you get it from (the language) ?

Do you know more ?

Ronnie

[rubyz]

(Carlo Morici @ Apr. 27 2007,14:01)

QUOTE

There is another point. The big news is the ability to sprout after 2.000 years, but the palm itself is not going to shock the world, because it is just a date palm after all. An older cultivar of the date palm.

Also, I would not talk of low interest in the forum, I would say "low excitement". Most of the people on this forum are collectors, they seldom see the coconut as a crop or food, they seldom listen to pure science for too long, they seldom add another date cultivar to their collection! Most people are surely reading interestedly but very few are going to "sell their moms" to get a clone of the rescued palm.

Some questions: What DNA technique was applied? Which other palms were used for comparing? what is the goal?

Carlo, thank you for having made a couple of very relevant points.

    Nevertheless, I think you are missing something vital: the Judean variety of p. dactylifera had been officially extinct for well over a thousand years, and possibly as long as 1, 900 years - so we are not only talking about the germination of a very old seed, which is, of course, of great interest in itself - but the reappearance of a variety which has not been extant for quite some time. So, IMHO, there is much more than a historical aspect to this project-  this is a significant first in the history of palm horticulture, as well as an important scientific achievement in general.

    The fact that the palm in question is a Judean variety undoubtedly has much sentimental value to Israelis, but the botanic implications of this accomplishment should hold interest for all palm enthusiasts.

    As per your question concerning the DNA technique applied: Dr. Yuval Cohen, who performed the analysis, has provided me only very sketchy data, explaining that he (as well as the other scientists involved in this project) does not wish to circulate information prior to the publication of the scientific paper which is now going through a final revision. Therefore, I can share only the following tidbits:

1. the material used for the analysis was a frond removed from the young seedling;

2. the DNA from this frond has an 87% dissimilarity to all extant varieties of p. dactylifera.

3. there is a 13% similarity to the DNA of an ancient Egyptian variety.

    As I have stated previously, I will be privy to a wealth of data once the article has been published.

[wendisplantation]

Personally I think it is awesome, no matter what the genera! I must have missed the other post or something, I would think there would be HUGE interest in this palm's germination and growth. I have been following this story since right after the germination, when I came across an article on the internet. I am fascinated by it, and I appreciate the update! Can't wait for the photos. I would love to have a clone or descendant of this plant. Even the rest of my family thinks it is awesome, and they are not terribly excited about any palms, really.

To bring back a plant that is extinct, especially in Nature's manner, is too cool!

Please express good wishes and luck to Dr. Solowey, and please keep up the updates!!!

Thank You

[Alicehunter2000]

It may as well be a dinosaur..........2000 years! Wow that is amazing. I really like date palms and do not understand why others don't. I would love to have a cultivar of this variety in a few years.

Come on people...........lets think of some good questions to ask. How bout this to start things off.

When do you think the dates/seed from this tree will be commercially available if successful propagation were to occur.

What edible qualities do you think the fruit will have......ie sugar content etc.

[The Germinator]

Reuven, I love this story. I always read the updates, I can't wait to see what the findings are. Thanks for the update.

When will they start popping up at Home Depot... I can't wait.

[Kris]

dear Rubyz  

iam a visual man,i need stills to understand so dumb & a tube light kind a person.so to visualise i need few photos of the

date palm in discussion. can you arrange some still of this

antique baby ?

and this work reminds of the movie jurassic park.the revival of

old species.if that palm comes through,then it can be considered to be palm of the biblical era ! isn't it ?

and Rubyz i praise you for the love and admiration you have for palms & for phoenix Sp in perticular.

since iam a die hard fan of the Phoenix Sp and cactus..

since your post on this topic did not have visuals so we

could not comment on this topic much...so do'nt feel let

down.

Thanks & Love,

Kris  

[rubyz]

(wendisplantation @ Apr. 28 2007,06:31)

QUOTE

I would love to have a clone or descendant of this plant.

Please express good wishes and luck to Dr. Solowey, and please keep up the updates!!!

Wendi, you'll have to stand at the back of the line!

I couldn't imagine any plant lover who wouldn't want one of these. ::

As for the updates, well, your kind of enthusiasm is all the inspiration and impetus I need for posting updates!

[rubyz]

(Alicehunter2000 @ Apr. 28 2007,07:38)

QUOTE

Come on people...........lets think of some good questions to ask. How bout this to start things off.

When do you think the dates/seed from this tree will be commercially available if successful propagation were to occur.

What edible qualities do you think the fruit will have......ie sugar content etc.

David, these are among the many questions I've already posed to Dr. Solowey.

    While she tends to shy away from the marketing aspects of the propagation, she is quite interested in the medicinal/nutritional side of the picture. Nevertheless, she prefers not to speculate about these characteristics.

    I, however, am happy to point out that the Judean date was quite prized for its taste throughout the Roman Empire, so if this specimen is a female, or if Dr. Solowey succeeds in germinating a female, we stand a good chance of being able to decide for ourselves.

[RRONNIE]

Ruven Shalom,

At last - Finally - Sof Sof - Lebasof ...........

Ronnie

[rubyz]

(krisachar @ Apr. 28 2007,10:11)

QUOTE

iam a visual man,i need stills to understand so dumb & a tube light kind a person.so to visualise i need few photos of the

date palm in discussion. can you arrange some still of this

antique baby ?

Dear Kris,

I have already posted pics of the palm, both as a seedling and as a nearly two year old plant. These were posted in a previous update series. If this forum has a search function, perhaps you could find them by typing in "Judean Date Palm." If not, you can send me your e-mail address in a PM, and I'll be happy to forward you these pics.

    As I mentioned above, I should be getting the most recent pics of the palm early next week, at which time I will surely post them on the Forum.

[RRONNIE]

Ruven, for our dear Kris convenience...

This is the palm when it was a young sapling

[RRONNIE]

And

Metushelah in January 2007

[RRONNIE]

And last...

[tikitiki]

It is not a lack of interest for me it is a lack of info. I have read all of your post and have responded to just this one. Put the info out here because you want to educate those that want to learn about this palm and to spark interest in others, not for self validation from the group. I'm sure that there are many that do not care but try to excite them not offend them. I will read all your post and respond to few because I'm learning before I ask or post. Don't think your post are going to waste. There is a group of us that are learning from them. One quick question, Have they done any DNA analysis with other products made from this date palm verifying the use of this palm in everyday life out side of its commercial and life supporting roles?

[Tad]

why did it go extinct the first time?

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Rueven,

This is such a cool topic, thanks for bringing it to the forum...  Please keep us updated!  I am always eager to read the threads about this palm!  I would also be interested in seeing the article from "Science" posted here.

Bill

[rubyz]

(RRONNIE @ Apr. 28 2007,13:20)

QUOTE

Ruven, for our dear Kris convenience...

Thanks, Ronnie, for posting these pics.

[rubyz]

(PiousPalms @ Apr. 28 2007,15:45)

QUOTE

 I would also be interested in seeing the article from "Science" posted here.

Bill, I'm not sure I'd be allowed to do that, what with copyright laws and all that. I wouldn't want to cause the IPS any trouble in the form of a lawsuit. I will, however, be happy to ask the editors of Science for permission to reproduce the article here.

[rubyz]

(tikitiki @ Apr. 28 2007,15:04)

QUOTE

It is not a lack of interest for me it is a lack of info. I have read all of your post and have responded to just this one. Put the info out here because you want to educate those that want to learn about this palm and to spark interest in others, not for self validation from the group. I'm sure that there are many that do not care but try to excite them not offend them. I will read all your post and respond to few because I'm learning before I ask or post. Don't think your post are going to waste. There is a group of us that are learning from them. One quick question, Have they done any DNA analysis with other products made from this date palm verifying the use of this palm in everyday life out side of its commercial and life supporting roles?

Tom, I never post anything for "self validation from the group." I have gladly and unreservedly posted all the information I have been given as I have obtained it. As I have previously explained, the researchers do not want to give out a lot of data prior to the publication of the scientific article, since they fear that too much publicity around the palm (a media circus) might harm chances of publication. So, please feel assured I have not been holding back any data.

Concerning your excellent question, I am not aware of any DNA analysis of ancient palm products produced during the period of the Judean and or/ Israel monarchies. I personally believe it is quite safe to assume that all Jews at this time constructed huts called sukkot out of date palms, since the Bible contains God's commandment to perform this construction annually for the festival of Sukkot. This is to commemorate the temporary living conditions the Jews had to endure during their 40 years of wandering in the wilderness prior to their entry into the Land of Israel. Many Jews still construct these huts for either religious or traditional reasons. At any rate, it is highly doubtful that such a hut from ancient times could be found, seeing that they were built as temporary housing and dismantled following each yearly festival.

[surgeon83]

Mine wasn't much bigger than that when it started suckering.  It was in full sun though.  Once some suckers are produced, some of them should be tried in the ground so they can mature.  After I put my 2-foot-tall dactylifera in the ground, its leaves were 6 feet tall after just one year.

[rubyz]

(palmotrafficante @ Apr. 28 2007,15:35)

QUOTE

why did it go extinct the first time?

I explained this in one of the earlier updates, but I'll be glad to do so once again.

    The Judean Date Palm was abudant in ancient Israel  (to the point that there were vast forests of this palm) up to the end of the Roman-Jewish War. In fact, the Jews were an instrumental party in the commercial production of this date, since the Romans were anxious to export it to all parts of their empire due to the date's reported excellence.

    As one of the punishments for rebelling, the Jews (who were not executed, enslaved or banished) were no longer permitted to propagate the palm; in fact, the Romans systematically destroyed all the male specimens they could locate. This documented punishment was standard for any nation or city which refused to cooperate with the Romans. It is also quite possible that the Romans additionally plowed salt into the soil, rendering the land useless for cultivating any kind of plant life whatsoever; this was another common punishment for non-cooperation. At any rate, the combination of intentional destruction and compulsory neglect inevitably led to the extinction of this palm variety.

    It should be noted that there are wild, uncultivated specimens of p. dactylifera growing in isolated parts of the Negev Desert in southern Israel, but to date, no DNA analyses have been performed, so it is not yet known if these specimens bear any genetic similarity to the revived Judean specimen. Dr. Solowey suspects that even if these wild specimens were decended from the Judean Date, cross breeding (through air pollination) and mutations would have vastly changed the genetic structure by now. Nevertheless, she is quite anxious to have an analysis performed, although this is being stymied by lack of funds.

[Kris]

Dear Folks  

thanks Very much to shed some light for this lay man  

you both are the charm of our forum,very fast & energetic too..

i like that quality in human beings ! since its only seen amoung

ants & bees.

lots of love to you both..

Kris  

[Carlo Morici]

Wonderful information and pictures! Thank you for all. I understand the silence preceding the scientific publication. Let's wait.

I have to add that your story of the Roman-Jewish war is one of various versions tought in different schools of the world. In Italy we heard the "Roman" point of view.

As for salt, the Romans would never plow-in salt on large extension because it was too costly in terms of time and work.

It is also sad to learn about the complained lack of funding.   Even for a research like this, about a palm of popular interest! The Israelian government does not want to "save" the palm?

I would love to see pictures of the populations of wild dates in So. Israel. Please go and get some images for us!

Carlo

[Zac in NC]

Thanks for the update. I can't wait to see more pics.

Zac

[rubyz]

(Carlo Morici @ Apr. 28 2007,23:15)

QUOTE

I have to add that your story of the Roman-Jewish war is one of various versions tought in different schools of the world. In Italy we heard the "Roman" point of view.

As for salt, the Romans would never plow-in salt on large extension because it was too costly in terms of time and work.

It is also sad to learn about the complained lack of funding.   Even for a research like this, about a palm of popular interest! The Israelian government does not want to "save" the palm?

I would love to see pictures of the populations of wild dates in So. Israel. Please go and get some images for us!

Thank you, Carlo.

    Firstly, what you said about the salt makes a lot of sense; salt was definitely a very expensive item.

    As for pics of the wild p. dactylifera, I have two shots of them which are published in a book given to me, and authored by, a local Date Palm expert, but they are of rather poor quality and not worthwhile scanning. I will ask Dr. Solowey if she has some better pics. She may very well, since she has replanted one of the wild specimens in her private garden!

    Thirdly, the Israeli government, like your own, is a coalition government - and that means it is chiefly concerned with perpetuating its ineffective administration. That, plus the unfortunate fact that our economy has always been in a tenuous situation, means that extraodinary budgeting occurs only when the nation's security necessitates it, or when it is politically advantageous to do so. Sadly, funding the Judean Date project incurs no political benefits.  Although Israel was founded basically as a socialist state, the last thirty years has seen a significant shift toward privatization, so the government no longer directly controls scientific projects, unless national security is involved. True, there are, of course, individuals in the government who would love to facilitate this research, but individuals do not make policy. So, in the end, all monies used to support the project come from private sources, namely, grants and donations.

    An example of the funding problem was the radio-carbon dating of the seed coating, which needed to be performed outside Israel for the sake of objectivity. Whereas Dr. Solowey's activities are financed by her kibbutz (cooperative farm), which is a self-sustaining economic entity, the dating process, performed by an independent Swiss institute, was far too expensive, and had to be funded from Dr. Sallon's budget at the Hadassah Research Center in Jerusalem.

I hope this sheds some light on the situation here.