Spanish Moss In VA?

[PalmTreeDude]

Could I potentially grow Spanish Moss outdoors in Virginia? I am just south of Richmond, zone 7a/7b. I know Spanish Moss is native to Extreme South Eastern Virginia, but I wonder if I could grow it here.

Edited December 18, 2016 by PalmTreeDude

[NorCalKing]

A better question, why would you want to grow it? I know it's a haven for insects.

[PalmTreeDude]

1 hour ago, NorCalKing said:

A better question, why would you want to grow it? I know it's a haven for insects.

So are a lot of palms. It has a deep south look to it. Why not experiment with it?

[NorCalKing]

4 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

So are a lot of palms. It has a deep south look to it. Why not experiment with it?

I'm all for experimenting, hell, my zone 10 stuff is witness to that lol. I just find (IMHO) they don't add a tropical look. Again, opinions vary. 

[epiphyte]

The Race to Canada!  You should definitely try and help your favorite candidate win the race.  It would probably be a good idea to get some from the population in Southeastern Virginia if you can.  I'm guessing it probably has more cold tolerance than the variety in Florida.  I'm sure that you will be able to find plenty strands of Spanish Moss on the forest floor in need of saving.  Rescue as much of it as you can by following Linus's Law (given enough eyeballs, all easter eggs are shallow) and then follow the number one plant rule... don't keep all your eggs in one basket.  Spread the Spanish Moss around your yard and the yards of your neighbors and friends.  The more microhabitats you put the Spanish Moss in... the greater the chances that some strands will survive an exceptionally cold year.  

Several years back I got a good deal on a big overgrown Cattleya orchid on Craigslist.  I followed the number one plant rule and hedged my bets.  I attached the divisions to around a dozen trees.  A year or two later a freeze took out half of the divisions.  

Ideally you'll want to collect the seeds of the Spanish Moss and sow them on suitable branches.  Left to their own devices... most of the seeds will land on the ground.  The more Spanish Moss seeds you sow on the trees... the more genetic variation... and the greater the chances that an apple will fall far from the tree in the direction of greater cold tolerance.  Progress is all about difference.  

I have a ton of Spanish Moss.  If you find enough and want to exchange some then send me a private message.  I'm guessing that my Cali variety would get killed by your typical winter but it would be an interesting experiment.  

Edited December 18, 2016 by epiphyte

[PalmTreeDude]

4 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

I'm all for experimenting, hell, my zone 10 stuff is witness to that lol. I just find (IMHO) they don't add a tropical look. Again, opinions vary. 

Not a tropical look, but a deep south look.

[PalmTreeDude]

30 minutes ago, epiphyte said:

The Race to Canada!  You should definitely try and help your favorite candidate win the race.  It would probably be a good idea to get some from the population in Southeastern Virginia if you can.  I'm guessing it probably has more cold tolerance than the variety in Florida.  I'm sure that you will be able to find plenty strands of Spanish Moss on the forest floor in need of saving.  Rescue as much of it as you can by following Linus's Law (given enough eyeballs, all easter eggs are shallow) and then follow the number one plant rule... don't keep all your eggs in one basket.  Spread the Spanish Moss around your yard and the yards of your neighbors and friends.  The more microhabitats you put the Spanish Moss in... the greater the chances that some strands will survive an exceptionally cold year.  

Several years back I got a good deal on a big overgrown Cattleya orchid on Craigslist.  I followed the number one plant rule and hedged my bets.  I attached the divisions to around a dozen trees.  A year or two later a freeze took out half of the divisions.  

Ideally you'll want to collect the seeds of the Spanish Moss and sow them on suitable branches.  Left to their own devices... most of the seeds will land on the ground.  The more Spanish Moss seeds you sow on the trees... the more genetic variation... and the greater the chances that an apple will fall far from the tree in the direction of greater cold tolerance.  Progress is all about difference.  

I have a ton of Spanish Moss.  If you find enough and want to exchange some then send me a private message.  I'm guessing that my Cali variety would get killed by your typical winter but it would be an interesting experiment.  

Hmm... I never really thought about collecting some of the Virginia veriety. I would definitely only collect it off the ground or very low to the ground, I don't want to take part in messing up the population that has a great chance of survival. I always thought Spanish Moss seeds were very very very small, are they? If I can get Spanish Moss to seed and then the seeds grow on my trees, then it looks like I just started a new northern exteme variety. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by PalmTreeDude

[epiphyte]

22 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Hmm... I never really thought about collecting some of the Virginia veriety. I would definitely only collect it off the ground or very low to the ground, I don't want to take part in messing up the population that has a great chance of survival. I always thought Spanish Moss seeds were very very very small, are they? If I can get Spanish Moss to seed and then the seeds grow on my trees, then it looks like I just started a new northern exteme variety. 

There should be plenty of strands on the ground.  Even if there aren't... well... survival is a function of hedging.  So if you help a species hedge its bets... then you help increase its chances of survival.  

"People collect baseball cards and people collect plant seeds.  In reality, it is not all that surprising that as people move around they help preserve the genetic diversity of plants." - Norman C. Ellstrand. Maize Germplasm Conservation in Southern California’s Urban Gardens: Introduced Diversity Beyond ex situ and in situ Management

Spanish Moss seeds are relatively small.  They are a lot smaller than coconuts... but definitely larger than orchid seeds.  

I have a lot more Spanish Moss than Tillandsia aeranthos but for some reason I find more aeranthos volunteers.  Usually the Spanish Moss has plenty of seed pods but more often than not the pod will open but the seeds won't fly the coop.  Instead, they'll simply germinate right there.  So there will be small clusters of babies attached to stands of Spanish Moss. Not sure if that's supposed to happen.    

I'm guessing that most Tillandsias prefer to have their seeds dispersed before, rather than during, the rainy season.  Well... clearly Tillandsias prefer to have their pods open when it's adequately windy.  

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

On 12/18/2016, 6:58:37, PalmTreeDude said:

Not a tropical look, but a deep south look.

If he isn't from the Eastern United States, he likely wont understand what it means to us over here.  Its definitively Southeastern even more so than being generally southern. 

 

As for collecting, I would only collect what is on the ground.   I was impressed at the large amounts of Spanish Moss that was within reach on low branches, that had been left along at First Landing State Park.   We should keep it that way since it is very rare in Virginia.   I have always been against collecting anything in the wild that is rare and / or endangered.   Think about it, what if every plant collector wanted something endangered and took it from the wild?  Well, it very well may disappear.  Take only what is on the ground and nothing else. There should be more than enough there. 

I have high doubts about it indoors. Its way too dry, and Spanish Moss needs natural rain. It derives much of its nutrients from rainwater.  I'm convinced that tapwater is terrible for it if not lethal.   I honestly do not thing that it will survive much further inland than the VA Beach / Hampton Roads area.  First Landing State Park is a very special place that is very heavily influenced by the ocean as it is surrounded by it on 3 sides.  I would bet that it is likely one of the warmest places in Souteastern VA.  Even when I lived very close to the shore of the Potomac River in 7B, I could not get Spanish Moss to survive.   Granted, I did not take any from First Landing State Park, because I think it is wrong to do so.  So I really don't know if it would survive elsewhere in a similar environment.  If you are as far inland is Richmond, that climate is very different from VA Beach and sees substantially colder temps at times.   

[GDLWyverex]

On 12/18/2016, 9:11:29, PalmTreeDude said:

Could I potentially grow Spanish Moss outdoors in Virginia? I am just south of Richmond, zone 7a/7b. I know Spanish Moss is native to Extreme South Eastern Virginia, but I wonder if I could grow it here.

I grow it in Guadalajara, just for fun. It is a very slow grower and not too fond of direct sun. The only problem I envision is posible reaction to winter cold.

[GDLWyverex]

40 minutes ago, GDLWyverex said:

I grow it in Guadalajara, just for fun. It is a very slow grower and not too fond of direct sun. The only problem I envision is posible reaction to winter cold.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I tried some in a few live oak trees that lived for a few years before the temperature dropped below 20 accompanied with ice and killed it. It always seemed to do really well in April-June then declined in July-September when we were around 100 degrees and the humidity dropped.  Then it would do well again in October before getting beat up during winter. 

[climate change virginia]

@PalmTreeDude Sure go for it! the Spanish Moss at the first landing site survived 1F think its a good idea. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by climate change virginia

[Muslim Gardener]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:47 PM, climate change virginia said:

@PalmTreeDude Sure go for it! the Spanish Moss at the first landing site survived 1F think its a good idea. 

First Landing is a microclimate surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, Chesapeake Bay, and Broad Bay. It's full of hills and ridges that slow wind and the low areas between each ridge have swamps. You can zoom in on satellite maps and see it in places where less bald cypress and pines cover the topography in areas.

Because of this, when it got to 1°F once in Virginia Beach, a record cold temperature for the area that didn't last long, by the time those cold winds got to First Landing the air temperature was 7°F. It only got to 7°F on the Western waterfront parts of the park exposed to the wind and the Spanish Moss had a 47.2% die back rate. That winter gave the Spanish Moss a beating but as a population it survived. Many individual plants died. The variety in Easton/Eastville, Virginia on the Delmarva Peninsula is the most cold hardy Spanish Moss ecotype and only had about a 20% fatality rate when exposed to 5°F for 2 hours and then put in 40°F for 3 more hours and 60°F for a week after that. This test in a controlled greenhouse repeated exactly the same way killed 58% of the Virginia Beach ecotype. There is also the ecotype found in the forests between Northern Newport News and York County but it is extremely rare and endangered and not much is known about it. It is definitely more cold hardy than VB but less cold hardy than the Delmarva Spanish Moss. Here are some photos of it my relatives took:

[Colin1110082]

On 10/25/2024 at 10:35 AM, Muslim Gardener said:

First Landing is a microclimate surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, Chesapeake Bay, and Broad Bay. It's full of hills and ridges that slow wind and the low areas between each ridge have swamps. You can zoom in on satellite maps and see it in places where less bald cypress and pines cover the topography in areas.

Because of this, when it got to 1°F once in Virginia Beach, a record cold temperature for the area that didn't last long, by the time those cold winds got to First Landing the air temperature was 7°F. It only got to 7°F on the Western waterfront parts of the park exposed to the wind and the Spanish Moss had a 47.2% die back rate. That winter gave the Spanish Moss a beating but as a population it survived. Many individual plants died. The variety in Easton/Eastville, Virginia on the Delmarva Peninsula is the most cold hardy Spanish Moss ecotype and only had about a 20% fatality rate when exposed to 5°F for 2 hours and then put in 40°F for 3 more hours and 60°F for a week after that. This test in a controlled greenhouse repeated exactly the same way killed 58% of the Virginia Beach ecotype. There is also the ecotype found in the forests between Northern Newport News and York County but it is extremely rare and endangered and not much is known about it. It is definitely more cold hardy than VB but less cold hardy than the Delmarva Spanish Moss. Here are some photos of it my relatives took:

I didn’t know it was that common down there besides the first landing state park 

[SeanK]

I think Spanish Moss reaches it's lower limit in z7a. Bigger issue is RH. Wherever you see it naturally, there is a lot of overnight humidity. Roads are damp in the early morning without rain. Away from that may require daily misting. Also, birds love it for nesting. Choosing between hard sticks and soft Tillandsia, no wonder it is used to line nests.

[Tomas]

On 10/27/2024 at 3:04 PM, SeanK said:

I think Spanish Moss reaches it's lower limit in z7a. Bigger issue is RH. Wherever you see it naturally, there is a lot of overnight humidity. Roads are damp in the early morning without rain. Away from that may require daily misting. Also, birds love it for nesting. Choosing between hard sticks and soft Tillandsia, no wonder it is used to line nests.

Funny, here in Rome, Italy the blackbirds use it too for their nests, but only for the external base, the internal part is lined with dried grass. They still have to discover the comfort of the tillandsia😄

[Muslim Gardener]

On 10/26/2024 at 8:51 PM, Colin1110082 said:

I didn’t know it was that common down there besides the first landing state park 

Spanish Moss's, no, Spanish Moss'? Mosses? Idk good English, sorry.

The Spanish Moss plant's natural range extended up to the Pocomoke River in Maryland pre-colonization. The first Spanish Moss collected and sent to Britain by English settlers was from Southern coastal Maryland on the Eastern Shore, AKA Delmarva Peninsula. 

[Muslim Gardener]

On 10/27/2024 at 10:04 AM, SeanK said:

I think Spanish Moss reaches it's lower limit in z7a. Bigger issue is RH. Wherever you see it naturally, there is a lot of overnight humidity. Roads are damp in the early morning without rain. Away from that may require daily misting. Also, birds love it for nesting. Choosing between hard sticks and soft Tillandsia, no wonder it is used to line nests.

I've never seen this wet road phenomenon in the Virginia Beach area but wet grass happens all the time from morning fog/mist/dew.

[SeanK]

8 hours ago, Muslim Gardener said:

I've never seen this wet road phenomenon in the Virginia Beach area but wet grass happens all the time from morning fog/mist/dew.

That moisture keeps the Spanish Moss hydrated.

[Muslim Gardener]

5 hours ago, SeanK said:

That moisture keeps the Spanish Moss hydrated.

It sure does! And thank God it does, because it hasn't rained for a month here in Newport News. Spanish Moss still growing strong! My cousin is documenting it on iNaturalist. She just took these photos today at the place literally named Spanish Moss Swamp which is on the walking trail to the East of Huntington Point Neighborhood in Newport News area. It's accessible by trail entrance near the dog park.

[SeanK]

Next time you're in Florida, you should bring back some ball moss.

https://succulentcity.com/tillandsia-recurvata/?origin=serp_auto

 

[Muslim Gardener]

12 hours ago, SeanK said:

Next time you're in Florida, you should bring back some ball moss.

https://succulentcity.com/tillandsia-recurvata/?origin=serp_auto

 

I don't know if it's native to here or if it can survive our winters. If it is, it might become invasive and outcompete our native epiphytic bromeliad, Spanish Moss. 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, Muslim Gardener said:

I don't know if it's native to here or if it can survive our winters. If it is, it might become invasive and outcompete our native epiphytic bromeliad, Spanish Moss. 

Since both  are New World Natives,  One would not out compete the other or be an invasive threat to the other. 

Grow side by side in many areas where their distribution ranges overlap.

[Muslim Gardener]

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Since both  are New World Natives,  One would not out compete the other or be an invasive threat to the other. 

Grow side by side in many areas where their distribution ranges overlap.

What is that red dot in Ohio on the map of where Spanish moss can be found?

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, Muslim Gardener said:

What is that red dot in Ohio on the map of where Spanish moss can be found?

An observation...  It and the one added from N. KY may not be accurate however since some people will post an observation using their home location rather than where the plant / other organism was actually seen, like they should. Me myself, those " bad " observations should be scrubbed from iNat's data until confirmed.

That said, not totally out of the question Spanish Moss might be growing somewhere in Cen.  ..maybe even N. KY. 

OTOH,  IMO, the Ohio observation is probably inaccurate ..Unless i were to see more shots including what i mention below, and by at least 3 or 4, different observers, over the course of 1-3 years, during various times of each year...

...In cases of observations epiphytic Bromeliads  ..and Orchids for that matter..  made far outside their " assumed " ranges,  i myself look at observations that include detailed,  up - close   photographs of the plant where the plant rooted to a tree branch / trunk / rock, wire, etc.  ..rather than shots of a piece of -say Spanish Moss- just hanging off a twig or two ..Like a piece of Garland..

If it isn't rooted to it's perch,  it may have been placed there intentionally,  ..or by a bird / other critter that may have carried a piece of it to where it was observed.  Thus, it can't be counted as " native "   ..Until sharp, crystal clear  shots of rooted-to-their-perch photographs are posted. 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

Ball Moss is a good case study in proper / legit ID'ing of plants observed outside an assumed distribution range..



While one might assume it can't grow in drier environments, it is well documented as native to a pocket of far Southern AZ, close to the AZ / Mexico border  ..and in Baja. ( Circled bright Green on the map )

In recent years, observations have been made outside it's assumed " Arizona "  range, as well as further north than it's assumed range in Baja..  ( Circled lighter Green and Yellow < most recent observations >  on the map.

** Only exception within this group of observations is the observation made just south of the border in far S.E. AZ which,  while it is from 2017,  was made by a well known botanist in the state / region, Sue Carnahan **

In most of the more recent observations, except for Sue's,  there are multiple pictures inc closer up shots that show the plants firmly attached to their perches, and / or many other specimens of the same plant seen in the fore / background in the same shot(s)

This tells me that these particular " outlier " populations have been present in their observed location for -at least-  a few years.  Because the locations, here at least, are fairly remote, no way someone could intentionally place the plants. 

Still, i want to see more observations, particularly from the Yellow areas.. Sharp / crystal clear shots of seedlings / really young plants would add confirmation to their continued presence too ...let alone when looking for new observations just outside of where these " new " populations are located

With Sue's observation, you can clearly see the plant is anchored to it's twig perch, so that population might be perched higher up in nearby trees.

In the case of the observation made in Ensenada ( Baja Norte ) Ball Moss specimen observed could have been placed intentionally ..or it may have started off as seed that drifted in from somewhere nearby and went un-noticed until reaching the observed size. . ...A lot of areas down there haven't been finitely scoured for plants ...so the exact northern boundary of it's distribution there may still be undetermined. 

Seed on many epiphytic Broms. is very similar to Dandelion seed and can drift quite a distance away on the wind from where it matured and was dispersed. 

If conditions are ideal when that seed lands, say in the crag of a twig or rock, it will germinate. Whether or not it gets further than that life stage will be determined by what weather- related conditions it faces afterward.

When i lived in FL, Ball Moss seedlings ( ..or some other native Tillandsia  sp ) sprouted on a couple larger potted Bursera i have, which surprised me since where the plants sat in the yard was in full hot sun.

Unfortunately, once i moved here, the summer that year caused the seedlings to die out.  Might have survived -at least- a little longer had that summer been wet.

Regardless, to confirm any potential range expansion, if i lived in an area just north of where Spanish  and/or  Ballmoss is confirmed as well established,  i'd be scouring any tree where tufts of each plant had been observed for any sign of seedlings / young plants,  and /or multiple specimens of various age in the same tree / trees nearby.

Same idea in those " borderline " areas where one can safely access any trees recently felled after a storm.

Unlike some plants where it might take really in- depth ( and eye straining / teeth grinding ) analysis of specimens to determine whether or not the plant sample observed / collected for analysis is new to an area, ..or new period..  most epiphytic Tillandsia ( and Orchids ) native within the U.S. are reasonably distinct enough to easily tell apart from one another, some show such distinctive traits even at seedling / younger aged plant size..




 

[Muslim Gardener]

17 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

An observation...  It and the one added from N. KY may not be accurate however since some people will post an observation using their home location rather than where the plant / other organism was actually seen, like they should. Me myself, those " bad " observations should be scrubbed from iNat's data until confirmed.

That said, not totally out of the question Spanish Moss might be growing somewhere in Cen.  ..maybe even N. KY. 

OTOH,  IMO, the Ohio observation is probably inaccurate ..Unless i were to see more shots including what i mention below, and by at least 3 or 4, different observers, over the course of 1-3 years, during various times of each year...

...In cases of observations epiphytic Bromeliads  ..and Orchids for that matter..  made far outside their " assumed " ranges,  i myself look at observations that include detailed,  up - close   photographs of the plant where the plant rooted to a tree branch / trunk / rock, wire, etc.  ..rather than shots of a piece of -say Spanish Moss- just hanging off a twig or two ..Like a piece of Garland..

If it isn't rooted to it's perch,  it may have been placed there intentionally,  ..or by a bird / other critter that may have carried a piece of it to where it was observed.  Thus, it can't be counted as " native "   ..Until sharp, crystal clear  shots of rooted-to-their-perch photographs are posted. 

 

Spanish Moss doesn't have roots. It's never rooted to anything. It also cannot survive where the two observations are in Northern Kentucky and in Northern Ohio. It's too cold during the winters and the humidity isn't consistent enough. Spanish Moss doesn't even survive in Chattanooga when people do everything they can to get it to grow there. 

[Muslim Gardener]

16 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Ball Moss is a good case study in proper / legit ID'ing of plants observed outside an assumed distribution range..



While one might assume it can't grow in drier environments, it is well documented as native to a pocket of far Southern AZ, close to the AZ / Mexico border  ..and in Baja. ( Circled bright Green on the map )

In recent years, observations have been made outside it's assumed " Arizona "  range, as well as further north than it's assumed range in Baja..  ( Circled lighter Green and Yellow < most recent observations >  on the map.

** Only exception within this group of observations is the observation made just south of the border in far S.E. AZ which,  while it is from 2017,  was made by a well known botanist in the state / region, Sue Carnahan **

In most of the more recent observations, except for Sue's,  there are multiple pictures inc closer up shots that show the plants firmly attached to their perches, and / or many other specimens of the same plant seen in the fore / background in the same shot(s)

This tells me that these particular " outlier " populations have been present in their observed location for -at least-  a few years.  Because the locations, here at least, are fairly remote, no way someone could intentionally place the plants. 

Still, i want to see more observations, particularly from the Yellow areas.. Sharp / crystal clear shots of seedlings / really young plants would add confirmation to their continued presence too ...let alone when looking for new observations just outside of where these " new " populations are located

With Sue's observation, you can clearly see the plant is anchored to it's twig perch, so that population might be perched higher up in nearby trees.

In the case of the observation made in Ensenada ( Baja Norte ) Ball Moss specimen observed could have been placed intentionally ..or it may have started off as seed that drifted in from somewhere nearby and went un-noticed until reaching the observed size. . ...A lot of areas down there haven't been finitely scoured for plants ...so the exact northern boundary of it's distribution there may still be undetermined. 

Seed on many epiphytic Broms. is very similar to Dandelion seed and can drift quite a distance away on the wind from where it matured and was dispersed. 

If conditions are ideal when that seed lands, say in the crag of a twig or rock, it will germinate. Whether or not it gets further than that life stage will be determined by what weather- related conditions it faces afterward.

When i lived in FL, Ball Moss seedlings ( ..or some other native Tillandsia  sp ) sprouted on a couple larger potted Bursera i have, which surprised me since where the plants sat in the yard was in full hot sun.

Unfortunately, once i moved here, the summer that year caused the seedlings to die out.  Might have survived -at least- a little longer had that summer been wet.

Regardless, to confirm any potential range expansion, if i lived in an area just north of where Spanish  and/or  Ballmoss is confirmed as well established,  i'd be scouring any tree where tufts of each plant had been observed for any sign of seedlings / young plants,  and /or multiple specimens of various age in the same tree / trees nearby.

Same idea in those " borderline " areas where one can safely access any trees recently felled after a storm.

Unlike some plants where it might take really in- depth ( and eye straining / teeth grinding ) analysis of specimens to determine whether or not the plant sample observed / collected for analysis is new to an area, ..or new period..  most epiphytic Tillandsia ( and Orchids ) native within the U.S. are reasonably distinct enough to easily tell apart from one another, some show such distinctive traits even at seedling / younger aged plant size..




 

I'm not surprised at all, it gets very moist and humid on the slopes of the mountains that rise over the deserts out west. There are tall Pine trees covered in Moss and Lichens and flowing streams that spray mist as they tumble over boulders. 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, Muslim Gardener said:

Spanish Moss doesn't have roots. It's never rooted to anything. It also cannot survive where the two observations are in Northern Kentucky and in Northern Ohio. It's too cold during the winters and the humidity isn't consistent enough. Spanish Moss doesn't even survive in Chattanooga when people do everything they can to get it to grow there. 

Debatable, no matter what  the internet says ...  True that any " roots " produced by Tillandsia are solely for anchoring ( Non-functional ) , rather as a means of obtaining nutrients.

Would bet a penny Both Spanish Moss and Ballmoss could grow as far north as Cen. KY.  Lived in Cincinnati for several years.. Far colder than here obviously, but not terribly cold during the winters( though still wayy too cold for me ). Have warmed a bit since i lived out there too, which only increases the odds of survival  -in the right spot(s).


As mentioned... N. Ohio?  yep, Forget about it surviving winters up there. -For the time being at least. 

2 hours ago, Muslim Gardener said:

I'm not surprised at all, it gets very moist and humid on the slopes of the mountains that rise over the deserts out west. There are tall Pine trees covered in Moss and Lichens and flowing streams that spray mist as they tumble over boulders. 

Yeahhh, 😂  As someone who actually lives here,  the above, " extra colorful vision "  of the climate in the mountains here is more of an exaggerated description of an ideal  climate than actual truth in many areas,  particularly below the Rim / outside the White Mountains ..And the few remaining specks of forests atop many of the Sky Islands in the southern part of AZ.

Further south, where the Mex. Plateau / deep cut canyons help ring out more moisture in the Sierra Madre Occidental, the idealized description is a better fit ..though still not 100% accurate.

Not even close to accurate for the areas where Ball Moss has been encountered in AZ..  Let alone where you'd encounter it in Baja, ...at least north of the Sierra De La Laguna in Baja Sur. ..

Here in Arizona, majority of locations where it has been encountered are slightly modified micro climate spots in middle, lower elevation areas ( Elv. range that = roughly 3,000' - about 5.5K ft ) that are HOT and DRY for long periods during the year    ..Not up in the " cooler " portions of the mountains.

Has not been observed anywhere near any assumed, better suited areas like locations up on the Rim / in the White Mtns.  -Yet at least..

" Mosses ",  a generic term that should always be divided into the two distinguishing categories ( = Bryophytic and  Lycophytic ) rather than lumped into a generalist's junk pile term.   ..and numerous Ferns can be found at low elevations  -in the desert-  far removed from any extra humidity provided by seasonal streams as well.

Only spots in the state where Beard Lichens ( Genus Usnea ) can be found are higher up in the taller mountains,  particularly up on the Rim / White Mountains and highest points in the Chiricahuas, possibly Mt. Graham in S.E. AZ.

Same with the Lichen Genus Ramalina ( extremely restricted distribution in the state ) / Ramalinaceae  family,  and others in the Shield Lichen sub-family, Parmelioideae,  like the Genus Evernia,  Oakmoss Lichens.

 

[Muslim Gardener]

On 10/31/2024 at 12:58 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Debatable, no matter what  the internet says ...  True that any " roots " produced by Tillandsia are solely for anchoring ( Non-functional ) , rather as a means of obtaining nutrients.

Would bet a penny Both Spanish Moss and Ballmoss could grow as far north as Cen. KY.  Lived in Cincinnati for several years.. Far colder than here obviously, but not terribly cold during the winters( though still wayy too cold for me ). Have warmed a bit since i lived out there too, which only increases the odds of survival  -in the right spot(s).


As mentioned... N. Ohio?  yep, Forget about it surviving winters up there. -For the time being at least. 

Yeahhh, 😂  As someone who actually lives here,  the above, " extra colorful vision "  of the climate in the mountains here is more of an exaggerated description of an ideal  climate than actual truth in many areas,  particularly below the Rim / outside the White Mountains ..And the few remaining specks of forests atop many of the Sky Islands in the southern part of AZ.

Further south, where the Mex. Plateau / deep cut canyons help ring out more moisture in the Sierra Madre Occidental, the idealized description is a better fit ..though still not 100% accurate.

Not even close to accurate for the areas where Ball Moss has been encountered in AZ..  Let alone where you'd encounter it in Baja, ...at least north of the Sierra De La Laguna in Baja Sur. ..

Here in Arizona, majority of locations where it has been encountered are slightly modified micro climate spots in middle, lower elevation areas ( Elv. range that = roughly 3,000' - about 5.5K ft ) that are HOT and DRY for long periods during the year    ..Not up in the " cooler " portions of the mountains.

Has not been observed anywhere near any assumed, better suited areas like locations up on the Rim / in the White Mtns.  -Yet at least..

" Mosses ",  a generic term that should always be divided into the two distinguishing categories ( = Bryophytic and  Lycophytic ) rather than lumped into a generalist's junk pile term.   ..and numerous Ferns can be found at low elevations  -in the desert-  far removed from any extra humidity provided by seasonal streams as well.

Only spots in the state where Beard Lichens ( Genus Usnea ) can be found are higher up in the taller mountains,  particularly up on the Rim / White Mountains and highest points in the Chiricahuas, possibly Mt. Graham in S.E. AZ.

Same with the Lichen Genus Ramalina ( extremely restricted distribution in the state ) / Ramalinaceae  family,  and others in the Shield Lichen sub-family, Parmelioideae,  like the Genus Evernia,  Oakmoss Lichens.

 

Spanish Moss cannot survive anywhere in Kentucky or Ohio outdoors without special protection somehow like being in a greenhouse. The humidity and temperature does not allow it. Spanish Moss needs consistent humidity at a certain level and needs temperatures to not get too low for too long. Also, North Ohio is zone 6b just like Cincinnati. I lived by Lake Erie and the Winters were more mild than the Cincinnati area where my aunt lives. 

[Silas_Sancona]

57 minutes ago, Muslim Gardener said:

Spanish Moss cannot survive anywhere in Kentucky or Ohio outdoors without special protection somehow like being in a greenhouse. The humidity and temperature does not allow it. Spanish Moss needs consistent humidity at a certain level and needs temperatures to not get too low for too long. Also, North Ohio is zone 6b just like Cincinnati. I lived by Lake Erie and the Winters were more mild than the Cincinnati area where my aunt lives. 

Just how confident are you that it can't survive -anywhere-  in KY? 

.25 cents on someone finding it growing naturally,  un aided by.. /  growing far from..  human interference,  in  KY  within the next 20-25 years.. =  Just how much i trust my gut on certain hunches. 

*** FYI:  Reward requires 2 years of observation from the place first observed,  and certified voucher by state wildlife / native plant officials,  so no one can cheat by say snapping shots of a few clumps of it intentionally  placed in / on a tree / trees  in a state park somewhere 20 miles from home..   Anyway...



" Dry " periods -anywhere- back east are humid compared to CA and it has been grown outdoors, successfully there.

It also has been observed from areas near the coast close to Mazatlan, in  Sinaloa State ( W. coast of Mexico )

While that part of the Mexican West Coast is humid  ..more humid than up this way,  Winters are warm / somewhat hot  ..and dry.     

Spring down there = sizzle by roughly mid April. . Bone dry at the same time also ..until approx mid June ( at the earliest ) when the beginning of Monsoon season is close to getting underway. 

If it can survive those conditions, it certainly can handle any of the brief " dry " spells back east.   Would be nice to get my fingers on plants / seed from specimens growing in that area. Might handle heat / long dry periods better than the stuff sourced from back east.



If it were super sensitive to extreme cold, the 2021 freeze would have ( could have ??? )  done a number on it in areas where it grows TX,  far removed from the coast, where it got COLD.  Extreme cold spells experienced there, and in other areas in it's current range in more recent years would have also knocked it out -to some deg. at least.




As far as Cincinnati being colder than close to the lakes?   Dated someone who wanted to make a trip up to Cleveland to visit friends in Feb. of one winter while i lived there.  Told her ..Have fun,  Hate cold,  ...you're on your own. 

Avoid cold places like the plague. 

[Muslim Gardener]

23 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Just how confident are you that it can't survive -anywhere-  in KY? 

.25 cents on someone finding it growing naturally,  un aided by.. /  growing far from..  human interference,  in  KY  within the next 20-25 years.. =  Just how much i trust my gut on certain hunches. 

*** FYI:  Reward requires 2 years of observation from the place first observed,  and certified voucher by state wildlife / native plant officials,  so no one can cheat by say snapping shots of a few clumps of it intentionally  placed in / on a tree / trees  in a state park somewhere 20 miles from home..   Anyway...



" Dry " periods -anywhere- back east are humid compared to CA and it has been grown outdoors, successfully there.

It also has been observed from areas near the coast close to Mazatlan, in  Sinaloa State ( W. coast of Mexico )

While that part of the Mexican West Coast is humid  ..more humid than up this way,  Winters are warm / somewhat hot  ..and dry.     

Spring down there = sizzle by roughly mid April. . Bone dry at the same time also ..until approx mid June ( at the earliest ) when the beginning of Monsoon season is close to getting underway. 

If it can survive those conditions, it certainly can handle any of the brief " dry " spells back east.   Would be nice to get my fingers on plants / seed from specimens growing in that area. Might handle heat / long dry periods better than the stuff sourced from back east.



If it were super sensitive to extreme cold, the 2021 freeze would have ( could have ??? )  done a number on it in areas where it grows TX,  far removed from the coast, where it got COLD.  Extreme cold spells experienced there, and in other areas in it's current range in more recent years would have also knocked it out -to some deg. at least.




As far as Cincinnati being colder than close to the lakes?   Dated someone who wanted to make a trip up to Cleveland to visit friends in Feb. of one winter while i lived there.  Told her ..Have fun,  Hate cold,  ...you're on your own. 

Avoid cold places like the plague. 

Some ecotypes may be more tolerant of brief freezes but that generally does cause lots of damage to Spanish Moss populations. 

Spanish Moss cannot and will not naturalization in Kentucky without human interference (ex: protection, genetic engineering, etc). Spanish Moss can't even grow on Long Island so what makes you think it's going to magically start appearing and being able to suddenly survive in Kentucky? 

[Silas_Sancona]

17 hours ago, Muslim Gardener said:

Spanish Moss cannot and will not naturalization in Kentucky without human interference (ex: protection, genetic engineering, etc). Spanish Moss can't even grow on Long Island so what makes you think it's going to magically start appearing and being able to suddenly survive in Kentucky? 

There's a pretty obvious, 3 tiered answer to this question,  starting with a basic pillar and foundation of natural sciences,  but, like a good teacher,  i'll let you do the work to connect the dots / piece together the puzzle presented,  rather than providing more insight / answering the question(s) to this case for you.

Only hint:  This piece of detective work is realllyyy easy to figure out.



 

[VA Jeff]

I've never seen ball moss north of Savannah.  After Hurricane Helene, I started picking it up off the ground here in Georgia and placing it in palm trees.  

[Muslim Gardener]

On 11/3/2024 at 11:04 PM, VA Jeff said:

I've never seen ball moss north of Savannah.  After Hurricane Helene, I started picking it up off the ground here in Georgia and placing it in palm trees.  

Does it attach well?

[VA Jeff]

I didn't bother to attach it to palm trees, but it does hang even on the trunks of oak trees and other trees.  

[Muslim Gardener]

On 11/5/2024 at 9:24 PM, VA Jeff said:

I didn't bother to attach it to palm trees, but it does hang even on the trunks of oak trees and other trees.  

Interesting. It must be similar to Spanish Moss but I wasn't sure as it's less long and stand-like