Sabal minor in habitat, McCurtain County, OK

[PalmTreeDude]

17 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Nope they are not in choctaw. They are a few east over in arkansas though. 

100% of the minor found naturally agrowing winin the new usda 8a zone.

When you say they are all found within the new USDA 8a zone, are you talking about just the Oklahoma minors or all of them (Northeast Alabama)?

Edited July 23, 2018 by PalmTreeDude
Errors

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Yea, i was staying on topic. All the "mccurtain county" population is solid 8a.

[Ben G.]

On 7/22/2018, 8:20:02, PalmTreeDude said:

Does anyone know if Sabal minor grow naturally in Choctaw County Oklahoma? The southern part of the county is zone 8a (and I know Sabal minor have been seen growing naturally in 7b in Alabama). It also is along the Red River, which I know Sabal minor follow. So it seems like a good climate for them. 

I could not tell you if there are any sabal minor populations in Choctaw county, but I was surprised to once hear that there are populations farther north in McCurtain county near Broken Bow. I once spoke to an Oklahoma palm enthusiast who was a professor of biology. He and another professor had organized a mapping survey in which they marked sabal minor populations with GPS, in order to figure out what kind of population exists and to track them over time.

He said they found some in the mountains somewhere in the Broken Bow area. So they were farther north than expected and not in low swampy habitat like one might have expected.

I can't confirm that and I never saw any study results personally. That is just what this professor told me.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

That doesn't surprise me. I found five groups containing one to three plants sprinkled around in the tall pine forest all several miles apart East of Idabel that were not swampy or in a flood plain.  They were obviously deposited from an animal and not part of an original colony.  I suspect the climate has allowed them to begin to spread throughout the area. 

[PalmTreeDude]

Sabal minor in the mountains? That would be a sight. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by PalmTreeDude

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Sabal minor in the mountains? That would be a sight. 

Northern Alabama has the foothills of the Appalachians and they apparently grow there.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

@PalmTreeDude  Don't get too excited. Oklahoma doesn't have mountains.  They barely qualify as miniature hills.

[Ben G.]

On 7/24/2018, 5:42:11, PalmTreeDude said:

Sabal minor in the mountains? That would be a sight. 

While they are not large mountains, the Ouachita Mountains of Southeast Oklahoma are a beautiful area. Maybe my favorite landscapes in Oklahoma. They look a little like the Appalachian foothills. Courtesy of google:

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Ben OK

[Ben G.]

On 7/24/2018, 7:09:42, kinzyjr said:

Northern Alabama has the foothills of the Appalachians and they apparently grow there.

It may be pretty similar terrain. I got to spend some time in Anniston Alabama last spring and it reminded me a lot of Southeast Oklahoma. It was a nice area and I thought the locals were pretty pleasant folks.

[JeffinGarland]

On 7/22/2018, 8:20:02, PalmTreeDude said:

Does anyone know if Sabal minor grow naturally in Choctaw County Oklahoma? The southern part of the county is zone 8a (and I know Sabal minor have been seen growing naturally in 7b in Alabama). It also is along the Red River, which I know Sabal minor follow. So it seems like a good climate for them. 

I grew up in Red River County, Texas.  I have spent lots of time prospecting for rare plants in NE Texas, SE Oklahoma, and SW Arkansas.  I have never seen S. minor in Choctaw County.  The furthest west I have seen it along the Red River floodplain is about 1 mile N of the intersection of FM 1159 and CR 3240 in Red River County, Texas.

I will say that the presence of the seed weevil Caryobruchus gleditsiae in the Red River County and McCurtain County populations leads me to believe that these are not disjunct outliers, but rather northwestern parts of a more or less continuous population extending Gulfwards, probably including many sites that are just too mucky for humans to easily explore.  In Dallas County, Texas, where I live now, C. gleditsiae is present in native populations of S. minor, but I have never seen it in cultivated palms, even in sites such as the Dallas Zoo and Dallas Discovery Gardens, which are each located within around 5-10 miles of native S. minor.  If the presence of C. gleditsiae does indicate that the populations are part of a greater whole, much of which is largely undocumented due to inhospitable, mucky soils, then the population could extend to Choctaw County, Oklahoma and possibly Lamar County, Texas.

Sabal minor grows further north and in marginally colder sites in the Little River drainage in McCurtain County.  A plant that thrives in similar conditions is Hymenocallis lifiosme, and the largest population I have ever seen of that species is in Hopkins County, Texas extending for several miles along SH 19 between Sulphur Springs and the Delta County line.  Since Hopkins County is due south of Choctaw and Lamar, with similar average rainfall, it seems that there is no climatic hindrance.  I have seen S. minor near Johntown in southern Red River County, but it is not officially documented as growing in the Sulphur River floodplain, so just because no herbarium specimens exist for Choctaw County doesn’t mean absolutely that it’s not there.

[JeffinGarland]

On 7/25/2018, 8:24:29, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

@PalmTreeDude  Don't get too excited. Oklahoma doesn't have mountains.  They barely qualify as miniature hills.

Actually, in the Ouachitas, the tops of the ridges are 2500+’ asl, and that’s rising above river bottoms that are ≈500’ asl.  With 2000’ of vertical rise, I believe they qualify as mountains.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

More pics from today. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

[PalmTreeDude]

14 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Dang that last one has a tall seed stalk! Are you collecting seeds or do those ripen later in October? 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

It appears that someone has been spreading seed out to help the colony grow. There were thousands and thousands of very young plants. 

[kinzyjr]

10 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

It appears that someone has been spreading seed out to help the colony grow. There were thousands and thousands of very young plants.

I wish I could claim responsibility for that, but either way, I'm grateful that whoever it is did it.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

There was ample seedling growth in and around the mature plants but at the back of the colony there was a big patch of perhaps a thousand seedlings hundreds of yards from the nearest flowering plant. It didnt look natural to me. 

[WSimpson]

There are some huge ones that Gary Hollar found in Eastern NC . Hyde County to be exact .

For more pictures check out his  website at  http://www.garysnursery.com

Will

 

[WSimpson]

Sorry , I meant to post this picture in the northern most Minor range subject  .

Will