florida Palms and Others of Interest

[Merlyn]

@kinzyjr that gives me hope that I can try Elegans and Acuminata here.  For my place that Christmas 2022 freeze was very similar to the 3 day freeze in 2009/2010.  I had about 20-21 hours under freezing and bottomed out at 26.4...with 2 full days that just barely squeaked up to 50-51F.  I'll have to see if I can find some reasonably priced Acuminata and Elegans and give them a shot! 

[kinzyjr]

On 5/2/2024 at 11:03 AM, Zeeth said:

A recent article in the palms journal actually recognizes S. miamiensis as a true distinct species:

https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/PALMSv68n1p011-013-Sabal-miamiensis.pdf

Thank you.  There is a paper copy of this issue on my bookshelf that hasn't been opened yet, so this evening I'll give it a read.  My choice to label it as a synonym of Sabal etonia was based on the WFO Plant List: https://wfoplantlist.org/

Guess this is another example of "depends on who you ask"

On 5/2/2024 at 7:51 PM, Merlyn said:

@kinzyjr that gives me hope that I can try Elegans and Acuminata here.  For my place that Christmas 2022 freeze was very similar to the 3 day freeze in 2009/2010.  I had about 20-21 hours under freezing and bottomed out at 26.4...with 2 full days that just barely squeaked up to 50-51F.  I'll have to see if I can find some reasonably priced Acuminata and Elegans and give them a shot! 

Good luck with them!  They're both gorgeous.  My nod goes to Carpentaria acuminata here for being less fussy.  A lot of Ptychosperma elegans volunteers from a seed dump of ~600 surplus seeds damped off before they establish.  The remainder are happily growing down at the bottom of the yard amongst the ferns.

Update III: Coconuts:

The first five photos are from the South Coconut Bed.  This area was reworked after the death of my second Atlantic Tall coconut.  The rework was shown in an earlier post, but the full view along with the progress of the trunking Atlantic Tall are shown below.  The young Panama Tall donated by @Plantking165 has also grown steadily.

The view from the west end:

The view from the east end and a full view of the Atlantic Tall:

The Panama Tall baby:

The second most popular coconut in the garden is the Maypan:

The Panama Tall in the South Bed should pick up this year as it will get more sun now that the canopy above it is higher.

After the loss of my Green Malayan, @Plantking165 stepped up to offer a replacement.  It's growing very well now.

My Fiji Dwarf was a question mark as far as cold tolerance.  It shook off Dec. 2022 pretty well and is now pinnate.

This coconut was one of two previously planted behind the Fiji Dwarf.  The other was always unhealthy and perished after Dec. 2022 got a little too cold for it.  The other is now in the back of the garden where it gets afternoon sun.  If it shakes off a little transplant shock, it should be good to go.

[kinzyjr]

The new red zone is ready for the rain (if we ever get it):

[kinzyjr]

Got a few photos of some of the blooms in the garden:

Phoenix reclinata hybrid: Flowers now, seeds on the way, most likely with Phoenix dactylifera or Phoenix roebelenii as the pollen donor since its female counterpart flowered about 2 months ago.

Phoenix dactylifera 'Medjool': The fruit will rot, but there should be a lot of seeds.

Phoenix roebelenii: Maybe the squirrels should develop an appetite for these.  They'd be the fattest squirrels in the world.

Rhapis excelsa: The first photo shows the blooms, the second show runners coming up in the yard outside of the planting bed, and the third shows a stem that was cut in half pushing out a new spear.  The second and third photos illustrate the responses @D. Morrowii received about the invasive potential for this palm.

Coccoloba uvifera (Sea Grapes):

Bursera simaruba (Gumbo Limbo) Blooming:

[D. Morrowii]

They’re trying to escape!

[Merlyn]

Time for some rhizome barrier! 

[kinzyjr]

This is the year of musical palms apparently.  One dies, move another, another starts declining, etc.

A big surprise for me - the Bismarckia nobilis I planted kicked the bucket.  Root damage? Drought?  Who knows.  I got a refund and decided to finish planting specimens of Florida's native palms instead.  The first photo is of the entire haul from Sweet Bay Nursery in Parrish.  Palms are Coccothrinax argentata, Leucothrinax morrisii, and the native green form of Acoelorraphe wrightii.  The lone cycad is Zamia integrifolia.

The Coccothrinax argentata went where the Bizzie was - and immediately finished flowering!  The Zamia is keeping it company until I get a spot cleared for it and it's future companions.  Mind the bed - it has actually been raining here again.

Leucothrinax morrisii takes a spot lower in the garden.

Acoelorraphe wrightii is close by.  All of these will be watched for decline.  If natives have issues, there is something toxic in the soil.

[Merlyn]

L. Morrisii is definitely my favorite thatch palm, they have done great here.  They are still small but growing steadily even with freeze damage.  I'd grow more of them if I hadn't already massively overplanted my entire yard. 

[RiverCityRichard]

That C. Argentata is a beaut! I might have to take a trip to this nursery in Parrish. The growers must have some real patience. My L. Morrisii is half that size and put out a whopping one leaf in the past 8 months

[kinzyjr]

Farfugium flowering in the rain.

[bubba]

This is tire meets the road plantsmanship! Pushing the edges of the zone while growing from seed and from fellow palm grower’s help. This has to be a great adventure! Your hard work will be rewarded. This is a blast to watch. Thank you!

[kinzyjr]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:25 PM, bubba said:

This is tire meets the road plantsmanship! Pushing the edges of the zone while growing from seed and from fellow palm grower’s help. This has to be a great adventure! Your hard work will be rewarded. This is a blast to watch. Thank you!

Appreciate it!  This has been a lot of hard work.  The folks who have contributed seeds, plants, expertise, landscape material, design ideas, and encouragement also deserve a tip of the cap.

[kinzyjr]

Fall Update I - Odds and Ends

After possibly the worst May we've ever had, with temperatures in the  95^oF-102^oF range and only an inch of rain, the rest of the summer provided ample rain and temperatures closer to normal.  Unfortunately, Hurricane Milton damaged some of the plants after a year where it was already difficult to perform regular maintenance.  The first update will focus on some of the more common beds.

Patio Entryway - Bed #1: This bed features Livistona decora and Copernicia alba.  There was previously a small Livistona saribus in front of this bed int a small area sectioned off for it, but it was struggling in that spot.  When it was dug up and placed in a pot, it immediately went into active growth.  It will spend some time in recovery and there may need to be some remediation done to the soil in that small area.

Patio Entryway - Bed #2: This bed is code named "The Okinawa Garden" in honor of @palmfriend.  It's hard to believe that the Arenga engleri in this bed are all the same age and from the same seed batch, with the same being true for the Livistona chinensis.

Beyond the Patio: This Syagrus romanzoffiana was grown from a seed collected immediately after the Jan. 2018 advective freeze.  Hurricane Milton snapped the spear, but the palm is continuing to grow.

The Red Zone: This area is named for the red retaining wall blocks that have replaced the scalloped edging that previously served as the border for this garden.  In the first photo, seed-grown Adonidia merrillii and a Chamaerops humilis share a bed with a few sickly Chamaedorea radicalis.  I'm hoping the Chammy will snap out of its funk, but we'll see.  The second photo shows seed-grown Thrinax radiata flanked by bananas and sea grapes.  The third and fourth photos captured the size of the Coccoloba uvifera (Sea Grapes) before I had to top them in preparation for the storm.  The fifth and final photo shows a Thrinax radiata purchased from the blue big box store.

The Lighthouse Bed: This bed now features only one plant, a Brahea edulis.

The Contrast Palm: Few palms say desert like Brahea, and few say moist tropics like a Veitchia arecina.  The distance between these two palms is less than 25 feet, but both are happy.  Seeing this palm now, it is hard to believe it was nursed back to health from spear pull.

The Rock Bed: In the rock and concrete bed, Aloe and Chrysalidocarpus decaryi prove they can grow in just about anything.  If you look very closely, you can make out the fan leaves of a Sabal minor coming out of the grassy bamboo area.

The Maypan Bed: This coconut palm now has a span over 20 feet and dropped most of its leaf bases recently.  The bole at the bottom is ~18 inches.  Behind the coconut palm, a small Pritchardia thurstonii is growing.  The latter may end up being an annual, but only time will tell.

The Southside Coconut Bed: This is the bed that holds the Atlantic Tall coconut palm and another bed with Syagrus schizophylla, Adonidia merrillii, a Panama Tall coconut palm grown from a newly sprouted seed planted earlier in the year, and two pineapple plants.

The Fruit Bed: The Hyphaene coriacea and Ptychosperma macarthurii occupying this bed share the area with sugar cane, a Choquette Avocado tree, and a Glen Mango tree.  The Hyphaene took a hit from a falling avocado, hence the damaged frond.

This is the first in a series of fall updates, most likely numbering 3-5, depending on how many photos it takes and how long it takes to finish weeding the beds.

[kinzyjr]

Fall Update II - Something for Everyone

Veitchia and Friends: The first photo from left to right has Veitchia joannis, Veitchia arecina (previously labeled as subdisticha), and Carpoxylon macrospermum.  The second photo is Veitchia winin.  The third and final photo in this set is a pair of Veitchia arecina.  They have all grown well while the climate allows them to exist.

The Combo Bed: No plant lives forever, but the next set are all a little more cold-tolerant.  The first photo shows the bed previously called the Desert Bed.  The front row left-to-right: Acoelorraphe wrightii, Livistona benthamii, Leucothrinax morrisii, Sabal maritima, and 4 x Washingtonia filifera from the Moapa Valley.  They have their ups and downs, but have done better than their former companions.  The top row left to right is Sabal causiarum, Brahea brandegeei, a potted Adenium, a small bed of Chamaerops humilis seedlings, Sabal mauritiiformis, and Sabal mexicana.  Above the former Desert Bed, you can see the Veitchia mentioned in the last set.  To its right, the Coccothrinax argentata in the red retaining wall block area, followed by Zamia integrifolia, a resprouted orange tree, and a Sabal palmetto grown from seed.  The second photo is a closeup of the Washingtonia filifera to the far right.

Mistaken ID: This Washingtonia was bought as a filifera, but with the amount of red on the base of the petiole, this is a Washingtonia robusta-dominant hybrid at best.  It's still welcome in the garden and the second photo shows the kind of thing you do when mulch is between $4 and $7 per bag and you have a yard full of downed dead limbs.

Coming Along: The Acoelorraphe wrightii 'Azul' and seed-grown Dictyosperma album 'Conjugatum' are coming along nicely, but the Veitchia will have to get another year or so under their belt before they are easily seen.

A Few Cycads: I've always loved Encephalartos ferox, so receiving one for hosting the 2022 Fall CFPACS Meeting was a real treat.  Zamia furfuracea was intentionally guerilla planted in a few spots for a future "repeal and replace" project.

A Year of Adjustment: When the Veitchia arecina was removed with crown rot, this Roystonea regia was moved to it's spot.  The initial crown fried due to the change in sun exposure.  It's pushing spears now, so it's a matter of getting through one winter and getting a full growing season under its belt with the root system established.

Fear No Evil Nights: The first photo shows the Trachycarpus fortunei that grew steadily after getting singed by May's awful heatwave and drought.  The second photo shows a closer view of Sabal minor 'Arkansas' or 'Aurora'.  Neither of these would blink at 20F.

Rounding Things Out: The circular garden in front took a great deal of patience to put together.  I put the Live Oak in sometime in 2011 as a 3G with a trunk as round as my thumb.  The crotons and cordylines that give some much needed color and splash to the front wouldn't handle our winters nearly as well without the frost protection afforded by a canopy tree.  In between each of the crotons are Sabal minor 'McCurtain'.  You can see the front, back, and side view, respectively, in the second, third, and fourth photos.

Time to Eat: The hurricane brought down quite a few avocados...

[kinzyjr]

Fall Update III - Chrysalidocarpus Corner et. al..

Chrysalidocarpus prestonianus: The twin on the left was getting one of those weird fungal infections.  It received a Banrot treatment that seems to have wiped the fungal issues out.  If you have a palm starting to show fungal issues, this might be a good way to stop it in its tracks.

Chrysalidocarpus pembana

Chrysalidocarpus cabadae

Chrysalidocarpus lanceolata

Chrysalidocarpus leptocheilos: The newer palm has a better location and is outgrowing the older specimen.

Chrysalidocarpus decaryi

Chrysalidocarpus lutescens

Satakentia liukiuensis

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

Hyophorbe verschaffeltii

Chambeyronia oliviformis

Archontophoenix cunninghmania: The may drought nearly killed both of these.  One is OK, the other is 50/50 on ultimate survival.

Howea forsteriana: The drought hit these, but not as bad as I thought consistent temperatures over 95F with no rain would do.  You can still see drought damage on my quadruple clump and the smaller seedling right next to them, but they are doing well considering the circumstances.

Licuala grandis

Allagoptera arenaria: This one is back to flowering, although it is hard to see in the photo.

Cocos nucifera 'Green Malayan'

Container Photo #1: From front to back, Phoenix theophrasti, Medemia argun community pot, and Hyphaene coriacea.

Container Photo #2: The outside rack holding Veitchia arecina, Dictyosperma album 'conjugatum', a recovering Frankenbrahea, Livistona saribus, Kerriodoxa elegans, and a few other gems.

Container Photo #3: A few more Medemia argun and Hyphaene coriacea babies.

Container Photo #4: A few Jubaea chilensis seeds and Hyphaene coriacea seeds.  As you can see in the middle cup, Hyphaene doesn't mind sprouting with no medium around it.

Probably two more updates coming.  With the hurricanes, it's been a lot to clean up sections of the garden.

[Merlyn]

Looking great!  How much sun does fhe Satakentia get?  I have some big 1g pots and need to pick a spot for them.  Some people say shade, but I've seen some other Central FL photos in full sun.  I'm thinking somewhere with some frost canopy...

[D. Morrowii]

Looking great @kinzyjr I don’t see much wear and tear in the photos at least! 

[mnorell]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:49 AM, kinzyjr said:

Thank you.  There is a paper copy of this issue on my bookshelf that hasn't been opened yet, so this evening I'll give it a read.  My choice to label it as a synonym of Sabal etonia was based on the WFO Plant List: https://wfoplantlist.org/

Guess this is another example of "depends on who you ask"

Good luck with them!  They're both gorgeous.  My nod goes to Carpentaria acuminata here for being less fussy.  A lot of Ptychosperma elegans volunteers from a seed dump of ~600 surplus seeds damped off before they establish.  The remainder are happily growing down at the bottom of the yard amongst the ferns.

Update III: Coconuts:

The first five photos are from the South Coconut Bed.  This area was reworked after the death of my second Atlantic Tall coconut.  The rework was shown in an earlier post, but the full view along with the progress of the trunking Atlantic Tall are shown below.  The young Panama Tall donated by @Plantking165 has also grown steadily.

The view from the west end:

The view from the east end and a full view of the Atlantic Tall:

The Panama Tall baby:

The second most popular coconut in the garden is the Maypan:

The Panama Tall in the South Bed should pick up this year as it will get more sun now that the canopy above it is higher.

After the loss of my Green Malayan, @Plantking165 stepped up to offer a replacement.  It's growing very well now.

My Fiji Dwarf was a question mark as far as cold tolerance.  It shook off Dec. 2022 pretty well and is now pinnate.

This coconut was one of two previously planted behind the Fiji Dwarf.  The other was always unhealthy and perished after Dec. 2022 got a little too cold for it.  The other is now in the back of the garden where it gets afternoon sun.  If it shakes off a little transplant shock, it should be good to go.

Kinzy, you might want to get some third-party opinions on your coconut types...I may be wrong but I see at least three that do not look (to me) like the forms you state:

- Atlantic/Jamaican Tall: this doesn't look quite right to me, the leaves are not as "oversized" as is typical of this form, and in your most recent photo I notice the bole is not very large. An outsized (massive, even) bole is a very notable feature of the Jamaican Tall. It is also rather slow growing when young, sometimes frustratingly so. Yours may be a Jamaican, but just a little off-type...perhaps an outcross (e.g., PanJam). Hard to know for sure because cultural issues can really impact the appearance, of course, and because of that I am the least confident in thinking this is something else.

- Panama Tall: the palm you show has very deep orange petioles/midribs, and this is most certainly not a feature of this variety. The coloration of the petioles should be caramel to greenish-caramel, biasing toward a deep olive green on a mature tree. It also is the fastest growing coconut I know of, and about as bulky as a Jamaican, just slightly smaller. I have a feeling yours could possibly be a Red Spicata.

- Fiji Dwarf. I'm pretty sure this is not what you have, unless it is particularly stretched in shade. This type has a very squat habit, with very wide leaflets, spaced quite tightly, and rather short leaves with very little petiole. Leaflets are held mostly horizontal (the leaves are without the famous coconut "twist"). Yours doesn't show any of the characteristic features of this type. I grew one for years and know it very well, so I have a pretty high degree of certainty that this is not what you have. Note that it might be the seed of a Fiji Dwarf, but this type is notorious for outcrossing, so you might just have a cross between it and another type.

@Zeeth Keith Zimmerman is a master of Cocos I.D. here on the forum, and perhaps he can weigh in. I very much defer to his wisdom and experience, and I can certainly be wrong...but just wanted to alert you that these had red-flag elements in relation to my own experience with these forms. The world of coconuts is very mixed up in Florida, and there are all sorts of crosses floating around. It never hurts to get multiple confirmations, to avoid any disappointment in the future when you realize you were growing something other than what you thought you had.

[flplantguy]

The satakentia looks great! They all do but that one is making me excited to see what mine will be.  Gotta do an update myself after building the greenhouse, thanks for the reminder!

[kinzyjr]

@Merlyn: The Satakentia is under oak canopy and gets all day dappled light.  They grow fine under those conditions.

@D. Morrowii: Appreciate it!  The cleanup pile just got hauled away today, so there is a big hole in the front yard to fill in with dirt... from somewhere.

@flplantguy: I have a feeling you'll enjoy growing them.  One thing they tend not to like is changing light levels.

@mnorell:

I appreciate you weighing on on the coconuts.  Certainly, it was good to have someone point out that was I had labeled on the pot as a Butia was actually a stray Roystonea seed all of those years later, with time for me to move it further away from the house. 

The "Fiji Dwarf" has been the topic of at least two other conversations as the form look more like a Malayan than a Fiji Dwarf.  The first person to say it didn't look like that particular variety was @Plantking165 during a garden visit.  Time will tell, but I suspect you are right.  It was purchased at Premier Growers in St. James City. 

You may be right about the others as well  As for the history of all of the coconuts, the "Atlantic Tall/Jamaican Tall" and the "Panama Tall" came from Calusa Palms Nursery by request for those varieties.  There's certainly no harm in @Zeeth or others jumping in and stating an opinion.  To make the Panama Tall look-over easier, here is a recent close-up photo of the petioles:

With the CFPACS 2024 Fall Meeting coming up, I only had time to clean up one set of plants, so a mini-update with the Latania lontaroides between the Carpentaria acuminata twins.

 

[Plantking165]

21 hours ago, mnorell said:

Kinzy, you might want to get some third-party opinions on your coconut types...I may be wrong but I see at least three that do not look (to me) like the forms you state:

- Atlantic/Jamaican Tall: this doesn't look quite right to me, the leaves are not as "oversized" as is typical of this form, and in your most recent photo I notice the bole is not very large. An outsized (massive, even) bole is a very notable feature of the Jamaican Tall. It is also rather slow growing when young, sometimes frustratingly so. Yours may be a Jamaican, but just a little off-type...perhaps an outcross (e.g., PanJam). Hard to know for sure because cultural issues can really impact the appearance, of course, and because of that I am the least confident in thinking this is something else.

- Panama Tall: the palm you show has very deep orange petioles/midribs, and this is most certainly not a feature of this variety. The coloration of the petioles should be caramel to greenish-caramel, biasing toward a deep olive green on a mature tree. It also is the fastest growing coconut I know of, and about as bulky as a Jamaican, just slightly smaller. I have a feeling yours could possibly be a Red Spicata.

- Fiji Dwarf. I'm pretty sure this is not what you have, unless it is particularly stretched in shade. This type has a very squat habit, with very wide leaflets, spaced quite tightly, and rather short leaves with very little petiole. Leaflets are held mostly horizontal (the leaves are without the famous coconut "twist"). Yours doesn't show any of the characteristic features of this type. I grew one for years and know it very well, so I have a pretty high degree of certainty that this is not what you have. Note that it might be the seed of a Fiji Dwarf, but this type is notorious for outcrossing, so you might just have a cross between it and another type.

@Zeeth Keith Zimmerman is a master of Cocos I.D. here on the forum, and perhaps he can weigh in. I very much defer to his wisdom and experience, and I can certainly be wrong...but just wanted to alert you that these had red-flag elements in relation to my own experience with these forms. The world of coconuts is very mixed up in Florida, and there are all sorts of crosses floating around. It never hurts to get multiple confirmations, to avoid any disappointment in the future when you realize you were growing something other than what you thought you had.

I've heard of Panama talls having 2 colors an orangish type and a more green bronze pacific tall type. I disagree with the Panama being smaller than Jamaican tall a true Panama should have a more bulbous base than the Jamaican tall with less curve. Both types should be very quick growing compared to other cocos the slowest i have is my fiji dwarf. I can tell you the Panama he has isn't red spicata I've seen it in person and it's nothing like my red spicata. Mine is very bright colored and the coconut it's grew from was small enough to fit into my hand, typical for spicata. I share some of the coconut types from the same guy at calusa palms I'll show here aswell for reference. First is my fiji dwarf I've been told by many people that it's a true fiji, hard to get as the readily cross with any cocos in the area it's very slow to trunk its been here for almost 3 years had half an inch of wood when I got it  now about 3 to 4 inches. Growth is compact upright thick and dark green with close leaflets that don't allow light through easy. Next is my red spicata I've grown it from a small 3 leaf seedling. Next is one of my 2 Jamaican talls. The last is a Panama tall i got online it germinated today. All of those from calusa palms except the Panama. I've also read the Jamaicans to have 2 colors aswell a deepbgreen and a greenish bronze petiole type.

[Zeeth]

Coconuts in Florida are definitely confusing and I think the naming isn't very helpful because there are a few "subtypes" within each variety that arrived to Florida from various sources. Last I heard, the palm that's the source for the Calusa nursery is a nice tree on Marco Island typical for what I call the "Peninsular" Jamaican tall, which is the same type as the two Jamaican talls at Kopsick. This type does have a bole at the base, but it's not as pronounced as the Florida Keys type, and it's slightly faster to gain trunk from a seedling. At this size, your tree does look a little suspect, as I'd expect wider spacing between the trunk rings, but that can be variable at this stage depending on a lot of factors. The tree that I was told is the parent tree to the Calusa Jamaican talls is this one:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/QgzdQr59jYvbPS7p8

 

The Jamaican tall present in the Keys is a distinct variety in my opinion from what I've seen. The coconuts are smaller (though with a very distinct elongated shape), the bole at the base is more pronounced, it is more commonly pure green in the petiole (with bronze-green being less common), and it is very slow to get going.

 

Panama tall is also present in Florida in a weird way. A lot of material came from Panama through Jamaica (aka the Jamaica San Blas coconut), but there has been importing from Costa Rica as well (and possible other areas). I've seen some palms that were true to type and some that aren't. The true Panama tall has a very large trunk that is straighter than the Atlantic type, and the leaves don't extend as far below horizon. The PT coconuts at the USDA are this type (I have some pictures in a thread about this), but the ones at Fairchild are lacking some of the characteristics of true Panama Tall. The coconuts previously sold by Dave Romney are also the true Panama tall with a large straight trunk. The photo below shows a good example of the trunk difference between Malayan Dwarf, Fiji/Samoan Dwarf,  "Atlantic" tall, and Panama tall. IMO most of the Panama tall sold in Florida are probably something other than 100% true Panama tall unless they're from the USDA or Dave Romney. As far as coloration, I've seen similar coloration as Jeremy's tree with true Panama tall, so I wouldn't let the coloration be the deciding factor, but rather what it grows into once it's trunking. 

 

The Fiji dwarf Jeremy has definitely looks wrong. This variety is known for producing off-types in Florida and I really trust the Hawaiian origin ones more than the Florida origin ones.

 

One thing to note as well is that Hawaiian tall is very distinct from Panama tall. Panama tall shares more in common with the tall types in the Philippines rather than those from Hawaii and the South Pacific. Due to the distances and time under cultivation, there are many distinct varieties from this region, but only the Hawaiian tall is really available in Florida. It's the fastest growing coconut we have available to us, and the fronds tend to be longer with more distance between the leaflets than some of the other varieties here. Personally the Hawaiian tall is my favorite to grow. 

[mnorell]

8 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Coconuts in Florida are definitely confusing and I think the naming isn't very helpful because there are a few "subtypes" within each variety that arrived to Florida from various sources. Last I heard, the palm that's the source for the Calusa nursery is a nice tree on Marco Island typical for what I call the "Peninsular" Jamaican tall, which is the same type as the two Jamaican talls at Kopsick. This type does have a bole at the base, but it's not as pronounced as the Florida Keys type, and it's slightly faster to gain trunk from a seedling. At this size, your tree does look a little suspect, as I'd expect wider spacing between the trunk rings, but that can be variable at this stage depending on a lot of factors. The tree that I was told is the parent tree to the Calusa Jamaican talls is this one:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/QgzdQr59jYvbPS7p8

 

The Jamaican tall present in the Keys is a distinct variety in my opinion from what I've seen. The coconuts are smaller (though with a very distinct elongated shape), the bole at the base is more pronounced, it is more commonly pure green in the petiole (with bronze-green being less common), and it is very slow to get going.

 

Panama tall is also present in Florida in a weird way. A lot of material came from Panama through Jamaica (aka the Jamaica San Blas coconut), but there has been importing from Costa Rica as well (and possible other areas). I've seen some palms that were true to type and some that aren't. The true Panama tall has a very large trunk that is straighter than the Atlantic type, and the leaves don't extend as far below horizon. The PT coconuts at the USDA are this type (I have some pictures in a thread about this), but the ones at Fairchild are lacking some of the characteristics of true Panama Tall. The coconuts previously sold by Dave Romney are also the true Panama tall with a large straight trunk. The photo below shows a good example of the trunk difference between Malayan Dwarf, Fiji/Samoan Dwarf,  "Atlantic" tall, and Panama tall. IMO most of the Panama tall sold in Florida are probably something other than 100% true Panama tall unless they're from the USDA or Dave Romney. As far as coloration, I've seen similar coloration as Jeremy's tree with true Panama tall, so I wouldn't let the coloration be the deciding factor, but rather what it grows into once it's trunking. 

 

The Fiji dwarf Jeremy has definitely looks wrong. This variety is known for producing off-types in Florida and I really trust the Hawaiian origin ones more than the Florida origin ones.

 

One thing to note as well is that Hawaiian tall is very distinct from Panama tall. Panama tall shares more in common with the tall types in the Philippines rather than those from Hawaii and the South Pacific. Due to the distances and time under cultivation, there are many distinct varieties from this region, but only the Hawaiian tall is really available in Florida. It's the fastest growing coconut we have available to us, and the fronds tend to be longer with more distance between the leaflets than some of the other varieties here. Personally the Hawaiian tall is my favorite to grow. 

Wow, Keith, thanks so much for that very detailed and wonderful post. It is very nice indeed to have this kind of comparative knowledge together in one place with good photos. I didn't know about the "peninsular" form of the Jamaican...as you know, all of mine were the type all over the Keys and I grew them all from seed acquired from our neighbors. My own Panama Tall came direct from Dave Romney and that's the one I showed you when you came by that had grown to something like 25' overall height in just a few years. (And my Fiji Dwarf also came direct from Dave.)

One thing that is a rather easy i.d. between the Jamaicans and Panamas...and I think I learned it from you...the fruit on the Panama is quite spherical (or close to it...I always think of them as cannon-balls); and the Jamaican fruit are elongated, with a very distinct three-cornered beak. I had a feeling there must be a mix-up from the Calusa Nursery as Jacob's ("Plantking165") final image, of a just-germinating fruit from that nursery is definitely not a Panama, because the fruit is not spherical, but has the typical elongated fruit with the three-cornered beak most commonly associated with the Jamaican Tall. Similarly, the seeds I purchased from Let's Grow Florida in Miami were billed as Panama but are I'm pretty sure Jamaicans because they also have the three-cornered beak. Unless there is another type in cultivation in Florida with that characteristic...and if there is, I for one never became aware of it. In any event, it really pays to learn these subtle differences because nurseries are plenty fallible (sometimes just uninterested and willing to slap any name on a plant), and you are a great help to that end!

[Zeeth]

The fruit is definitely one of the more distinct aspects to identify the two varieties. Here's an example of Jamaican tall (Keys type) with the elongated, 3 pointed fruit vs Panama tall with a cannonball appearance

 

[kinzyjr]

@Zeeth + @mnorell + @Plantking165

The discourse on the coconut varieties and their properties is enjoyable.  The input is much appreciated!  With the photos of the coconuts above, the baby photos of the "Atlantic Tall" and the "Maypan" are included below for comparison.  The coconuts sold as "Atlantic Talls" are on the left and the Maypan is on the right.  For scale, the Maypan coconut was a bit larger than an NBA official basketball.  With my limited knowledge of the Atlantic Tall variety, I did really think these were legit because of the fronds nearly down to the base.  If it turns out my acceptance of this was incorrect, it would be good to be enlightened.

[kinzyjr]

Fall Update IV - A Few Favorites

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Beccariophoenix fenestralis

Archontophoenix alexandrae: this one had a rough year.  It is recovering now, but it needed sprayed for bugs and was losing fronds.

Archontophoenix teracarpa: This was a rescue when it was procured, but it has only put out one frond thus far.  It might not make it to next year.

Chambeyronia macrocarpa: Two photos showing it with a big red leaf and then after that leaf turned green.

Chambeyronia macrocarpa 'Houialou'

Pseudophoenix sargentii

Small Palms along the Wood Fence Line: The first photo shows a small, but surviving Ravenea rivularis behind a quickly growing Cryosophila warscewiczii, with a Ptychosperma elegans on the right side of the photo.  The next four photos show a Ptychoserma macarthurii from @Fishinsteeg234, and seed grown Caryota mitis, Saribus rotundifolius, and Chrysalidocarpus lutescens, respectively.

The seed-grown Phoenix dactylifera lining the driveway have been staples of the garden.

The entryway garden is anchored by Cycas revoluta, Phoenix roebelenii, and Sabal etonia (miamiensis), with a few small Sabal minor mixed in near the brick planter.

... one more showing the philodendrons.  A few were knocked over or tilted by the hurricane, but even one with a trunk split appears to be re-establishing.

[kinzyjr]

Fall Update V - Finishing Up

The driveway bed has the nicest Roystonea regia, seed-grown for 6 years.  There are a few silver Serenoa repens mixed in as well.  With Lethal Bronzing present in the neighborhood, at least the bed won't be empty if I lose the Phoenix dactylifera.

The long border bed in back took the worst hit from Hurricane Milton.  The Roystonea regia there doesn't look quite as good as the one near the driveway. 

An Allagoptera arenaria that was believed to be Dypsis pembana at one point was moved into this bed.  It was down to one frond due to the change in light levels.  It has managed to push another frond and continue growing.

The Ice Cream Bananas were leaning at roughly a 45^o angle.  They were all cut and are regrowing quickly.

A Butia odorata and a Red Spicata Hybrid make an odd couple at the back of the bed.

The aforementioned Panama Tall.  The edges of the fronds are a little yellow due to the lower sun angle and removal of the bananas changing the amount and intensity of the light hitting them.

This Bursera simaruba is going to take some time to correct after it got tilted by the hurricane.

The seed-grown Delonix regia held up pretty well.

Native Ficus aurea didn't move much.

A bunch of Foxtails popped up in the back.  This one shares a small area with Coccothrinax barbadensis.

We'll call this it until spring.  There is a lot of work ahead for the garden, with potentially more added on if we get a rough winter.

[flplantguy]

Good to see it came though well after another challeging year. I'm getting a bit nervous with the extra warmth, it makes me think the bottom will drop out in december, but maybe the trend continues with the latest bump in temps on averages worldwide. A lot of people lost good canopy this year and we can't afford even more stress on our plants after drought, floods, winds, heat, etc.  At least our plants are still small enough to protect, and technology lets us see the cold coming!  Hope to see a spring green post in march, and not a freeze mush post!

[ahosey01]

12 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Fall Update V - Finishing Up

The driveway bed has the nicest Roystonea regia, seed-grown for 6 years.  There are a few silver Serenoa repens mixed in as well.  With Lethal Bronzing present in the neighborhood, at least the bed won't be empty if I lose the Phoenix dactylifera.

The long border bed in back took the worst hit from Hurricane Milton.  The Roystonea regia there doesn't look quite as good as the one near the driveway. 

An Allagoptera arenaria that was believed to be Dypsis pembana at one point was moved into this bed.  It was down to one frond due to the change in light levels.  It has managed to push another frond and continue growing.

The Ice Cream Bananas were leaning at roughly a 45^o angle.  They were all cut and are regrowing quickly.

A Butia odorata and a Red Spicata Hybrid make an odd couple at the back of the bed.

The aforementioned Panama Tall.  The edges of the fronds are a little yellow due to the lower sun angle and removal of the bananas changing the amount and intensity of the light hitting them.

This Bursera simaruba is going to take some time to correct after it got tilted by the hurricane.

The seed-grown Delonix regia held up pretty well.

Native Ficus aurea didn't move much.

A bunch of Foxtails popped up in the back.  This one shares a small area with Coccothrinax barbadensis.

We'll call this it until spring.  There is a lot of work ahead for the garden, with potentially more added on if we get a rough winter.

I have started wondering if imidacloprid would help against LB.

[Merlyn]

@kinzyjr I picked up a Fenestralis from Neil's CFPACS meeting and put it near my front walkway.  Ok...er...I put it WAY TOO CLOSE to my front walkway.  But that's where it's going to live!    Mine is almost a mirror image of yours, it'll be interesting how these handle a serious cold front.  I have three similarly small Alfredii about 20 feet away, so it'll be a good comparison.

[FlaPalmLover]

Wow, that fenestralis looks great. In my opinion, they are nicer looking than alfredii, but I did not know if they would grow here. You don't see many posted here in Florida. I thought I'd read that there was something about the soil or humidity that they didn't like. Your yard looks great in general.

[Merlyn]

25 minutes ago, FlaPalmLover said:

Wow, that fenestralis looks great. In my opinion, they are nicer looking than alfredii, but I did not know if they would grow here. You don't see many posted here in Florida. I thought I'd read that there was something about the soil or humidity that they didn't like. Your yard looks great in general.

I think it's just that Alfredii and Madagascariensis are several degrees hardier than Fenestralis.  In FL I think Kinzyjr had a couple of "no damage" at 30 and 32 in his yard, and others like Zeeth and Tala reported major damage at 28-29F.  Mine went in the ground last summer and I think the low last winter was only 34ish. 

Once they become adults I think I'd have a hard time telling them apart. 

[TropicsEnjoyer]

Amazing that all those dates were seed grown, I wish to have similarly beautiful palms in the near future. In general too the variety you have is amazing, I bet you never get tired of walking around out there.

[kinzyjr]

6 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

I have started wondering if imidacloprid would help against LB.

If memory serves correct, there were studies where they tried using an insecticide to stop the leaf hoppers from spreading the disease, but it didn't work because the bug had already tapped into the plant by the time it died from the insecticide.  It's probably still worth another look.  In my own case, I'll probably just load up that bed with silver Serenoa repens and call it a day if something happens to the Phoenix dactylifera.

@Merlyn + @FlaPalmLover

Out of the two varieties, I would definitely give the Beccariophoenix alfredii the advantage on cold tolerance by the margin Merlyn mentioned.  Neither of mine were damaged, but they are in sheltered spots under oak canopy.  Merlyn, as far as using that walkway goes, I'd get used to walking somewhere else.  Beccariophoenix are like baby alligators - they don't stay cute and cuddly for long.  My be it that both would be fine in Deltona and that the canopy would be a good insurance policy. 

FlaPalmLover, my lot has very divergent soil regimes in the various areas, which probably explains why there a few palms here that aren't often thought of as good for Florida.  Few growers have unmodified soil pH below 6 in their yard.  The area by the Howea forsteriana is ~5.4,  while the area near the Beccariophoenix is ~6.5, and the area near the coconuts is ~7.5-8.0 in various spots.  If something fails in one area, I usually try a few more in other areas just to see if they perform better.  About the only type of soil I don't have much of here is clay.

@TropicsEnjoyer

Appreciate the compliment!  Yes, I do spend a lot of time there thinking of what I might do next.  When we get our next nasty cold snap though, I'm going to revert a lot of the areas back to some much hardier plant choices.

@flplantguy Cross your fingers for the winter, but let's bask in the extended summer for a while.