Canopy Examples?

[PalmTreeDude]

Does anyone have any good examples of a good canopy for growing less cold tolerant palms in your area? If it is yours, does it work well? 

[Josh-O]

great Idea for a thread topic!

I'm eager to see some good posts here.

[Jdiaz31089]

This will be a great thread! I will get a picture of my canopy area to post. I have my tender palms underneath a decades-old myrtle and magnolia. They're both deciduous, but the thick branching overhead offers decent protection.

My neighbor has a MASSIVE camphor tree that I would kill to be able to garden under :))

[RedRabbit]

Oaks are basically the default choice around here since they're so numerous. Personally, I'm partial to some species of ficus though they're not terribly cold tolerant either.  

[PalmTreeDude]

18 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Oaks are basically the default choice around here since they're so numerous. Personally, I'm partial to some species of ficus though they're not terribly cold tolerant either.  

Oaks do work well! I know that! They look nice too. 

[Jubaea]

I planted some small(12") Hedyscepe and Howea belmoreana (under 6") under some Archontophoenix cunninghamiana.  Hopefully they will do well this winter.  They did take the 105f we had this summer without too much damage.

[Steve Mac]

I'm surprised that less cold tolerant palms would be protected much by a deciduous tree, we put our sun sensitive ones under our Japanese Maple.

And cold intolerant ones under tree ferns (Cyathea cooperi are good) and under other tough palms and under a Lilly Pilly - Syzygium.

I layed on the ground for all of these shots (plant's eye view). It is just on dusk and the garden lights just came on in the maple. 

      C. cooperi

 

Dicksonia and Cyathea robusta

Lilly Pilly.

[Josh-O]

7 hours ago, gtsteve said:

I'm surprised that less cold tolerant palms would be protected much by a deciduous tree, we put our sun sensitive ones under our Japanese Maple.

And cold intolerant ones under tree ferns (Cyathea cooperi are good) and under other tough palms and under a Lilly Pilly - Syzygium.

I layed on the ground for all of these shots (plant's eye view). It is just on dusk and the garden lights just came on in the maple. 

      C. cooperi

 

Dicksonia and Cyathea robusta

Lilly Pilly.

Dang!,I wish I had some canopy like that

[Pando]

Overly thick canopy isn't that great in this climate, mainly because we don't have the tropical humid warmth in winter. Portion of my yard is in a permanent shadow of my neighbor's trees. While it's great in warmer days, I don't have enough heat in that part of the yard. There is also some horrendous invasive fine roots that get into everything (into pots, etc). Not sure where they're coming from, probably from the neighbor's carrotwood tree (Cupaniopsis anacardioides).

Looks like Rhopie and Hedy is doing great but I've lost others that long for the sun. Bad thing is that under that kind of shadow it's wet and cold in winter, not a good combination.

I do have two jacarandas that are not as thick, and they shed leaves in winter, so some sun is getting through.

[Tracy]

16 hours ago, Pando said:

Looks like Rhopie and Hedy is doing great but I've lost others that long for the sun. Bad thing is that under that kind of shadow it's wet and cold in winter, not a good combination.

I do have two jacarandas that are not as thick, and they shed leaves in winter, so some sun is getting through.

 Good point Ando.  I have a couple of trees which were deciduous in my Carlsbad garden, and the one that was winter deciduous did exactly what I wanted.  The foliage provided some shade in summer and early autumn for plants that couldn't endure full day sun, yet during the shorter days of winter, allowed some heat from the sun to get in.  Spring was always challenging to see if the tree would regain foliage in time to provide protection on the hotter days, but that is also the "marine layer" season living close to the coast, which provides shielding.  The canopy seemed to only help a little to keep heat from escaping on cold clear nights, but that may be because I didn't have enough canopy.  No canopy in Leucadia yet, only a little bit of shade from palms for my orchids.

[DoomsDave]

Canopy!

Ah, would that it wrere be like the ideal drug which cures your ill, while lacking in bad side effects.

Alas, tis' not. Alas.

The huge problem with many dicot trees that make good canopy is that they also have roots that invade everything. Some are particularly bad: ash (Fraxinus); willow (salix); poplar (populus); and Ficus.

Run. Screaming.

Others which are less bad, include some maples (Acer); and elms (Ulmus); carrotwood (Cupania); some eucalyptus; some acacias. (Just run.)

All of them will send roots up into potted plants. You'll think they're thriving and rooting in but instead they're being robbed under your nose. That's what happened with the Tree of Mixed Blessings, a large ash in El Screamo. It dropped all of its leaves for a month, and large limbs the rest of the year. (One of the large limbs was nearly 1 M; 3 feet across.)

California live oaks have a big leaf drop in March, and they play host to Oak Root Fungus, which, while it won't hurt palms (that I know of) can raise holy hell with other plants.

Jacaranda and Albizzia ("mimosa") as well as some Cassias are much better. They're not nearly as aggressive, they're smaller and they don't engulf everything. Jacaranda and Albizzia are deciduous, which can work well because it won't keep the area under them dank and cold in the winter. Another good alternative is Crepe Myrtle (Lagerstromea indica) though they're small and slower growing.

 

[Pando]

55 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

All of them will send roots up into potted plants. You'll think they're thriving and rooting in but instead they're being robbed under your nose.

Yup, exactly. And to think what they do to that prized palm that was so carefully planted in a hole with rich amended soil and all. A few months later all is left around the palm is a sterile soil containing a mass of dead roots that will no longer absorb and hold any water. The only recourse is to keep mulching heavily, which will be invaded by this mass of foreign roots within a week or two.

Running around screaming...

[DoomsDave]

1 minute ago, Pando said:

Yup, exactly. And to think what they do to that prized palm that was so carefully planted in a hole with rich amended soil and all. A few months later all is left around the palm is a sterile soil containing a mass of dead roots that will no longer absorb and hold any water. The only recourse is to keep mulching heavily, which will be invaded by this mass of foreign roots within a week or two.

Running around screaming...

Sir Walter would agree that a chain saw is the best medicine, followed by some stump killer. Cures the ill, though if the tree is your neighbor's, there could be legal fallout.

If the neighbor confides to you that he finds the tree to be a pain in the ass, maybe volunteer to remove it for him, even take the wood . . .

It appears that the Cupania is the real bad actor, though Jacks ain't saints, either.

 

[PalmatierMeg]

At one time my back yard canopy was made up of my seven huge and bodacious queens, as well as my Washy. But - yeah, beat that dead horse - all are dead of fusarium wilt. But they lasted long enough to let my piccabeens, Kentiopsis oliviformis, Veitchias and Chambeyronias grow tall enough to take over the task.

I tried to find a photo of my queens at their peak, but it must have been lost during a computer crash. Instead, I have this blast from the past taken in Jan. 2009 when I was planning my future world's-smallest-jungle. I'd been a member of PT & IPS one year and had spent much of that time researching possible candidates for jungledom. Unfortunately, I lost most of those species during the record cold of 2010 and had to start over. But even in 2009 I planned to use my queens as protective canopy. If I had tried planting dicot trees on our small lot, there would have been no room for palms and the invasive roots would have endangered our home foundation. The dicots had to wait until we acquired our garden lot in 2011.

Queen canopy, Cape Coral, FL: Jan. 2009

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

The huge problem with many dicot trees that make good canopy is that they also have roots that invade everything.

 

25 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

At one time my back yard canopy was made up of my seven huge and bodacious queens, as well as my Washy.

In the new garden, I'm not using dicot trees for shade canopy.  I'm mirroring Meg's approach with Archontophoenix in one area, banana in a couple of other area's and then hoping that some palms will just share the burden with some getting am exposure and others that receive that am shelter will in turn do their part in the pm.  MattyB suggested the banana's to me as a temporary shade for palms that can grow into more sun, and they are relatively easy to remove when the time is right.  Below: 1) banana giving pm shade to a Burretiokentia hapala 2) Archontophoenix provide mid-day and pm shade for Orchids, Zamia's and Ceratozamia's.

 

[DoomsDave]

Archontophoenix have been great canopy for me.

But, I offer a few lessons, if interested.

ARCHIES

Too much of a good thing can be wonderful, but isn't always. Archie canopy is an example of the latter. Too many trunks, too little else can grow in the ground beneath, though seedlings in pots thrive.  I have a part of the yard where the Archies are spaced about 6 - 8 feet (3 - 3.66 M) apart, or less. It gives a hushed quality, but it can smother too.

Other parts of the garden have the Archies planted more like 10 - 15 feet (3.3 - 5 M) apart, which is much better. Other plants appreciate the shelter, but don't gasp and give up. The Archies themselves are also a lot prettier and happier with more room.

QUEENS

They can be bodacious canopy palms, for sure. They're tough, they're big and they're fast. The trunks are thick, and very very tough. (Kings are spongy inside.) They also have seriously greedy roots. Plant too many queens too close together (<20 feet 6.66 M) apart and they suck the soil dry. Ivy has trouble growing, along with Lantana. Spurge, purslane and other weeds gasp and give up. When that's the case, you have a tough environment. Which is sometimes what you want. For a parking strip or picnic area, queens on 20 foot centers will give great shade, and discourage weeds. Lawns won't be as good, but people don't live by lawn alone. (Slap any morons who pencil-trim the poor queens! )

The greedy problem can be ameliorated by plenty of extra water. If it's rain, great. If not, bigger checks to the water company.

OTHERS

Other fast growing palms could be used as canopy in unique environments. Dypsis decaryi give you a cathedral like arched look in a dry place. Pritchardtias, in a moister place. Parajubes, too, though they make thin shade. But they root deep, unlike queens. Bizzies, of course. Caryotas! Glory, till they die. Especially C. gigas/obtusa. Coconuts! In the right place. If you don't mind the wait, some Phoenix rupicola, or Beccariophoenix alfredii, though it might be too long.

Hope this helps.

[Jdiaz31089]

Here is my canopy. Until my king palm and syagrus (coconut queen) grow up, I'll be relying on overhead protection from an old myrtle & deciduous magnolia. I have some chamaedoreas and raphis that enjoy the overhead protection. I can grow cymbidiums in this area too.

[Jdiaz31089]

Eventually this coco queen will provide a nice canopy.

 

Notice the MASSIVE camphor tree in the neighbor's yard.  that tree is two back yards away. It's trunk is directly behind the palm's foliage. I'd love to have that as a canopy!

[PalmTreeDude]

Nice examples!

[PalmTreeDude]

I wonder how well a pine canopy would do?

Edited November 23, 2016 by PalmTreeDude

[iwan]

Deodar Cedar and Schinus molle provide good canopy for my Jubaeopsis.  I shear the Schinus foliage in the spring and by fall it has almost covered the Jubaeopsis again, but still provides some southern exposure.  Even if the Schinus gets freeze damage in a serious freeze, the dead foliage remains, still providing canopy. 

The palms on the other hand make great canopy for Cacti and succulents since they are evergreen and create almost no litter.

 

[Palmaceae]

I did not have any canopy when I moved into our house, actually had nothing in the yard except weeds. Here is a picture of the first year of plantings in the garden, then what it looks like currently. I have a lot of canopy now, almost too much!

 

[kirkhutch]

4 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

I did not have any canopy when I moved into our house, actually had nothing in the yard except weeds. Here is a picture of the first year of plantings in the garden, then what it looks like currently. I have a lot of canopy now, almost too much!

 

What is the knobby tree in the second pic?

[Palmaceae]

 

12 minutes ago, kirkhutch said:

What is the knobby tree in the second pic?

That is a Kapok tree (Ceiba pentandra), it will get very big eventually.

[Alan_Tampa]

That Ceiba will get big way before eventually. In 5 years it will be a monster. Certain it is C. pentandra? Not Bombax ceiba?

Edited November 25, 2016 by Alan_Tampa

[annafl]

Or it could be Ceiba speciosa (the Floss Silk tree).  The nice things about the Ceibas is that they are deciduous, so they give shifting shade in summer, and no cover (or little cover when mature) in winter when more sun is appreciated.  Don't know if he gets frost there, it would depend on how close to the coast in Cape Coral, I guess.

[Palmaceae]

17 minutes ago, annafl said:

Or it could be Ceiba speciosa (the Floss Silk tree).  The nice things about the Ceibas is that they are deciduous, so they give shifting shade in summer, and no cover (or little cover when mature) in winter when more sun is appreciated.  Don't know if he gets frost there, it would depend on how close to the coast in Cape Coral, I guess.

Pretty sure it is a Ceiba, (not sure how to tell is it is indeed a pentandra, it was marked as such) it is deciduous. We do get frost here at times, we are considered zone 10a. But there are a lot more canopy palms and trees in that area of the garden so I am getting more protected from frost, a lot more now than 2 1/2 years ago when I had no canopy.

[DoomsDave]

23 hours ago, Alan_Tampa said:

That Ceiba will get big way before eventually. In 5 years it will be a monster. Certain it is C. pentandra? Not Bombax ceiba?

 

23 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

Pretty sure it is a Ceiba, (not sure how to tell is it is indeed a pentandra, it was marked as such) it is deciduous. We do get frost here at times, we are considered zone 10a. But there are a lot more canopy palms and trees in that area of the garden so I am getting more protected from frost, a lot more now than 2 1/2 years ago when I had no canopy.

 

23 hours ago, annafl said:

Or it could be Ceiba speciosa (the Floss Silk tree).  The nice things about the Ceibas is that they are deciduous, so they give shifting shade in summer, and no cover (or little cover when mature) in winter when more sun is appreciated.  Don't know if he gets frost there, it would depend on how close to the coast in Cape Coral, I guess.

Run!

Screaming!

8 feet across the trunk. Massive roots, massive leaf and blossom fall.

Gorgeous tree, but, well, as Nancy Reagan used to say in another context, "Just say no."

[DoomsDave]

Archies close together. There's also a bunch of Chambeys, too, a double canopy. Even without the Chambeys, there's still too many. Chain saw, alas.

Further apart. Much better, in my opinion.

[DoomsDave]

Oh

my gahd

How about teddy bears? Dypsis leptcheiolos! The ones in the pictures are too close; mabye more like 10 - 15 foot (3.3  - 5 M)  centers?

I've got a few in pots . . . . Rnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

[iwan]

On 11/23/2016, 10:00:52, iwan said:

Deodar Cedar and Schinus molle provide good canopy for my Jubaeopsis.  I shear the Schinus foliage in the spring and by fall it has almost covered the Jubaeopsis again, but still provides some southern exposure.  Even if the Schinus gets freeze damage in a serious freeze, the dead foliage remains, still providing canopy. 

The palms on the other hand make great canopy for Cacti and succulents since they are evergreen and create almost no litter.

 

Partial canopy provided by Deodar Cedar was useless.  The Jubaeopsis under the Schinus molle has minimal damage (so far).  Will take updated pictures once all fear of frost is past and the Schinus is pruned.  http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/3169-jubeopsis-caffra/&do=findComment&comment=839298

[IBGraham]

I recommend giant timber bamboo if you are in a rush. Grows very fast and is dense. However, cleaning up bamboo leaves is a bit of a bummer. One of the nice things about giant timber bamboo is its not an aggressive bamboo with massive runners so it will stay MOSTLY contained and they are super easy to cut down and create space for new palms.  Also timber bamboo keeps a nice tropical feel. I'm also currently trying a Jacaranda tree. it grows fast and still has a nice tropical/ subtropical look and does well in zone 9b and up.