Is this a Chamaedorea Elegans "Bella"?

[RobustaEnvirons]

Hello everyone! Today while at a local department store I was browsing around the Garden section and I spotted a couple tiny little palms. I instantly thought "Could this be a Chamaedorea Elegans "Bella")? But, I wasn't sure and I'm still not entirely sure of what it is. Right then and there in the store I got on my phone and undertook a bit of "research" and looked up pictures of C. Elegans and compared them, I visited the growers website, scanned the UPC code, and etc. The specimens for sale don't provide any information on their sales tags as to what they are. The grower doesn't provide any real information on them either and only refers to them as "Foilage", which does me no good. Not in the least bit helpful. 

I've been looking into buying Chamaedorea Elegans "Bella" for a little bit of time, so I was excited to possibly see them for sale so affordably. I ended up just going on what info I had and I bought each of the little palms for $2.99 a piece and picked up a 10" pot for $4.99 and proceeded home to pot them up. I asked some friends online and we weren't able to come upon a definite conclusion, but we're farely certain these could be Chamaedorea Elegans "Bella". I realize that this container is probably a little on the large side for both of these right now, but I don't want to have to worry about repotting them for a while. I potted them in Miracle Grow potting mix and I noticed its got Peat and Perlite mixed in. Its a rather standard mix you'll see in their products. I planted them both as a group, right next to each other so as to appear as one. 

What does you guys think? Are these Chamaedorea Elegans "Bella", or another palm? What could they be if not C. Elegans?   

Edited July 13, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[Kai]

Looks more like Dypsis lutescens to me...

[RobustaEnvirons]

5 hours ago, Kai said:

Looks more like Dypsis lutescens to me...

Interesting. What makes you think its Dypsis lutescens? Is there some key identifying traits I should look for? I would be happy with it either way, I enjoy Dypsis lutescens as well too.  

[RobustaEnvirons]

So this is possibly it? http://www.ourhouseplants.com/plants/areca-palm

[Kai]

43 minutes ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

Interesting. What makes you think its Dypsis lutescens? Is there some key identifying traits I should look for? I would be happy with it either way, I enjoy Dypsis lutescens as well too.  

I was just looking at the leafshape. Dypsis lutescens seedlings are sold by the 1000s here in Holland and they look just like it. They are a very efficient greenhouse palm for growers here.

[Pal Meir]

57 minutes ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

So this is possibly it? http://www.ourhouseplants.com/plants/areca-palm

As shown in your link Dypsis (former Chrysalidocarpus) lutescens are sold in nurseries as Areca Palm. (The true Areca is a different genus.) Chamaedorea elegans (formerly also Neanthe bella) has small eophylls which are already entirely pinnate and not only bifid.

[Funkthulhu]

I've got no comment on the species, but that pot looks a bit big to me.  

That said, I bought a little 4 dollar cluster of nigh-identical tiny "foliage" about 2 years ago: 

Now it's throwing 2+ foot fronds and probably needs a repotting.  

Hope you have fun with it!

[PalmatierMeg]

I'm having trouble telling what those palms are from the photo as I'm visually impaired. But if they are Chamaedorea elegans (dark green fernlike leaves), be aware that it is a solitary palm that is sold in stores as an artificially clustered one. Leaving it/them as you bought them does this lovely little species a disservice. What I did in the past was separate each tiny seedling (35-40 per clump) and pot them up. As they grow you till see what a lovely palm it really is and they will be happier and healthier for it. I have 2-3' adult palms planted in my back yard and placed in pots between chairs on the front porch. All came from a $3-4 pot of crowded seedlings bought at a BB garden center.

If yours are actually Dypsis lutescens (light green leaves, yellow, speckled stems), they are also sold artificially clustered. Tiny golden palm seedlings aren't large enough to cluster yet. If you leave them the way they are, they will compete with each other until the vast majority die off. Survivors will try to cluster until you have an unsightly mass of tangled stems. That ragged, impenetrable appearance is a main reason why so many people loathe this species. I suggest you separate each palm and pot it. This is actually a very beautiful, colorful palm when you can actually see it. And, occasionally, one of them is solitary rather than clustering. I like those best of all.

[BPK Palm Addict]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I'm having trouble telling what those palms are from the photo as I'm visually impaired. But if they are Chamaedorea elegans (dark green fernlike leaves), be aware that it is a solitary palm that is sold in stores as an artificially clustered one. Leaving it/them as you bought them does this lovely little species a disservice. What I did in the past was separate each tiny seedling (35-40 per clump) and pot them up. As they grow you till see what a lovely palm it really is and they will be happier and healthier for it. I have 2-3' adult palms planted in my back yard and placed in pots between chairs on the front porch. All came from a $3-4 pot of crowded seedlings bought at a BB garden center.

If yours are actually Dypsis lutescens (light green leaves, yellow, speckled stems), they are also sold artificially clustered. Tiny golden palm seedlings aren't large enough to cluster yet. If you leave them the way they are, they will compete with each other until the vast majority die off. Survivors will try to cluster until you have an unsightly mass of tangled stems. That ragged, impenetrable appearance is a main reason why so many people loathe this species. I suggest you separate each palm and pot it. This is actually a very beautiful, colorful palm when you can actually see it. And, occasionally, one of them is solitary rather than clustering. I like those best of all.

Meg, could you please post some pictures of the larger ones you have planted in your yard?

Thanks,

Joe

[Pal Meir]

@RobustaEnvirons As Kai already wrote your palms are Dypsis lutescens; anyway they can NOT be Chamaedorea elegans. And they are heavily clustering palms, even one individual can fill your pot … 

@Funkthulhu Yes, your palms are really Chamaedorea elegans and looking very happy. 

[RobustaEnvirons]

56 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

@RobustaEnvirons As Kai already wrote your palms are Dypsis lutescens; anyway they can NOT be Chamaedorea elegans. And they are heavily clustering palms, even one individual cacan fill your....

I understand that they are not C Elegans. That's fine. So I should split them all up then? How many should I plant in a single pot? How large a pot should I put them in? Is a 5in pot okay? I thought they grow in a cluster? So that made me think I should have them in a cluster like that. 

How much light do they require? How much water? 

Edited July 13, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[RobustaEnvirons]

@Pal Meir Should I put a single seedling in its own pot then? Or should I put 2-3 individual seedlings in a pot? Would a 1Gal container be okay to use? They would grow into it I'd imagine. Or should I put 1 in a small container and then step it up into gradually larger containers as it grows? 

I've read they don't like to have their roots disturbed and or handled. This would undoubtedly by something that happens if I re-pot them. 

[Pal Meir]

25 minutes ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

@Pal Meir Should I put a single seedling in its own pot then? Or should I put 2-3 individual seedlings in a pot? Would a 1Gal container be okay to use? They would grow into it I'd imagine. Or should I put 1 in a small container and then step it up into gradually larger containers as it grows? 

I've read they don't like to have their roots disturbed and or handled. This would undoubtedly by something that happens if I re-pot them. 

So many questions, but don’t worry, they are very tough even if the roots get disturbed. As you have soooo many plants you can experiment like you wish. But I would use at first smaller pots. Those young seedlings don’t like too much direct sun. — I am sorry I didn’t find a better photo of my D lutescens (two individuals in one pot) when it was still in a living room (later I had to stand it into a staircase because it became much too tall), but you can see it is also happy even inside a relatively dark place quite far from the window:

[knell]

8 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

As shown in your link Dypsis (former Chrysalidocarpus) lutescens are sold in nurseries as Areca Palm. (The true Areca is a different genus.) Chamaedorea elegans (formerly also Neanthe bella) has small eophylls which are already entirely pinnate and not only bifid.

I dont see any bifid leaves in the pictures though, they look like C. elegans to me... D. lutescens usually stretches much taller than that before going pinnate, as well.

[Pal Meir]

31 minutes ago, knell said:

I dont see any bifid leaves in the pictures though, they look like C. elegans to me... D. lutescens usually stretches much taller than that before going pinnate, as well.

Oh dear me! My eyes are going bad!  You are right, the leaves are ALL pinnate; so @RobustaEnvirons forget what I said about D lutescens and forgive me!  I had to enlarge the pics before I gave my ID …  It IS Ch elegans, your Bellissima … 

[RobustaEnvirons]

@Pal Meir Its okay. I understand, this palm has been a mystery and quite baffling from the start. So its C. Elegans then? Well, so should I still separate them or leave them all as-is (in their group formation)? I haven't touched them yet. They're still in their 10inch pot together. Since they aren't D. lutscens I wonder. 

With C.Elegans I know they're sold as a bunch (or grouping) like that. So I could just leave them as they are now. And I could just let them do what they do. I have only $5.99 invested into them. 

[RobustaEnvirons]

I'm glad I came to PalmTalk. I knew everybody would be able to give me a little insight into these. Especially Pal Meir, as I know he knows his palms!

Edited July 14, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[PalmatierMeg]

Do what you want with them. You haven't invested a fortune. I made the point they are solitary palms, which many people don't know, because growers abuse them by artificially clustering them. But for a more pleasing arrangement you probably should give each one more space to grow in their pot(s). Sticking them in a large pot as they are looks weird. They are way overpotted in that 10" and grow so slowly they won't grow into it for years. And overpotting can cause more problems than underpotting.

[Funkthulhu]

@Pal Meir thanks!  I always suspected C.elegans, but now I can officially add that to my species list!

[RobustaEnvirons]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Do what you want with them. You haven't invested a fortune. I made the point they are solitary palms, which many people don't know, because growers abuse them by artificially clustering them. But for a more pleasing arrangement you probably should give each one more space to grow in their pot(s). Sticking them in a large pot as they are looks weird. They are way overpotted in that 10" and grow so slowly they won't grow into it for years. And overpotting can cause more problems than underpotting.

What size pot should I put a group like that in? I have a 5in pot at home. Or, I could run out and buy a smaller pot for them, maybe a 2in or 3in pot? 

[PalmatierMeg]

If you want to leave them in their clumps figure one 6" standard pot for each clump. If you want to separate them more, use 4" standard pots for each 3 or 4. Remember palms like deeper pots so 2" or 3" pots will be too shallow. Don't overthink this. Experiment a little. These aren't Tahinas.

[RobustaEnvirons]

38 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

If you want to leave them in their clumps figure one 6" standard pot for each clump. If you want to separate them more, use 4" standard pots for each 3 or 4. Remember palms like deeper pots so 2" or 3" pots will be too shallow. Don't overthink this. Experiment a little. These aren't Tahinas.

Yes I'd actually just leave them in their clump form. I didn't notice your last post in Time and I went ahead and re-potted them both (both clumps) into a 7.25in X 6.4in pot. I then saw your post to seperate both clumps into their own 6in pots! Woops! 

So now they're in this one pot. I could go to the store, buy 2 5inch pots, dig them up once up again, and put each clump into their own 5in pot? Or, one option is to leave them? I just don't ever know what to do. I'm always so worried about which road to take when it comes to containers and specimens. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Let them be at this point.

[Pal Meir]

Here on this pic are only!? five individual Ch elegans planted together in one pot (*1962, *1970, 3x*1972); what will you do with your 100 (?) palms later? The later the more troublesome will be the separating and repotting …… 

[RobustaEnvirons]

1 hour ago, Pal Meir said:

Here on this pic are only!? five individual Ch elegans planted together in one pot (*1962, *1970, 3x*1972); what will you do with your 100 (?) palms later? The later the more troublesome will be the separating and repotting …… 

Well, see...I actually tried to separate each individual palm seedling from each of the two bunches like you've suggested. But when I attempted this the small roots of all of them were so interspliced together that I wasn't able to get them lose. As I tried to separate each, I could feel and hear the roots ripping slightly. They also wouldn't let go of each other. I could easily identify each seedling, but the roots were interweaved (meshed) together as one. I worried about breaking their root systems. It isn't worth it for me to  jeopardize them. So I figured I'll just keep them in their present clump formation, but put them in a small pot (the 7.25in pot).

I've seen them where they're clumped together and in a pot. I think their was one guy on here that posted a picture of his potted Chamaedorea Elegans. 

I don't know. We'll see what happens, and how they progress. Perhaps some will just die off and then only a select few will remain. So essentially self-regulating their numbers. They sell Chamaedorea Elegans on EBay & Amazon already in a thriving clumped formation, and much more developed. They sell those for $15.

But, I'll just leave them be for now.  I guess we'll see what happens. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[Missi]

On 7/15/2017, 12:54:21, RobustaEnvirons said:

Well, see...I actually tried to separate each individual palm seedling from each of the two bunches like you've suggested. But when I attempted this the small roots of all of them were so interspliced together that I wasn't able to get them lose. As I tried to separate each, I could feel and hear the roots ripping slightly. They also wouldn't let go of each other. I could easily identify each seedling, but the roots were interweaved (meshed) together as one. I worried about breaking their root systems. It isn't worth it for me to  jeopardize them. So I figured I'll just keep them in their present clump formation, but put them in a small pot (the 7.25in pot).

I've seen them where they're clumped together and in a pot. I think their was one guy on here that posted a picture of his potted Chamaedorea Elegans. 

I don't know. We'll see what happens, and how they progress. Perhaps some will just die off and then only a select few will remain. So essentially self-regulating their numbers. They sell Chamaedorea Elegans on EBay & Amazon already in a thriving clumped formation, and much more developed. They sell those for $15.

But, I'll just leave them be for now.  I guess we'll see what happens. 

It's really not a sensitive palm AT ALL. Months ago, I experimented with one pot of multiple seedlings of C. elegans, as well as D. lutescens, for my chameleon's enclosure. I just tore those guys away from each other, and only lost 3 seedlings (C. elegans) out of like 50. No need to baby these guys. As PalmatierMeg advised, don't over-think it.

I'm having a look at your succulent's container thinking it might actually be too deep. Succulents like shallow pots because they have shallow root systems. Also might I suggest a less-humus-y, fast draining substrate, especially if you're going to keep it indoors. The deep pot with humus-y soil will retain moisture and root the delicate roots. The first sign of this will be the dying of the lower leaves.

[PalmatierMeg]

Missi is spot on about the succulent. Pot is way too large & the soil (potting soil?) is too wet & mucky. You need to add perlite or pumice to lighten it and promote drainage. I collect small, rare cacti and I've gone to pretty much pure pumice to pot them so they are less prone to rot. Pumice isn't cheap: I buy mine in 15 lb bags from General Pumice in CA. It's unheard of in FL.

[RobustaEnvirons]

49 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Missi is spot on about the succulent. Pot is way too large & the soil (potting soil?) is too wet & mucky. You need to add perlite or pumice to lighten it and promote drainage. I collect small, rare cacti and I've gone to pretty much pure pumice to pot them so they are less prone to rot. Pumice isn't cheap: I buy mine in 15 lb bags from General Pumice in CA. It's unheard of in FL.

Yes, the Succulent I potted using regular generic potting mix. Later the next day I re-potted it this time I mixed in sand and Perlite.  

 

 

[RobustaEnvirons]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Missi is spot on about the succulent. Pot is way too large & the soil (potting soil?) is too wet & mucky. You need to add perlite or pumice to lighten it and promote drainage. I collect small, rare cacti and I've gone to pretty much pure pumice to pot them so they are less prone to rot. Pumice isn't cheap: I buy mine in 15 lb bags from General Pumice in CA. It's unheard of in FL.

I bought the Succulent as an impulse buy (also my grandma has one and its nice). So for $2.99 I picked it up. I had not done any research into succulents. I assumed they were low-light tolerant, low water tolerant, and easy to grow. I thought they were like palms as well. Now I realize I was rather mistaken. What a folly.

I'm now as I type this trying to re-pot the Succulent. Its bottom leaves are indeed dying (only the bottom ones touching the soil so far). 

It does appear that the soil hasn't dried a bit! Geez! This is frustrating. I'm going to re-pot it in the smallest pot I have. I'll give it a heavy amount of sand & Perlite to help with drainage and lightening the soil. Unfortunately my smallest container is only a 1PT/473ML container. I hope that's small enough for my succulent here.

I see what you mean on how the suculent has shallow roots. Its roots seem to be only about 2inches in length. Its otherwise green and alive. I've kept it on my east-facing window since I re potted it.  

 

[RobustaEnvirons]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Missi is spot on about the succulent. Pot is way too large & the soil (potting soil?) is too wet & mucky. You need to add perlite or pumice to lighten it and promote drainage. I collect small, rare cacti and I've gone to pretty much pure pumice to pot them so they are less prone to rot. Pumice isn't cheap: I buy mine in 15 lb bags from General Pumice in CA. It's unheard of in FL.

Ok, I just got done re-potting my succulent in a fresh potting mix. I mixed in a healthy amount of potting mix, sand, and Perlite. I reused the old potting mix, but added those to help with drainage. I went heavy on the sand and a little bit more perlite than it was previous. I wasn't sure if succulents can handle Perlite?

I gently removed the gross leaves at the bottom. They were gross and squishy. It cleaned it up a little bit. The root ball seems to reach all the way to half of the container, the midway point. How does it look? 

Its now been repotted into a smaller container, and placed in newly mixed soil. Soil that's heavy on the drainage elements. 

Should I water it, or leave it to rely on available water still present in the soil?

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[RobustaEnvirons]

This is how my little suculent looks now that its been re-potted. 

Here's the old 5inch pot it was in (at right), next to the new 1PT/473ML pot. 

Should I not water it then?

Edited July 20, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[Missi]

17 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Missi is spot on about the succulent. Pot is way too large & the soil (potting soil?) is too wet & mucky. You need to add perlite or pumice to lighten it and promote drainage. I collect small, rare cacti and I've gone to pretty much pure pumice to pot them so they are less prone to rot. Pumice isn't cheap: I buy mine in 15 lb bags from General Pumice in CA. It's unheard of in FL.

Do you have a post of your cacti collection somewhere, Meg? 

[Missi]

15 hours ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

his is how my little suculent looks now that its been re-potted. 

Here's the old 5inch pot it was in (at right), next to the new 1PT/473ML pot. 

Should I not water it then?

It is much better, but I still worry about the depth of the pot. I wouldn't water it.

[RobustaEnvirons]

7 minutes ago, Missi said:

It is much better, but I still worry about the depth of the pot. I wouldn't water it.

Well, thats a little relief for me! Thank you. At least I did something on that right. I do wish I'd just kept it in its original flimsy container that it came in at the store. That was a cheap generic plastic container that was not strong, but it was a bit smaller than the 1PT/473ML container I have here. At least its only $2.99 to buy another one. No big thing if it dies. I had no idea they require mass amounts of sunshine.  I wonder how much I trully need to give it? Could it get by with my indirect sunlught coming from my east-facing window? I only have that window to use unfortunatly. I should've known they require copious amounts of sunshine since they're native to the desert. My Washingtonia Robusta is similar in preferance to light requirements.  

But ok, I won't water it right now then. I'll leave it be. Its now got a decent amount of sand & Perlite in its soil. So it should dry out faster and not rot hopefully. If it does well from here on out, when will I know it requires more water? What indicators are there that Succulents need water?

Thanks for your help.   

[PalmatierMeg]

22 hours ago, Missi said:

Do you have a post of your cacti collection somewhere, Meg? 

No, but I'll try to work something up with the rarest later this year.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

Just now saw this thread.    I know it's likely been identified, but they are 100% Chamaedorea Elegans.  I always separate them since they are solitary palms.  Imho they look much better as single specimens or with very few in a pot.

[RobustaEnvirons]

On 7/21/2017, 5:38:21, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Just now saw this thread.    I know it's likely been identified, but they are 100% Chamaedorea Elegans.  I always separate them since they are solitary palms.  Imho they look much better as single specimens or with very few in a pot.

I've personally decided to keep them in their clumped state (as shown). Mainly just because I don't have the multiple containers to put them all in. Nor do I want all those C Elegans specimens sitting around my house, in 5-10 different pots. I originally bought those to have as a single specimen. 

I guess I could just thin out the group by snipping some, when they get too large for the container. I probably have 20-25 C Elegans there in those two combined clumps. If I snip some now, it'll leave only a select few, and then they'll be too few for a pot that size. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

5 hours ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

I've personally decided to keep them in their clumped state (as shown). Mainly just because I don't have the multiple containers to put them all in. Nor do I want all those C Elegans specimens sitting around my house, in 5-10 different pots. I originally bought those to have as a single specimen. 

I guess I could just thin out the group by snipping some, when they get too large for the container. I probably have 20-25 C Elegans there in those two combined clumps. If I snip some now, it'll leave only a select few, and then they'll be too few for a pot that size. 

Hey that is fine too.  They'll be good like that just as well as solitary.  Now, I didn't want to comment further before having read the entire thread, but I do agree with the advice given.  I would downsize the pot again.    The pot you have it in now is the same diced pot I have a nearly 3 foot tall ( 15" of trunk)  1 2 year old specimen in.  C. Elegant like to be somewhat pot bound.     I have also found with this palm, the less you feet over it and worry with it the better.  They are tough little palms.     Best of luck!  please keep us updated.     Also how are your wasys doing?

[RobustaEnvirons]

8 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Hey that is fine too.  They'll be good like that just as well as solitary.  Now, I didn't want to comment further before having read the entire thread, but I do agree with the advice given.  I would downsize the pot again.    The pot you have it in now is the same diced pot I have a nearly 3 foot tall ( 15" of trunk)  1 2 year old specimen in.  C. Elegant like to be somewhat pot bound.     I have also found with this palm, the less you feet over it and worry with it the better.  They are tough little palms.     Best of luck!  please keep us updated.     Also how are your wasys doing?

Thank you for your advice! I appreciate it. So far I have watered them very little (only a little since I wasn't sure how often to water). I now realize that I probably didn't have to water them the other day even a little. I'm used to my W.Robusta! Lol. Well, My C.Elegans (despite being in a pot too large) do still look just as good as they did the day I planted them in that pot. They've actually showed now signs of change. I was kinda worried there for a while, but now I just realize that its how they are. Not much going on with them. Or perhaps they are growing but I just can't tell. I don't know . They are nice palms though. I enjoy seeing them everyday when I get home from work. At least they aren't yellowing or dying off. I guess I probably only need to water about once a month right? 

My Washintonia Robusta are doing quite well! They've been growing just as well as ever. I've given the majority of my Washingtonia to friends and family here in Toledo Ohio for their homes (in the their front living rooms). They've all had them for about a year now and I'm proud to say they're all still alive and well. I wrote up very descriptive instructions on how to care for them when I gave them away to their new owners. I personally check in on them to see how they are every once in a while.

One of my personal Washingtonia is now in a 3 gal pot, and has produced some nice fan leaves. I've got another one that I keep for myself, and its also getting quite large (sprouted in a 1 gal pot in July 2016 from California seed). I still have that one in its 1 gal pot. I want to see how long I can keep it in there before re-potting it too in a 3 gal pot. I always want to push my Washies get the most root density and growth before I re-pot them to the next pot size.        

Here are some pictures of my Washingtonia Robusta these days! I've learned a lot on how to keep them.  

Edited July 23, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons

[RobustaEnvirons]

On 7/15/2017, 11:50:18, Pal Meir said:

Here on this pic are only!? five individual Ch elegans planted together in one pot (*1962, *1970, 3x*1972); what will you do with your 100 (?) palms later? The later the more troublesome will be the separating and repotting …… 

I bought more Chamaedorea Elegans at the grocery store. These were much taller than the ones I got (mentioned previously). They are taller and more mature looking. I tried to follow your guidlines as to pot them up as Solitary palms. I also tried to keep in mind what others on this thread have said about how many to put in a pot for Solitary potting. So I put 3 palms in a 5in pot, spaced decently apart. These are about twice the height of the ones I bought previously, so I had hoped this would be ok to pot them like this. I have much more C. Elegans left over then I want, so I'm making up some for others. 

What do you think? Should I have put 4 palms in that 5in pot? Or was it wise to stay with 3 palms? I know you said they prefer to stay somewhat cramped. 

What do you think? Did I do better this time?