Where is Central Florida ?

[Bill H2DB]

    While it is a indefinite area , I wonder where it perceived to be by those not living in the general area .

Economic ties are one thing , but climate-wise etc are another .   When I was young , the Daytona area was much more

tied to Jacksonvile in many ways economically than now , as the growth of the I-4 corridor has changed everything .

   I prefer to refer to sub-divisions such as  N. Central ,  S. Central , and even W. Central etc .

It does seem that from afar , Florida ( as are many other places ), is seen as one amorphous place .

  

Here is the Wikipedia article .  Needs some input .

Conspicuously absent is Highlands County , for example .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Florida

 

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

I feel like it's anywhere north of Lake Okeechobee and south of Gainesville, though the northern line is a little more fuzzy in my mind than the southern line.

[RedRabbit]

This is how I would draw the boundaries:

 

[PalmTreeDude]

Here is how I see it. 

[kinzyjr]

The lines are a little fuzzy, but most people consider the I-4 corridor the epicenter of Central Florida.  There are varying ranges to the north and the south, depending on the individual.  Some used to classify it more by climate than by latitude, but it becomes a little ambiguous with outlier climates like St. Pete Beach.

@PalmTreeDude & @RedRabbit Love the maps!

[ThePalmNovice]

Central Florida is usually defined as being the area sounding Tampa, Orlando, and Cape Canaveral. Generally if you need to go to the nearest city and you drive to one of these areas then your in Central Florida. If instead you go to Jacksonville, Ft. Myers, or the Miami metro your not. Almost all definitions of Central Florida include the counties touching Orange (Orlando) and Hillsborough (Tampa) counties at a minimum. Beyond that the region starts to blur once you reach the rural communities between North/South and Central Florida. 

For example if your town is halfway between Orlando and Jacksonville, are you in North or Central Florida? That usually depends on the person. The map below shows the minimum and maximum extent of Central Florida according to the various sources I've seen before. 

Personally if I had to create a solid border for Central Florida I would define it like so.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1j0ga7RQ8xqvm2J6AcLhcWNV9boM&usp=sharing

On the southern border I'd start at Sebastian inlet and work my way inland. Sebastian seems like the best place to start as that's the beginning of the "Treasure Coast" which seems more connected with Northern Palm Beach than Orlando. I could possibly include Vero Beach as Central Florida, but definitely not further south than that. I still consider everything on Lake Okeechobee to be South Florida, though the Sebring area is more economically and geographically tied to C. Florida. The Gulf coast could be divided anywhere between Sarasota and Port Charlotte, so I went halfway with Venice, Florida. 

I'd put Crystal River as the northwestern extent of C. Florida, as that's as far out as people in Tampa tend to make day trips. Ocala and Daytona Beach are the hardest to decide on. Culturally their more North Florida, but thanks to the I-4 corridor they're easier to reach from Orlando. I'd include them as Central Florida simply because their more economically tied to Orlando than Jacksonville. Thus I defined the northern border as a line running through Ocala National Forest and Marineland. 

Again that's just my opinion I'm sure others would disagree. Climate wise Central Florida fits more or less within the USDA "9B Zone" in the state, though the beaches tend to have cold 10A microclimates. We get hot humid summers and very mild winters. Our winters would almost put us in a solid 10A/B Zone, if it wasn't for nasty cold fronts that ruin it every 5 to 10 years. Solidly 9A or 10A Zones tend to be in North and South Florida respectively.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by ThePalmNovice

[Bill H2DB]

   University of South Florida-- Tampa .

   Florida Southern College  -- Lakeland 

[kinzyjr]

6 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

   University of South Florida-- Tampa .

   Florida Southern College  -- Lakeland 

 I wouldn't go by word Southern in Florida Southern College.  I live near there.  In 2010, they lost bottle palms down there.  They almost lost a bismarckia nobilis as well.  The Bizzy has recovered from complete defoliation and grown exponentially since then.  Definitely not the type of place I'd personally consider South Florida.  As the other commenters have shown though, each to their own.

[PalmTreeDude]

21 hours ago, ThePalmNovice said:

Central Florida is usually defined as being the area sounding Tampa, Orlando, and Cape Canaveral. Generally if you need to go to the nearest city and you drive to one of these areas then your in Central Florida. If instead you go to Jacksonville, Ft. Myers, or the Miami metro your not. Almost all definitions of Central Florida include the counties touching Orange (Orlando) and Hillsborough (Tampa) counties at a minimum. Beyond that the region starts to blur once you reach the rural communities between North/South and Central Florida. 

For example if your town is halfway between Orlando and Jacksonville, are you in North or Central Florida? That usually depends on the person. The map below shows the minimum and maximum extent of Central Florida according to the various sources I've seen before. 

Personally if I had to create a solid border for Central Florida I would define it like so.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1j0ga7RQ8xqvm2J6AcLhcWNV9boM&usp=sharing

On the southern border I'd start at Sebastian inlet and work my way inland. Sebastian seems like the best place to start as that's the beginning of the "Treasure Coast" which seems more connected with Northern Palm Beach than Orlando. I could possibly include Vero Beach as Central Florida, but definitely not further south than that. I still consider everything on Lake Okeechobee to be South Florida, though the Sebring area is more economically and geographically tied to C. Florida. The Gulf coast could be divided anywhere between Sarasota and Port Charlotte, so I went halfway with Venice, Florida. 

I'd put Crystal River as the northwestern extent of C. Florida, as that's as far out as people in Tampa tend to make day trips. Ocala and Daytona Beach are the hardest to decide on. Culturally their more North Florida, but thanks to the I-4 corridor they're easier to reach from Orlando. I'd include them as Central Florida simply because their more economically tied to Orlando than Jacksonville. Thus I defined the northern border as a line running through Ocala National Forest and Marineland. 

Again that's just my opinion I'm sure others would disagree. Climate wise Central Florida fits more or less within the USDA "9B Zone" in the state, though the beaches tend to have cold 10A microclimates. We get hot humid summers and very mild winters. Our winters would almost put us in a solid 10A/B Zone, if it wasn't for nasty cold fronts that ruin it every 5 to 10 years. Solidly 9A or 10A Zones tend to be in North and South Florida respectively.

 

I would definitely say most of Central Florida is in 9b, with the northern limits is Central Florida boardering 9b/9a and the southern parts in 10a or boardering 9b/10a.

[RedRabbit]

22 hours ago, ThePalmNovice said:

Central Florida is usually defined as being the area sounding Tampa, Orlando, and Cape Canaveral. Generally if you need to go to the nearest city and you drive to one of these areas then your in Central Florida. If instead you go to Jacksonville, Ft. Myers, or the Miami metro your not. Almost all definitions of Central Florida include the counties touching Orange (Orlando) and Hillsborough (Tampa) counties at a minimum. Beyond that the region starts to blur once you reach the rural communities between North/South and Central Florida. 

For example if your town is halfway between Orlando and Jacksonville, are you in North or Central Florida? That usually depends on the person. The map below shows the minimum and maximum extent of Central Florida according to the various sources I've seen before. 

Personally if I had to create a solid border for Central Florida I would define it like so.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1j0ga7RQ8xqvm2J6AcLhcWNV9boM&usp=sharing

On the southern border I'd start at Sebastian inlet and work my way inland. Sebastian seems like the best place to start as that's the beginning of the "Treasure Coast" which seems more connected with Northern Palm Beach than Orlando. I could possibly include Vero Beach as Central Florida, but definitely not further south than that. I still consider everything on Lake Okeechobee to be South Florida, though the Sebring area is more economically and geographically tied to C. Florida. The Gulf coast could be divided anywhere between Sarasota and Port Charlotte, so I went halfway with Venice, Florida. 

I'd put Crystal River as the northwestern extent of C. Florida, as that's as far out as people in Tampa tend to make day trips. Ocala and Daytona Beach are the hardest to decide on. Culturally their more North Florida, but thanks to the I-4 corridor they're easier to reach from Orlando. I'd include them as Central Florida simply because their more economically tied to Orlando than Jacksonville. Thus I defined the northern border as a line running through Ocala National Forest and Marineland. 

You and I are looking at it the same way. I associate Central Florida with the Orlando, Daytona Beach, Melbourne, Lakeland, and Bradenton/Sarasota metro areas. I consider Martin and St. Lucie counties part of South Florida since they're more closely associated with West Palm Beach. 

The one I think is most debatable is Bradenton/Sarasota. You could either say its an extension of the Tampa Bay area or its own thing in which case an argument for South Florida would be compelling. Climate wise much of that area is more consistent with South Florida.

It probably sounds weird, but I wouldn't necessarily consider Highlands and Okeechobee counties part of either Central or South Florida.

8 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

   University of South Florida-- Tampa .

   Florida Southern College  -- Lakeland 

USF is just called that because it was the most southern public university in Florida when it was founded. Now it is confusing so they should rename it in my opinion. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by RedRabbit

[donalt]

Difficult to draw on a map. I believe most Floridians would say that Central Florida is comprised of the major cities of Tampa, Orlando, Melbourne/Cape Canaveral, plus all the smaller population centers surrounding them.  If climate was the deciding factor, places like Gainesville,Ocala, Flagler County would be considered more northern Florida. 

[Eric in Orlando]

South of Cedar Key/Ocala/Ormond Beach and north of St. Petersburg/Frostproof/Sebastian

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

 

 

This map, far and away is the most accurate to me when it comes to North, Central, and southern FL.   Orange being North Central/ South Central, and Red/ Deep orange being Central. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

I'm shocked to see so many folks place South Florida so far north. For me, S. FL does not start any further north than Jupiter on the eastern side and south of the Caloosahatchee on the western side. I believe that was the understood division at one time. I know naturalists often opine that S. FL is functionally an island bounded on the north by Lake Okeechobee. I have never in my life heard of Sebastian as the gateway to S. FL! (It's a bit like considering Bakersfield as part of LA :-) )

[Bill H2DB]

10 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I'm shocked to see so many folks place South Florida so far north. For me, S. FL does not start any further north than Jupiter on the eastern side and south of the Caloosahatchee on the western side. I believe that was the understood division at one time. I know naturalists often opine that S. FL is functionally an island bounded on the north by Lake Okeechobee. I have never in my life heard of Sebastian as the gateway to S. FL! (It's a bit like considering Bakersfield as part of LA :-) )

    That's what I was intending to point out , when I started this Thread .    We have a sort of "Climate Creep " . Years ago , there was / (is?) a radio station in Vero Beach , call letters WTTB , which they proudly proclaimed as meaning " Where The Tropics Begin " . 

Many factors , such as the recent string of warm Winters , promotors, advertising , new residents etc all contribute .

   Another related thing is the naming of various things around Florida as  "Caribbean ".  

Of course on the other end , many consider Jacksonville to be the largest city in South Georgia .

Here is a shot of this mornings temps :

Temps 4-8-17 by Bill H, on Flickr

 

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 hour ago, Bill H2DB said:

    That's what I was intending to point out , when I started this Thread .    We have a sort of "Climate Creep " . Years ago , there was / (is?) a radio station in Vero Beach , call letters WTTB , which they proudly proclaimed as meaning " Where The Tropics Begin " . 

Many factors , such as the recent string of warm Winters , promotors, advertising , new residents etc all contribute .

   Another related thing is the naming of various things around Florida as  "Caribbean ".  

Of course on the other end , many consider Jacksonville to be the largest city in South Georgia .

Here is a shot of this mornings temps :

Temps 4-8-17 by Bill H, on Flickr

 

 

I agree. My family is from TRUE South Florida, and there is no way they would accept Vero Beach as a part of their original section of the state. There are so many new yankees every year, though, and I have no doubt that Vero Beach seems tropical when compared to Ohio :-) Also, I love that your map highlights the Glades microclimate SE of Lake Okeechobee on a morning with relatively little exciting air movement across the lake's surface. I think my demarcation stands. S. Florida starts where the shallow(er) coral and year-round warm ocean water begins (at least in the east), which I place in Jupiter, and it starts south of the Caloosahatchee on the west (sorry, Cape Coral: you don't make the cut!), where breeding panthers stop.

[Palmaceae]

6 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I agree. My family is from TRUE South Florida, and there is no way they would accept Vero Beach as a part of their original section of the state. There are so many new yankees every year, though, and I have no doubt that Vero Beach seems tropical when compared to Ohio :-) Also, I love that your map highlights the Glades microclimate SE of Lake Okeechobee on a morning with relatively little exciting air movement across the lake's surface. I think my demarcation stands. S. Florida starts where the shallow(er) coral and year-round warm ocean water begins (at least in the east), which I place in Jupiter, and it starts south of the Caloosahatchee on the west (sorry, Cape Coral: you don't make the cut!), where breeding panthers stop.

Since I live in Cape Coral, I have to disagree with you 

I also considered South of the Calooshatchee was the start of South Florida on the west coast, but most of Cape Coral is south of downtown Ft Myers. I just can't see saying Cape Coral is central Florida. I would say the correct definition is SW Florida.

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 hour ago, Palmaceae said:

Since I live in Cape Coral, I have to disagree with you 

I also considered South of the Calooshatchee was the start of South Florida on the west coast, but most of Cape Coral is south of downtown Ft Myers. I just can't see saying Cape Coral is central Florida. I would say the correct definition is SW Florida.

I know that when we looked at Cape Coral as we prepare to move back to Florida that I did not consider it to be in South Florida. Of course, I think an argument could be made either way, especially if one appeals to latitude. I suppose it's a bit like Pismo Beach in CA: Pismo is north of Point Conception, which is one boundary for SoCal vs. Cental CA, but in its palminess and fantastic winter weather, it always seemed like the start of SoCal in my mind when driving from NorCal down to Santa Barbara. In that sense, I can see Stuart and Cape Coral as the gatekeepers of S. FL, but not Sebastian! ;-)

[ThePalmNovice]

I think a big reason we keep coming up with different borders for Central Florida is is based on what definition you go by. You can define Central Florida along cultural, climate, or geographic lines, but its hard to get one that perfectly fits all three. For example my definition is based on how well connected with the I-4 corridor you are. Under that definition there is no way Port St. Lucie and Cape Coral are part of Central Florida when they are so much closer to Palm Beach and Naples.  

Under a strict climate or cultural definition then yes, I can see why they would be excluded from South Florida. Part of the problem is that the state is so diverse that defining everything by North, South, and Central Florida could be too general. There are a lot of areas in Central and South Florida that look and feel nothing alike, despite being close to one another. If you really wanted to get more accurate, here is a suggestion of mine for how to break up Florida into smaller regions.     

Edited April 9, 2017 by ThePalmNovice

[Palmaceae]

The way I see it is since I can grow the palms that I love, like coconut palms, I live in the area of Florida that is perfect.

[Zeeth]

2 hours ago, ThePalmNovice said:

I think a big reason we keep coming up with different borders for Central Florida is is based on what definition you go by. You can define Central Florida along cultural, climate, or geographic lines, but its hard to get one that perfectly fits all three. For example my definition is based on how well connected with the I-4 corridor you are. Under that definition there is no way Port St. Lucie and Cape Coral are part of Central Florida when they are so much closer to Palm Beach and Naples.  

Under a strict climate or cultural definition then yes, I can see why they would be excluded from South Florida. Part of the problem is that the state is so diverse that defining everything by North, South, and Central Florida could be too general. There are a lot of areas in Central and South Florida that look and feel nothing alike, despite being close to one another. If you really wanted to get more accurate, here is a suggestion of mine for how to break up Florida into smaller regions.     

Some people may disagree with me, but I think this map says it perfectly.

[Cape Garrett]

On 4/8/2017, 2:57:23, Palmaceae said:

Since I live in Cape Coral, I have to disagree with you 

I also considered South of the Calooshatchee was the start of South Florida on the west coast, but most of Cape Coral is south of downtown Ft Myers. I just can't see saying Cape Coral is central Florida. I would say the correct definition is SW Florida.

I live in the Cape too and this is 100% south Florida.  I see it as starting in Charlotte county on the west coast and Martin count on the east coast and the other counties in between and south.  Where one can grow coconut palms long term is south Florida... period!! There is nothing Central Florida about this area.  Landscapes and temperatures for that matter.  The lowest temperature seen here since the big colds of 2010 has been 35 degrees one night in 2011.  Solid zone 10B to 11 the past 7 years.  Normally 10A.  

[Yunder Wækraus]

3 hours ago, Cape Garrett said:

I live in the Cape too and this is 100% south Florida.  I see it as starting in Charlotte county on the west coast and Martin count on the east coast and the other counties in between and south.  Where one can grow coconut palms long term is south Florida... period!! There is nothing Central Florida about this area.  Landscapes and temperatures for that matter.  The lowest temperature seen here since the big colds of 2010 has been 35 degrees one night in 2011.  Solid zone 10B to 11 the past 7 years.  Normally 10A.  

You're appealing to climate rather than geography and history, which is fine. Cape Coral is certainly south of Tampa. I was born in South Florida, where my family has lived for almost a hundred years, and I came very close to purchasing a 4-bedroom home in Cape Coral back in 2015. I absolutely did not consider it a part of South Florida during that time. That doesn't mean it is not so viewed by locals (virtually none of whom is actually local, if you know what I mean). But I think we can all agree that everyone accepts Palm Beach County and points south as S. FL. The answer to where, exactly, C. Florida begins and ends will always say more about the person answering than it will about any objective reality.

[Cape Garrett]

1 hour ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

You're appealing to climate rather than geography and history, which is fine. Cape Coral is certainly south of Tampa. I was born in South Florida, where my family has lived for almost a hundred years, and I came very close to purchasing a 4-bedroom home in Cape Coral back in 2015. I absolutely did not consider it a part of South Florida during that time. That doesn't mean it is not so viewed by locals (virtually none of whom is actually local, if you know what I mean). But I think we can all agree that everyone accepts Palm Beach County and points south as S. FL. The answer to where, exactly, C. Florida begins and ends will always say more about the person answering than it will about any objective reality.

Agree.  South Florida... Palm Beach county and south.  I guess that's why they call this side Southwest Florida.  Hasn't "been around" nearly as long as the southeast  Florida.  At least population wise.

[Chatta]

On 4/3/2017, 12:49:25, Bill H2DB said:

   University of South Florida-- Tampa .

   Florida Southern College  -- Lakeland 

Both of these schools were founded when South Florida was Tampa and the only city that was really south of there was Sarasota and Miami. Now a days we scoff at it being called that.... Just think before the interstate how difficult it was to get anywhere in FL. Hell you know the reason Pinellas split from Hillsborough is because in 1926 it took 2 days to get to Tampa from St. Pete, if you could even get there because the roads were so awful. 

Also to mention I got my Masters from USF. In my major i also studied FSC extensively because it was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. 
Sorry side note.

I live a few miles east of Tarpon Springs... I consider us West Central Florida.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Chatta

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 hour ago, Chatta said:

Both of these schools were founded when South Florida was Tampa and the only city that was really south of there was Sarasota and Miami. Now a days we scoff at it being called that.... Just think before the interstate how difficult it was to get anywhere in FL. Hell you know the reason Pinellas split from Hillsborough is because in 1926 it took 2 days to get to Tampa from St. Pete, if you could even get there because the roads were so awful. 

Also to mention I got my Masters from USF. In my major i also studied FSC extensively because it was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. 
Sorry side note.

I live a few miles east of Tarpon Springs... I consider us West Central Florida.

Today's Floridians have no idea how wild Florida was until just 80 years ago. When my kin endured the hurricane of 1928 in the Glades, they were only a short distance from today's Miami megalopolis. However, back then they might as well have been in the Amazon, and there was no megalopolis in "Miama" (as they called it). I believe it was 3 days before the governor was even aware of the magnitude of the carnage. I had ancestors in South Florida on both sides: my father's mother's father lived on the coast (Dania, I think), and my father's father and five siblings lived in South Bay. The coastal people ventured into the dark heart of Everglades Florida after that storm to aid in recovering bodies, and it was like they had traveled to another country. It's almost impossible to believe how much things have changed since then. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

On 4/20/2017, 10:40:18, Cape Garrett said:

 

[Yunder Wækraus]

Just now, Yunder Wækraus said:

Here's what the map folks have determined, for what it's worth :-)

[RedRabbit]

23 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Today's Floridians have no idea how wild Florida was until just 80 years ago. When my kin endured the hurricane of 1928 in the Glades, they were only a short distance from today's Miami megalopolis. However, back then they might as well have been in the Amazon, and there was no megalopolis in "Miama" (as they called it). I believe it was 3 days before the governor was even aware of the magnitude of the carnage. I had ancestors in South Florida on both sides: my father's mother's father lived on the coast (Dania, I think), and my father's father and five siblings lived in South Bay. The coastal people ventured into the dark heart of Everglades Florida after that storm to aid in recovering bodies, and it was like they had traveled to another country. It's almost impossible to believe how much things have changed since then. 

Funny what a difference AC makes...  

[Chatta]

21 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Funny what a difference AC makes...  

And also Gov. Broward's war on water, which drained most of the everglades and swamps in what is now south florida.

[ThePalmNovice]

On 4/20/2017 2:17:39, Yunder Wækraus said:

You're appealing to climate rather than geography and history, which is fine. Cape Coral is certainly south of Tampa. I was born in South Florida, where my family has lived for almost a hundred years, and I came very close to purchasing a 4-bedroom home in Cape Coral back in 2015. I absolutely did not consider it a part of South Florida during that time. That doesn't mean it is not so viewed by locals (virtually none of whom is actually local, if you know what I mean). But I think we can all agree that everyone accepts Palm Beach County and points south as S. FL. The answer to where, exactly, C. Florida begins and ends will always say more about the person answering than it will about any objective reality.

Surprised you would consider Cape Coral Central Florida while considering Naples to be part of South Florida. Perhaps it's been too long since I was last there, but I don't see a big difference between Naples and Cape Coral on either a cultural, geographic, or climate level. I'd assume people would either include both or exclude both in their definition of Central Florida, not split them apart. Now I have seen people refer to South Florida as being the Miami metro and the Keys only, excluding the treasure and gulf coast all together. I think that definition works fine as long as your going by a cultural definition or splitting Florida into smaller regions than just North, South, and Central. 

Impressed your family has such a long history in South Florida by the way. It's rare to find anyone in the state who's family has lived here for more than 50 years let alone a century. It's amazing to think the changes that must has occurred in their lifetimes. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by ThePalmNovice

[ThePalmNovice]

On 5/1/2017, 9:36:46, Yunder Wækraus said:

Today's Floridians have no idea how wild Florida was until just 80 years ago. When my kin endured the hurricane of 1928 in the Glades, they were only a short distance from today's Miami megalopolis. However, back then they might as well have been in the Amazon, and there was no megalopolis in "Miama" (as they called it). I believe it was 3 days before the governor was even aware of the magnitude of the carnage. I had ancestors in South Florida on both sides: my father's mother's father lived on the coast (Dania, I think), and my father's father and five siblings lived in South Bay. The coastal people ventured into the dark heart of Everglades Florida after that storm to aid in recovering bodies, and it was like they had traveled to another country. It's almost impossible to believe how much things have changed since then. 

I love learning about Florida history for things like this. Not many places in the world have undergone such dramatic change in such a short period of time. That's why you sometimes end up with strange geographic and cultural quirks that defy traditional stereotypes. For example here in Osceola county we actually have a real cowboy culture just a few miles south of cosmopolitan downtown Orlando. I've seen locals claim that the area has had cowboys working in it further back than Texas.

Fun fact, the the largest cow ranch in the United States is located only 7 miles outside Orlando international airport.  

[Yunder Wækraus]

19 hours ago, ThePalmNovice said:

I love learning about Florida history for things like this. Not many places in the world have undergone such dramatic change in such a short period of time. That's why you sometimes end up with strange geographic and cultural quirks that defy traditional stereotypes. For example here in Osceola county we actually have a real cowboy culture just a few miles south of cosmopolitan downtown Orlando. I've seen locals claim that the area has had cowboys working in it further back than Texas.

Fun fact, the the largest cow ranch in the United States is located only 7 miles outside Orlando international airport.  

Yep. In the 1890s (if I recall correctly), FL was the largest exporter of cattle in the country! Look up Remington's drawings of FL Cracker "cow hunters" for an eye-opening introduction to FL cattle history. My uncle had a small cattle ranch on Fisheating Creek in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and its actual name was Cracker Haven :-) Regarding Cape Coral: I suppose my idiosyncratic boundary can be blamed on the Caloosahatchee river, which I always felt divided Central FL (full of terrible sandy soil and dominated by citrus and cattle) from South FL (dominated by tropical plants, sugarcane, and muck soill around the lake). Obviously, there's a lot of citrus, cattle, and sand soil south of that river (though I don't think there is much muck or sugarcane to its north), so my feelings only make sense if viewed from the perspective of the drive from South Bay to Okeechobee around the west side of the lake. The map makers don't agree with me, so I suppose I shall admit defeat and accept their arbitrary division by counties rather than rivers :-)