Cold damage already!

[Palmaceae]

My mom lives about 3 miles NE of me in North Ft Myers. I planted a couple coconut palms last year and they get watered at times and fertilized, but not taken care of very well as she is not in great health. We had some cool weather last week and I got down in the mid 40's but today I was at my mom's house and I looked at the coconuts and wow, they got really hit by the cold. Even though she is just a few miles from me, there was a big difference in temps. It also shows if you do not take care of tender palms, they will get damaged at a much higher temp than normal.

As a comparson I had zero cold damage in my garden.

 

[Xerarch]

Wow, that's substantial, would be really curious to know what her low was and if she is sitting in a cold air pocket or something. 

[RedRabbit]

I recorded 41f last week and the coconuts around here didn't take any damage. Perhaps it was in the 30s there? 

[GottmitAlex]

What cultivar variety are those coconuts?

 

[Palmaceae]

7 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

What cultivar variety are those coconuts?

 

They are both green malayans.

[Palmaceae]

1 hour ago, Xerarch said:

Wow, that's substantial, would be really curious to know what her low was and if she is sitting in a cold air pocket or something. 

Could be, and it has been dry here, well below normal rainfall.

[Palmaceae]

1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

I recorded 41f last week and the coconuts around here didn't take any damage. Perhaps it was in the 30s there? 

Probably hit the uppers 30's, plus I am sure they have not had sufficient water either.

[PalmTreeDude]

Dang, I have a Coconut IN A POT up here in Virginia and it got down to 38 Degrees F outside one night and it took zero damage. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by PalmTreeDude

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

We had lows around 38-40 and I didn't notice damage...yet.  But there was frost just south of Lake Wales that toasted the leaves on copper plants...I was rather shocked, but it's not unprecedented.  Dang dry here though.  No rain since Oct 9th.  That's a long time when you garden on an ancient beach.  Everything is drought stressed here.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

8 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

My mom lives about 3 miles NE of me in North Ft Myers. I planted a couple coconut palms last year and they get watered at times and fertilized, but not taken care of very well as she is not in great health. We had some cool weather last week and I got down in the mid 40's but today I was at my mom's house and I looked at the coconuts and wow, they got really hit by the cold. Even though she is just a few miles from me, there was a big difference in temps. It also shows if you do not take care of tender palms, they will get damaged at a much higher temp than normal.

As a comparson I had zero cold damage in my garden.

 

Randy,

You're not the only one.  I have 8 coconut palms in the ground, and all my Malayans came through the cold front just fine, but my Yellow Malayan is really yellowing (probably a nutritional deficiency).  It's my Maypan that has been growing like a weed and appears very healthy that got a little cold damage.  The front came through here Friday before last and dropped the temps in my yard to probably about 48F or 49F, which shouldn't have affected even the most cold sensitive coconut varieties, but it sure nipped my Maypan, which is about 6.5ft. tall.  It has a few lateral brown strips going down the leaflets on some of the new leaves, while my little Golden Malayan and little Panama Tall adjacent to it had no cold injury at all.  Go figure.  The really ironic thing is that in January of this year when I planted it (we had a VERY mild winter last winter, which is why I couldn't wait and planted 3 coconut palms in the ground), it got exposed to the one and only frost we had just 10 days after I planted it, and when it was less than half the size it is now, and wasn't even nipped, even though the temp dropped down to 33.6F!  I will try to post a photo or two of it tomorrow.  I didn't think any variety of coconut palm would even show the least bit of cold injury until at least the mid to upper 30's, but 48F or 49F?  I was out of town that weekend, and at my brother in law's house in Navasota where I was staying (northwest of Houston) it probably got down to about 30F or 31F.  He has a neighbor who lives nearby who's yard dropped down to 29F.  But here on the South Texas coast, it didn't get anywhere near that low and within a couple of days we were back in the upper 70's to near 80F.

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

By the way, I have kept all my coconut palms well fertilized and well watered, so it shouldn't be from either of those reasons why my Maypan got nipped by the cold.

[RedRabbit]

6 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

Probably hit the uppers 30's, plus I am sure they have not had sufficient water either.

Where you are in the Cape really does make a big difference apparently. If they already have damage this time of year it sure doesn't bode well for them long term, I think you're going need to give them a lot of protection... Or, move them to your property and plant a couple B. alfredii's in their place.  

[Palmaceae]

21 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Where you are in the Cape really does make a big difference apparently. If they already have damage this time of year it sure doesn't bode well for them long term, I think you're going need to give them a lot of protection... Or, move them to your property and plant a couple B. alfredii's in their place.  

Yes it makes a huge difference. I am in the NE Cape, and Meg (PalmatierMeg) lives in the mid Cape and she is also a couple degrees warmer than me. My mom is a few miles NE of me, where these pictures were taken and must be a few degrees colder.  

Even though last year these same palms had very little damage, if any. So not just certain areas are warmer or colder, but also different cold events are usually never exactly the same..

[Palmaceae]

21 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Randy,

You're not the only one.  I have 8 coconut palms in the ground, and all my Malayans came through the cold front just fine, but my Yellow Malayan is really yellowing (probably a nutritional deficiency).  It's my Maypan that has been growing like a weed and appears very healthy that got a little cold damage.  The front came through here Friday before last and dropped the temps in my yard to probably about 48F or 49F, which shouldn't have affected even the most cold sensitive coconut varieties, but it sure nipped my Maypan, which is about 6.5ft. tall.  It has a few lateral brown strips going down the leaflets on some of the new leaves, while my little Golden Malayan and little Panama Tall adjacent to it had no cold injury at all.  Go figure.  The really ironic thing is that in January of this year when I planted it (we had a VERY mild winter last winter, which is why I couldn't wait and planted 3 coconut palms in the ground), it got exposed to the one and only frost we had just 10 days after I planted it, and when it was less than half the size it is now, and wasn't even nipped, even though the temp dropped down to 33.6F!  I will try to post a photo or two of it tomorrow.  I didn't think any variety of coconut palm would even show the least bit of cold injury until at least the mid to upper 30's, but 48F or 49F?  I was out of town that weekend, and at my brother in law's house in Navasota where I was staying (northwest of Houston) it probably got down to about 30F or 31F.  He has a neighbor who lives nearby who's yard dropped down to 29F.  But here on the South Texas coast, it didn't get anywhere near that low and within a couple of days we were back in the upper 70's to near 80F.

John

Thanks John,

It is amazing that they get damaged at a temperature above freezing, but every since I grow coconuts all the way back in the 80's in central Florida I became an expert on cold damage on coconuts .  Every cold event is different and it affects the palms differently each time.  But when I saw my moms palms, I was quite shocked of the extent of the damage.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

30 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

Thanks John,

It is amazing that they get damaged at a temperature above freezing, but every since I grow coconuts all the way back in the 80's in central Florida I became an expert on cold damage on coconuts .  Every cold event is different and it affects the palms differently each time.  But when I saw my moms palms, I was quite shocked of the extent of the damage.

Randy,

I am truly baffled by the cold injury on my Maypan.  Here are three photos of it.  It manifested itself as the brown streaks just like on your mother's palms.  Sometimes, as I am sure you know, cold injury can manifest itself as pinpoint spots in the tips of the leaves, but I have usually seen this associated with frostbite injury, which I think can also cause the brown streaking too.  What is really weird in the case of my palm is that the lowest it got down to was probably no lower than 48F or 49F at my place (I was out of town last weekend, but at the airport, which is about 20 miles inland from me, it only got down to 43F, and my place this time of year usually runs about 4F to 6F warmer for the overnight lows than the airport.).  Cold injury shouldn't even begin to manifest itself on a  Maypan until about 33F or lower, especially one the size mine is.   What makes the situation even weirder is that none of my other coconut palms seem to have any cold injury, including my much younger and smaller ones, and my less cold hardy varieties.

 

John

 

 

[GottmitAlex]

21 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Where you are in the Cape really does make a big difference apparently. If they already have damage this time of year it sure doesn't bode well for them long term, I think you're going need to give them a lot of protection... Or, move them to your property and plant a couple B. alfredii's in their place.  

But what a dwarf Malayan cocos nucifera takes to grow it takes 3 times (at least)  for an Alfredii.

If it is Cape Coral, I would plant more cocos nucifera there. That area still is officially coconut country.

 

[RR soFLA]

That extent of damage is surprising to see, especially since we’re just entering the cooler season. On Pine Island  we got down to the low 50’s and bottomed at 50 on the  two coolest nights last week. I was also concerned to find spotting on two of my young(48in high) talls, and one Red Spicata I had planted over the summer. The two affected talls are sprouted from local nuts as well, luckily there was no damage to any of my other cocos. It was a sharp early season front and tender plants may have not been hardened off enough. I’m still getting used to the 10a S.W. Florida climate since moving from 10b Ft. Lauderdale. With no direct onshore fetch from the Atlantic nighttime lows run lower here and cold front recovery is slower. Cold and drought sensitivity can also vary among similar cultivars of coconuts.

[Palmaceae]

10 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

 

Randy,

I am truly baffled by the cold injury on my Maypan.  Here are three photos of it.  It manifested itself as the brown streaks just like on your mother's palms.  Sometimes, as I am sure you know, cold injury can manifest itself as pinpoint spots in the tips of the leaves, but I have usually seen this associated with frostbite injury, which I think can also cause the brown streaking too.  What is really weird in the case of my palm is that the lowest it got down to was probably no lower than 48F or 49F at my place (I was out of town last weekend, but at the airport, which is about 20 miles inland from me, it only got down to 43F, and my place this time of year usually runs about 4F to 6F warmer for the overnight lows than the airport.).  Cold injury shouldn't even begin to manifest itself on a  Maypan until about 33F or lower, especially one the size mine is.   What makes the situation even weirder is that none of my other coconut palms seem to have any cold injury, including my much younger and smaller ones, and my less cold hardy varieties.

 

John

 

 

John,  I see that type of damage every year on my coconut palms, even in Cape Coral. We see the 40's a couple times at least here and always see some spotting. I have not seen any this year on mine but I am sure I will. 

[Palmaceae]

10 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

But what a dwarf Malayan cocos nucifera takes to grow it takes 3 times (at least)  for an Alfredii.

If it is Cape Coral, I would plant more cocos nucifera there. That area still is officially coconut country.

 

Yes we are definitely coconut country here, that is why I have 13 of them in my garden!  

[Palmaceae]

8 hours ago, RR soFLA said:

That extent of damage is surprising to see, especially since we’re just entering the cooler season. On Pine Island  we got down to the low 50’s and bottomed at 50 on the  two coolest nights last week. I was also concerned to find spotting on two of my young(48in high) talls, and one Red Spicata I had planted over the summer. The two affected talls are sprouted from local nuts as well, luckily there was no damage to any of my other cocos. It was a sharp early season front and tender plants may have not been hardened off enough. I’m still getting used to the 10a S.W. Florida climate since moving from 10b Ft. Lauderdale. With no direct onshore fetch from the Atlantic nighttime lows run lower here and cold front recovery is slower. Cold and drought sensitivity can also vary among similar cultivars of coconuts.

It was surprising to see this much damage, all I can think of is that they were dry and that helped with the damage. My mom says she waters them but she has not been in the greatest of health so I would rather her not do much work in her little garden.

Even though I live only a few miles SE of her, I do not see any damage on my palms but mine are well watered and fed.

[SubTropicRay]

I agree the recent 10+ week stretch without rain does not help.  That and the first significant cold spell always has an effect on plants that have been accustomed to warmth.  Call it temperature shock.  The same front 2 months from now would have had little effect on the same plant..

[PalmatierMeg]

Randy, NFM is significantly colder than Cape Coral. If she is east of US 41, she is colder yet; east of I75 she may be outside of coconut range. About a week ago I got down to 49.2 and 49.8. Coconuts can show cold damage even in the 40s, esp. if wind is howling. I also notice her palm sits on barren plain with no canopy or wind break. A combination of a small, undernourished coconut, cold and wind could account for such damage.

[Palmaceae]

3 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Randy, NFM is significantly colder than Cape Coral. If she is east of US 41, she is colder yet; east of I75 she may be outside of coconut range. About a week ago I got down to 49.2 and 49.8. Coconuts can show cold damage even in the 40s, esp. if wind is howling. I also notice her palm sits on barren plain with no canopy or wind break. A combination of a small, undernourished coconut, cold and wind could account for such damage.

I agree, but my mom lives just west of US 41, just a few miles NE of me. There are some mature coconut palms in my mom's park where she lives, but as you see in the pictures she has no protection what so ever near her palms.

[Walt]

I'm thinking it may be cold induced potassium deficiency rather than typical foliage damage cause by frost/cold, or else its chilling injury (where a tropical palm goes from hot weather to cool weather in the 40s without a typical slow transition).

From University of Florida:  Chilling injury : Chilling injury occurs in tropical species at temperatures above freezing and occasionally as high as 50°F. However, the absolute temperature at which chilling injury occurs is less useful as a predictor of damage than the degree of cold acclimation a particular palm has experienced. For instance, a tropical palm acclimated to night temperatures of 70°F, but suddenly subjected to a single night of 45°F may experience some foliar necrosis (dead tissue) as a result. However, if that same palm had experienced gradually decreasing temperatures over a period of weeks, it may not show any cold injury symptoms until exposed to temperatures in the low to middle 30°sF.

If it is K deficiency brought on by cold (since the palm wasn't being properly fertilized), it probably wasn't taking up enough K.

I think my lowest temperature was about 43 degrees a couple of weeks ago. Not sure on that, but not lower. In any event, I've already noticed on my green Malayan dwarf that many of the oldest fronds have exhibited noticeable K deficiency (or possibly chilling injury), exhibited by orangish and necrotic sections of the leaves. My coconut gets severe K deficiency each winter, and by winter's end it looks ragged, with the bottom 7-8 fronds really necrotic. But I don't recall my palm showing such early signs of K deficiency at this date. But I also don't recall it getting down to 43 degrees last November of 2015, either.

I've been applying 8-2-12 palm fertilizer around my coconut palm in hopes it will take up more K so as to give it an edge this winter.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2016‎ ‎9‎:‎53‎:‎28‎, RR soFLA said:

That extent of damage is surprising to see, especially since we’re just entering the cooler season. On Pine Island  we got down to the low 50’s and bottomed at 50 on the  two coolest nights last week. I was also concerned to find spotting on two of my young(48in high) talls, and one Red Spicata I had planted over the summer. The two affected talls are sprouted from local nuts as well, luckily there was no damage to any of my other cocos. It was a sharp early season front and tender plants may have not been hardened off enough. I’m still getting used to the 10a S.W. Florida climate since moving from 10b Ft. Lauderdale. With no direct onshore fetch from the Atlantic nighttime lows run lower here and cold front recovery is slower. Cold and drought sensitivity can also vary among similar cultivars of coconuts.

Roland,

I also am surprised at the extent of damage on my palms and Randy's mother's palms, especially this early in the season.  Normally, here a coconut palm, even a juvenile one shouldn't have that kind of cold injury until about Dec. 15th or later, and where Randy's mother lives, I wouldn't expect such injury until sometime in late Dec. or early Jan.  I too miss the 10B Climate of the Ft. Lauderdale area.  I lived for a couple of years in Coral Springs, and I miss the 40ft. tall Green Malayan Dwarfs around the apartment complex I lived at, but I like having my own yard now to plant my coconut palms in, even though the most I can hope for here, is for them to get to be 1/3 to 1/2 the size they are down there.  Here in Corpus Christi, the most we can hope for, is for Malayans to get to be about 15ft. to 20ft. tall overall and talls to get to be about 20ft. to 25ft. tall in overall height between really bad coconut killing winters, and only then near the water.  Just about 7 miles inland from my place and you can forget growing them all together.

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2016‎ ‎6‎:‎40‎:‎06‎, Palmaceae said:

John,  I see that type of damage every year on my coconut palms, even in Cape Coral. We see the 40's a couple times at least here and always see some spotting. I have not seen any this year on mine but I am sure I will. 

Randy,

I am surprised at how early it happened on your mother's palms and on mine, especially since my place didn't even experience any temps below about 48F at the lowest.  I wouldn't expect any injury like that on mine before about Dec. 15th at the earliest in a normal winter, and wouldn't expect coconuts in your mother's area to get injured like that before the end of Dec. or early Jan.  I have been listening to an organic gardening program in my truck on the weekends called South Texas Gardening with Bob Webster, and he has said a couple of times that if you go all organic, you increase the cold hardiness of your cold sensitive plants.  I believe this is true as I have virtually no cold injury at all on my Cuban and Florida Royals and on my King Palm, even when we have moderate to heavy frosts here, and my coconuts by the end of normal winters, which are cool here, only have light to moderate cold injury.  I planted  3 coconut palms that were only about 3ft. to 3.5ft tall this past January (we had a very mild winter, but I normally wouldn't plant such cold sensitive plants until about Mar.), then we got hit by the one and only frost we had last winter, but it was a moderate frost with temps down to 33.6F at my place, and yet my newly planted coconut palms weren't even phased by the frost.  I went all organic about 5 years ago and have had really good results.

John

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Mr. Coconut Palm

[Palmaceae]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Randy,

I am surprised at how early it happened on your mother's palms and on mine, especially since my place didn't even experience any temps below about 48F at the lowest.  I wouldn't expect any injury like that on mine before about Dec. 15th at the earliest in a normal winter, and wouldn't expect coconuts in your mother's area to get injured like that before the end of Dec. or early Jan.  I have been listening to an organic gardening program in my truck on the weekends called South Texas Gardening with Bob Webster, and he has said a couple of times that if you go all organic, you increase the cold hardiness of your cold sensitive plants.  I believe this is true as I have virtually no cold injury at all on my Cuban and Florida Royals and on my King Palm, even when we have moderate to heavy frosts here, and my coconuts in normal winters, which are cool here only have light to moderate cold injury, like the 3 coconut palms I planted that were only about 3ft. to 3.5ft tall this past January (we had a very mild winter, but I normally wouldn't plant such cold sensitive plants until about Mar.), then we got hit by the one and only frost we had last winter, but it was a moderate frost with temps down to 33.6F at my place, and yet my newly planted coconut palms weren't even phased by the frost.

John

 

John,

I agree, I am sure since they were not well fertilized or watered added to the damage. I believe my mom's yard probably got down to 40 or so. I do most of the fertilizing of those palms but my mom does the watering, which is probaby not much. But even with that I was still shocked on the damage when I saw them as there are other mature coconuts in her park and I see no damage. It just shows you the healthier the palm the more it can handle adverse temps.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

4 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

John,

I agree, I am sure since they were not well fertilized or watered added to the damage. I believe my mom's yard probably got down to 40 or so. I do most of the fertilizing of those palms but my mom does the watering, which is probaby not much. But even with that I was still shocked on the damage when I saw them as there are other mature coconuts in her park and I see no damage. It just shows you the healthier the palm the more it can handle adverse temps.

Randy,

Right you are.  From what I have personally observed and from what I keep hearing on the gardening programs I listen to, as well as what I have read, indicates that healthy and properly watered plants without significant nutritional deficiencies can withstand cold and pest and disease problems much better than ones that aren't healthy and either too dry or too wet.

John