Naturalized Needle Palms?

[PalmTreeDude]

Anyone's Needle Palms naturalizing? Mine are just suckering, like usual but are anyone's full blown naturalizing? Like producing seed and srpouting?

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

It takes two to tango so to speak and my giant needles (3'+ of trunk) rarely flower.

[Laaz]

Mine flower every year, but they're native here...

[smithgn]

I would imagine Needle Palms are pretty slow at reproduction just by looking at their native range and how painstakingly slow growers they are. Plus, as Joseph mentioned, they're dioecious. I thought needles were only prevalent down towards Hilton Head/Bluffton area of the state, Laaz? Are there some around you? It would be neat to spot some in the wild; I feel like they're incredibly rare. 

[PalmatierMeg]

This is a relict palm (a palm that was once abundant and widespread but is in decline because of habitat or climate change) that, barring human intervention, may be headed toward extinction. For whatever reason, in many populations, individual palms flower and set seeds infrequently. As I've also discovered, germination rates of those seeds are low. Fortunately, people like those on PT care enough about this species to grow it. I have had trouble keeping them alive (I believe my winters are not cold enough for them to thrive) but have found some success growing one next to the house in shade (my ferocious summer sun burns them up). This is a beautiful palm and I hope this species survives into the future.

I've read that fruits of the needle palm were fodder for a now-extinct giant sloth during the Pleistocene and that the loss of this mammal contributed to the decline of needle palms because the seeds needed to pass through its gut to germinate well. Bears may also eat the fruit but apparently not enough to make a difference.

[Hillizard]

I rescued my needle palm from the dark corner of a nursery shop in Sonoma County where it had been languishing years ago. It has done well here in NorCal in the ground, shielded from hot afternoon sun. But though it's bloomed for years, it will never set seeds: http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Rhapidophyllum_hystrix: "The species is dioecious, with separate male and female trees."  Regardless, it's a beautiful palm!

[Laaz]

You need both sexes to set seed. Mine are both in full sun & flawless. They are very easy to grow from suckers. They do like wet feet & grow in standing swamps.

[smithgn]

4 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

This is a relict palm (a palm that was once abundant and widespread but is in decline because of habitat or climate change) that, barring human intervention, may be headed toward extinction. For whatever reason, in many populations, individual palms flower and set seeds infrequently. As I've also discovered, germination rates of those seeds are low. Fortunately, people like those on PT care enough about this species to grow it. I have had trouble keeping them alive (I believe my winters are not cold enough for them to thrive) but have found some success growing one next to the house in shade (my ferocious summer sun burns them up). This is a beautiful palm and I hope this species survives into the future.

I've read that fruits of the needle palm were fodder for a now-extinct giant sloth during the Pleistocene and that the loss of this mammal contributed to the decline of needle palms because the seeds needed to pass through its gut to germinate well. Bears may also eat the fruit but apparently not enough to make a difference.

I may have to incorporate a few more Needles in my yard now having read this. Sad to hear they're possibly on the decline. And of course, the areas in which they're native (that i know of) are experiencing explosive growth. Although, this is true of almost any subtropical area in the southeast. Palms getting wiped out for quick development and transportation projects. It makes me cringe thinking about how many sabal minors are plowed over in the Charleston and Myrtle Beach areas...

One of my palm mentors here said he caught wind that the director of Riverbanks zoo (who is also a palm lover; and if you don't believe me, juts pay a visit to Columbia's zoo) knew of an area in South Carolina where there was a monster Needle Palm growing wild. He sent him a letter and asking its whereabouts so he could take pictures and see it in person. The director of the zoo sent him a letter back saying that he didn't feel comfortable disclosing where this Needle was, basically implying that he might try to transplant it or take seed from it. Even then, 30-40 years ago, this palm seemed to be rather rare and those who knew about it, were tight lipped about its whereabouts.

[Yunder Wækraus]

9 minutes ago, smithgn said:

I may have to incorporate a few more Needles in my yard now having read this. Sad to hear they're possibly on the decline. And of course, the areas in which they're native (that i know of) are experiencing explosive growth. Although, this is true of almost any subtropical area in the southeast. Palms getting wiped out for quick development and transportation projects. It makes me cringe thinking about how many sabal minors are plowed over in the Charleston and Myrtle Beach areas...

One of my palm mentors here said he caught wind that the director of Riverbanks zoo (who is also a palm lover; and if you don't believe me, juts pay a visit to Columbia's zoo) knew of an area in South Carolina where there was a monster Needle Palm growing wild. He sent him a letter and asking its whereabouts so he could take pictures and see it in person. The director of the zoo sent him a letter back saying that he didn't feel comfortable disclosing where this Needle was, basically implying that he might try to transplant it or take seed from it. Even then, 30-40 years ago, this palm seemed to be rather rare and those who knew about it, were tight lipped about its whereabouts.

Man, I wonder how big it was. I think it's a magnificent palm that rarely gets credit for its beauty.

[PalmTreeDude]

15 hours ago, smithgn said:

I would imagine Needle Palms are pretty slow at reproduction just by looking at their native range and how painstakingly slow growers they are. Plus, as Joseph mentioned, they're dioecious. I thought needles were only prevalent down towards Hilton Head/Bluffton area of the state, Laaz? Are there some around you? It would be neat to spot some in the wild; I feel like they're incredibly rare. 

On Hilton Head Island they got them, they are not everywhere like Saw palmetto, Sabal palmetto, and Sabal minor, but they are there growing tucked away. I only saw a few here in there growing naturally the whole time I was there. Mainly in a nature preserve. 

[kinzyjr]

They are wonderful plants, but slow growers and very slow reproducers as is mentioned above.  I keep one in a semi-shaded spot on the north side of the house.  I need a few more to have a chance at seeing children any time soon.  I had heard stories about them setting fruit in more northerly locales like NC, VA, MD, and NJ.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

The biggest needle i have seen was off the beaten path at leu gardens. We spotted a few 5 footers and came across one with right at 6'ct.  I can't imagine a needle any bigger that specimen.

[smithgn]

On 6/12/2017, 4:07:59, Yunder Wækraus said:

Man, I wonder how big it was. I think it's a magnificent palm that rarely gets credit for its beauty.

We can only wonder...  At first, I didn't care for it so much but I think unique palm and deserves a spot in most landscapes.

2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The biggest needle i have seen was off the beaten path at leu gardens. We spotted a few 5 footers and came across one with right at 6'ct.  I can't imagine a needle any bigger that specimen.

You must never have seen Gayland Penny's Needle... He has one pictured on his website, but I have a picture of me standing next to it a few summers ago which shows how large it is. Gayland is a jokester, but I don't think he was joking when he told me he had the biggest Needle in the southeast (that he knows of).

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

9 hours ago, smithgn said:

We can only wonder...  At first, I didn't care for it so much but I think unique palm and deserves a spot in most landscapes.

You must never have seen Gayland Penny's Needle... He has one pictured on his website, but I have a picture of me standing next to it a few summers ago which shows how large it is. Gayland is a jokester, but I don't think he was joking when he told me he had the biggest Needle in the southeast (that he knows of).

o

9 hours ago, smithgn said:

We can only wonder...  At first, I didn't care for it so much but I think unique palm and deserves a spot in most landscapes.

You must never have seen Gayland Penny's Needle... He has one pictured on his website, but I have a picture of me standing next to it a few summers ago which shows how large it is. Gayland is a jokester, but I don't think he was joking when he told me he had the biggest Needle in the southeast (that he knows of).

I just looked at the website. The one at leu gardens is taller, but not as bushy.  Ill fine the pic and attach.  

[hbernstein]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the scientific meaning of relictual mean formerly much more widespread? It might be true that the Needle Palm is missing the primary disperser of its seeds, but I think that the greatest cause of its decline is habitat loss, not any difficulty surviving since the last glacial retreat from the Southeastern U.S. I've seen many wild populations. Wherever there are mature adults, there doesn't seem to be any lack of juveniles. They may grow slowly and reproduce even slower, but in their most favored  (and spectacular) niche, on slopes above river floodplains, they seem to do very well.

 

Like cycads and many other species, they exist on another time schedule than humans or other short-lived, quick-reproducing organisms. 

[PalmTreeDude]

Some of the comments lead me to the question, do their roots survive freezes in habitats where they are in water? 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Ive had needles in pots that froze solid without issue. Same with nannorhorps and sabal minor. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

17 hours ago, hbernstein said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the scientific meaning of relictual mean formerly much more widespread? It might be true that the Needle Palm is missing the primary disperser of its seeds, but I think that the greatest cause of its decline is habitat loss, not any difficulty surviving since the last glacial retreat from the Southeastern U.S. I've seen many wild populations. Wherever there are mature adults, there doesn't seem to be any lack of juveniles. They may grow slowly and reproduce even slower, but in their most favored  (and spectacular) niche, on slopes above river floodplains, they seem to do very well.

 

Like cycads and many other species, they exist on another time schedule than humans or other short-lived, quick-reproducing organisms. 

I think the keywords in your statement were "[w]herever there are mature adults, there doesn't seem to be any lack of juveniles." There are many plants in the world for which the primary means of long-distance dispersal might be one or more animal species. I cannot say for sure that the loss of giant sloths constituted the loss of the primary animal species on which the needle palm relied for dispersal. In fact, I highly doubt that the sloth would have been the primary means of such dispersal because sloths only entered North America after the geologically recent collision of our continent with South America. But it is possible that the needle palm might have lost multiple animal species on which it has depended over the millennia, and if this is true, such a situation would explain the relative rarity of juvenile recruits for the species at great distances from an adult specimen.

[smithgn]

21 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

o

I just looked at the website. The one at leu gardens is taller, but not as bushy.  Ill fine the pic and attach.  

Sorry, I didnt mean to come across as a "one-upper" Lol. I use to have a picture of me standing next to it but I can't seem to locate it. Here's a better picture I took in the spring of last year. I'm 6 feet tall and I know it's about the same height, if not taller than I am. 

I'd be interested to see the one at Leu; I think I would like the less bushy look better, but as you can see, Gaylands Needle is a great place for a microclimate. He has a Livistona Chinensis tucked away somewhere. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by smithgn

[Yunder Wækraus]

5 minutes ago, smithgn said:

Sorry, I didnt mean to come across as a "one-upper" Lol. I use to have a picture of me standing next to it but I can't seem to locate it. Here's a better picture I took in the spring of last year. I'm 6 feet tall and I know it's about the same height, if not taller than I am. 

I'd be interested to see the one at Leu; I think I would like the less bushy look better, but as you can see, Gaylands Needle is a great place for a microclimate. He has a Livistona Chinensis tucked away somewhere. 

 

 

Does one this size have a trunk

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Yea,  probably 4-5' of trunk

[NatureGirl]

If you want to see some Needle Palms in Habitat then head to Homosassa Springs Park on the West Coast of Florida. It's a great old Florida attraction wildlife park. Only takes about 2 hrs to go through it, and they rehabilitate manatees there. 

 

[DoomsDave]

On 6/12/2017, 8:37:25, PalmatierMeg said:

This is a relict palm (a palm that was once abundant and widespread but is in decline because of habitat or climate change) that, barring human intervention, may be headed toward extinction. For whatever reason, in many populations, individual palms flower and set seeds infrequently. As I've also discovered, germination rates of those seeds are low. Fortunately, people like those on PT care enough about this species to grow it. I have had trouble keeping them alive (I believe my winters are not cold enough for them to thrive) but have found some success growing one next to the house in shade (my ferocious summer sun burns them up). This is a beautiful palm and I hope this species survives into the future.

I've read that fruits of the needle palm were fodder for a now-extinct giant sloth during the Pleistocene and that the loss of this mammal contributed to the decline of needle palms because the seeds needed to pass through its gut to germinate well. Bears may also eat the fruit but apparently not enough to make a difference.

I'll have to do my duty and plant some more, in a nice thicket.

[hbernstein]

Anyone know whether Black Bear are dispersers of Rhapidophyllum seed? If so, one would expect them to be more widespread.

[PalmatierMeg]

My impression is that needles are found in small, discrete, spread out populations in several SE states, including FL whereas in the distant past they were much more prevalent and widespread over a much larger geological area. European settlers may have affected their distribution in some eastern flat lands, but the total population of the US in the 18th & 19th centuries was low to very low and shouldn't be held responsible for the decline of this species much as some people love to blame them for any unpleasantness. And over the past millennia, the populations and practices of Native Americans also couldn't have had much impact on needles' issues.

Whether giant sloths assisted in spreading this palm is only a theory, not a proven fact. Same for black bears, whose populations until recent years had been decimated by hunting and in many places are/were low to non-existant. I read a report that someone had reported seeing needle seeds in black bear scat. True? Who really knows?

BTW, I read about the giant sloth connection in a posting on gardenweb.com. It's still up as I found it on Google. How this guy knows or came by his info, I don't  know.

[hbernstein]

The plants would get torn up if bears were regularly eating fruit. I haven't seen that.

[Laaz]

The fruit are tucked in with the "needles" I get impaled every time I harvest seeds.

[Laaz]

Male flowers.

 

 

[Laaz]

Female with developing seeds.

 

[Laaz]

Female left of the mailbox & male to the right back behind the ribbon palm...

 

[DoomsDave]

5 hours ago, NatureGirl said:

If you want to see some Needle Palms in Habitat then head to Homosassa Springs Park on the West Coast of Florida. It's a great old Florida attraction wildlife park. Only takes about 2 hrs to go through it, and they rehabilitate manatees there. 

 

One of my uncles lived right near there, saw that back in 2008. Do they still have that huge hippo there? He was as big as a van.

[PalmatierMeg]

20 hours ago, Laaz said:

The fruit are tucked in with the "needles" I get impaled every time I harvest seeds.

Have you tried using long hemostats to pluck ripe seeds from among the needles? I use them when I week & groom Dyckias and cacti.

20 hours ago, Laaz said:

The fruit are tucked in with the "needles" I get impaled every time I harvest seeds.

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Here is one of the big ones at leu gardens. Wife is 5'5 and despite the photo angle and her reluctance to move in close the growth point was right at or slightly higher than the top of her head

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

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