What Is The Absolute Hardiest Coconut Variety?

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017‎ ‎9‎:‎46‎:‎47‎, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

In deed.  There are days that at certain beaches here, where the water is foamy and dark brown.  It is disgusting.  I have seen may videos from both divers and from boats that pass over what everyone here calls the line of death.  I have seen this on land from past trips to FL, but never from the water nor air.  Its truly stunning.  They shoot video from the boat, going along in beautiful crystal clear water, and then you see it in the distance.  I dark line in the water.  They approach then cross it.  Its a stunning and stark difference, and it is grotesque dark brown.   There is at least one Instagram account that posts things like this all the time. I follow them and have or about a year now.  Their name is totalbullsugar.  I would recommend anyone that has any care at all about Florida's environment from lake Okeechobee, to the Everglades, to the surrounding gulf and ocean and their beaches, to follow them.    ( prefer Instagram over facebook as its much better visual content, its photo related / centered and I'm a bit of a photographer myself, and, it is far less chatter.    

Something has to be done and something has to give on both the political front and the environmental one.  We have saved at least one species of everglades palms from people once (  Acoelorrhaphe wrightii)  but with the negative impacts on the glades currently who is to say we may not begin to kill off that palm species again?   We keep abusing mother earth the way we do, and we are going to lose many beautiful things we cannot get back, and quite likely damage things to a point where it will severely negatively impact our very species. 

Ken,

It is truly disgusting how so many Americans either don't give a damn at all, or outright deny that we are destroying this once beautiful planet for the profits of the few.  Take Climate Change for instance.  How anyone can deny what their eyes are showing them and their skin is feeling all the time (greatly increased heat well into the fall and winter on a regular basis now), I don't understand.  They must be totally brain dead or totally owned outright by the petro chemical industry.  The science is literally overwhelming and if anything is not being told to the full extent of the damage!  As an agricultural scientist, naturalist, and amateur weather/climate buff, I literally see evidence every day of Global Warming and Climate Change, but here in Rightwing Redneck Texas where the disgusting oil and gas industries and refineries are literally worshiped, it is very hard to get through to people and reason with them, even when the very future of them, their children, and the planet itself depends on them waking up and pulling their heads out of their asses and taking a stand for what is right!

Back to the water issue, here we are having more frequent red tides and fish kills.  Before I eventually got my degree in Agriculture, I majored in Marine Biology and had studied marine life ever since I was a boy, as well as being a certified diver.  Naturally occurring red tides are rare and probably only happen about once every 10 to 15 years and only cover an area of about 20 to 30 miles or less, but in recent years, they have become much more frequent, and the most recent one a couple of years ago, covered about 200 miles of the coast here!  It lasted for about a month and a half to two month too!  That is unheard of!  It is entirely due to two factors:  1. the increased pollution from runoff of excessive use of synthetic chemical fertilizers and, 2. the ever increasing water temps due to Climate Change that have our waters getting much warmer than normal and staying much warmer than normal late into the fall and even into the winter.

John 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017‎ ‎9‎:‎51‎:‎59‎, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

You know, I did think of that right when I posted my comment.   Of course they are going to be hybrids unless someone can meticulously breed Mexican talls in their pure form.   Keep trying though.  It would be great to see south Texas to get some of its coconut populations back.   I wonder if any were at one time even native to the lower RGV there. 

The EPA seems to have more people that are just government hacks that have no real degrees in  the fields in which they are employed than they do people who actually know whats going on and know the plants, accept maybe at the very highest levels.   However now it seems that in the current state of things, they dont want actual scientists / people that know what they are doing, running things.    I thought that plant diseases such as those did not transmit to the seeds?  They are introduced to the plants via soil or insect vectors aren't they? 

Ken,

I have a theory, or maybe more appropriately, a hypothesis, that indeed about 200 years ago, there were some mature Mexican Tall Coconut Palms growing along the beach at Boca Chica, the beach on the north side of the mouth of the Rio Grande River.  Back then before the clearcutting of 98% of the native subtropical palm forest that grew along the Rio Grande River from about where Falcon Dam is now to the river delta, the climate was more moist, probably with an average annual rainfall in the delta area of about 34" of rainfall per year.  Also, I think that area was solidly high end Climate Zone 10A or even low end 10B back then, which certainly would support the growth of coconut palms.  Coconut palms normally need an average annual rainfall of at least 40" per year to do well without supplemental watering.  The approx. 34" per year that I think that area got back then (as opposed to the 26" of annual average rainfall there now since all the clearcutting for agriculture in the last 140+ years), along with the ample available ground water with a high water table at beach along the delta, would have probably been enough to certainly get any Mexican Tall nuts that washed up to sprout and grow to maturity and produce some nuts.  I honestly think that the clearcutting of the native Sabal Palm forest along the river is what lead to the all time record low of 12F in Brownsville in 1899!  Before all the cutting of the forest in the Rio Grande Valley, I would venture to say the lowest temp ever experienced in that area since the last ice age, probably never dropped below about 18F or 19F.  Mankind has such a devastatingly negative impact on the environment.  We should live in harmony with nature, but instead, in our infinite greed and stupidity, we are Hell bent on destroying the very planet that sustains us!

Anyway, as I understand it, Lethal Yellowing is NOT transferred to the nuts, so theoretically, you could still get healthy sprouted palms from nuts from an infected tree.  The disease is spread by a leaf hopper.

John

[Umbrae]

Sooooo how did the coconuts fare through this last winter event ? 

[PalmTreeDude]

Off topic from coconuts, but is the Royal cold damaged or destroyed from the salty sandy environment?

 https://www.google.com/maps/@26.0728215,-97.2132662,3a,34.6y,12.26h,93.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sND1f0EbTpyNQwK7SsKXgjg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

And dang that is a lot of naturalized Washingtonia. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.0989257,-97.1673581,3a,75y,25.81h,76.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC-grovEsEXt60HY5uellaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited December 16, 2017 by PalmTreeDude

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Off topic from coconuts, but is the Royal cold damaged or destroyed from the salty sandy environment?

 https://www.google.com/maps/@26.0728215,-97.2132662,3a,34.6y,12.26h,93.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sND1f0EbTpyNQwK7SsKXgjg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

And dang that is a lot of naturalized Washingtonia. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.0989257,-97.1673581,3a,75y,25.81h,76.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC-grovEsEXt60HY5uellaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That is cold damage from the February 2011 freeze (pic is from April 2011), the biggest freeze in that area since 1989. Yeah, in most parts of the RGV it's pretty much impossible to not see Washingtonia everywhere you turn. Royals are quite popular too and seem to be the palm of choice in many newer neighborhoods. 

Regarding the recent snow, I doubt there was too much damage beyond maybe some minor cosmetic leaf injury. The actual low temperature was only 34F. It got up to 70F the day after and just a few days before the snow, highs were near 90F. So the soil temperature was still very warm. 

Even here in Houston where it briefly got down to 32F with snow, I still have volunteer tomato and squash seedlings growing out in the open. 
 

Here's a synopsis of the weather (high/low) in Brownsville:

12/1: 83/58

12/2: 86/62

12/3: 85/69

12/4: 87/71

12/5: 87/63

12/6: 63/48

12/7: 48/41

12/8: 44/34 (0.3" of snow)

12/9: 70/34

12/10: 74/40

Here are some pics of snowy royal palms in the RGV; the coconuts are growing right across the border in Matamoros. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Xenon

[LF-TX]

6 minutes ago, Xenon said:

That is cold damage from the February 2011 freeze, the biggest freeze in that area since 1989. Yeah, in most parts of the RGV it's pretty much impossible to not see Washingtonia everywhere you turn. Royals are quite popular too and seem to be the palm of choice in many newer neighborhoods. 

Regarding the recent snow, I doubt there was too much damage beyond maybe some minor cosmetic leaf injury. The actual low temperature was only 34F. It got up to 70F the day after and just a few days before the snow, highs were near 90F. So the soil temperature was still very warm. 

Even here in Houston where it briefly got down to 32F with snow, I still have volunteer tomato and squash seedlings growing out in the open. 
 

Here's a synopsis of the weather (high/low) in Brownsville:

12/1: 83/58

12/2: 86/62

12/3: 85/69

12/4: 87/71

12/5: 87/63

12/6: 63/48

12/7: 48/41

12/8: 44/34 (0.3" of snow)

12/9: 70/34

12/10: 74/40

Here are some pics of snowy royal palms in the RGV; the coconuts are growing right across the border in Matamoros. 

Agreed. I’ve told some of my people that I’ve came across lately that it doesn’t even looked like it snowed! All the cocos, royals are fine. I’m in shock actually at how well they did. Even my bananas did well. The only one who didn’t fare so well was my young royal poinciana  Still alive, but very unhappy... but still very replaceable if things don’t work out. Other than that, everything looks just fine. 

[palmsOrl]

The petiole color on yours is exactly the same as on my Jamaican talls Alex.  What are the morphological differences between the Mexican and Jamaican tall?

[palmsOrl]

On 9/17/2017 at 6:05 PM, lahuasteca said:

I'm going to take a stab at it - might be wrong.  About 20-25 years ago there  was an outbreak of lethal yellowing in the LRGV - killed most of the date palms - today very few Canary Island and Arabian date palms here.  In the 1970's there were many.  I'm just guessing - Texas Dept. of Ag. associates LY with Cocos nucifera and makes it difficult to bring them in.  There was a nursery near Bayview Texas (Rivers End?) that used to sell 3 and 5 gallon trees - I bought two years ago.  They told me the seed nuts were certified Malayan greens from Costa Rica.  Now I notice they are not listed on their website.

Whatever, I had 20 or so green and golden Malayan nuts shipped to me from Ft. Lauderdale recently.  I've applied for a license from the Texas Dept. Ag. to sell at swap meets at Pt. Isabel, TX.  I have fears when they come to my home to do an inspection - their reaction to the 3 gallon Malayans that I now have growing.  Will keep everyone updated.

Wow, they are strict in Texas.  Living in Florida, I cannot imagine them just coming and confiscating coconut palms.  We just grow what we want here, as long as it isn’t illegal drugs or something.

[GottmitAlex]

6 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

The petiole color on yours is exactly the same as on my Jamaican talls Alex.  What are the morphological differences between the Mexican and Jamaican tall?

I didnt missed this post earlier. 

I dont know much about all the differences, however the Jamaican/Atlantic talls tend to produce a full 360 crown, whereas the Mexican/Pacific talls do the typical 3/4

I refer to mine as Mexican tall since it is from Mexico,  however it is from Jalisco,MX :Pacific side

so technically,  it's a golden Pacific tall.

on the east coast of Mexico there are much more "Mexican talls" but they are the Atlantic type. But not many enjoy a full crown. I don't know what happened there.  I guess all the years of mixing 'em up,  hybridizing 'em, etc.

[palmsOrl]

Thank you Alex.  I really like the look of both and would love to get ahold of a Mexican tall Cocos.  It seems like a few suspected pure Mexican tall nuts found on the beach (and I know it is few) could be brought to South Fl, bred and distributed for their slightly increased cold hardiness.  I would pay $100 for an intact ripe coconut I knew came from a pure Mexican tall.  Same with the Indian tall variety from North-Central India.  As long as it was legal to do so of course.

Edited April 20, 2019 by palmsOrl

[GottmitAlex]

I'm in the same boat. My problem is I don't have any more space.

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, palmsOrl said:

Thank you Alex.  I really like the look of both and would love to get ahold of a Mexican tall Cocos.  It seems like a few suspected pure Mexican tall nuts found on the beach (and I know it is few) could be brought to South Fl, bred and distributed for their slightly increased cold hardiness.  I would pay $100 for an intact ripe coconut I knew came from a pure Mexican tall.  Same with the Indian tall variety from North-Central India.  As long as it was legal to do so of course.

If cold hardiness is what you are interested in, you may want to talk to someone about getting one of the nuts off the Atlantic Talls at Kopsick.  They survived 1989 and 2010.

[Sandy Loam]

http://www.stpeteparksrec.org/gizella-kopsick-arboretum.html

[palmsOrl]

I did get 3 nuts from the Kopsick coconuts back in 2013-2014.  These were planted at an old house, then I suddenly moved and my dad ended up moving them to his house.  Unfortunately, he didn’t keep track of which was which variety.  I plan to make another trip there in the fall.  I think it was posted here that these were planted in 1990.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 4/20/2019 at 10:50 AM, palmsOrl said:

I did get 3 nuts from the Kopsick coconuts back in 2013-2014.  These were planted at an old house, then I suddenly moved and my dad ended up moving them to his house.  Unfortunately, he didn’t keep track of which was which variety.  I plan to make another trip there in the fall.  I think it was posted here that these were planted in 1990.

I would certainly like a few of those Kopsick Jamaican Tall ripe viable nuts, or even a couple of sprouted nuts from them would be great.

John

[Palmaceae]

On 4/20/2019 at 11:50 AM, palmsOrl said:

I did get 3 nuts from the Kopsick coconuts back in 2013-2014.  These were planted at an old house, then I suddenly moved and my dad ended up moving them to his house.  Unfortunately, he didn’t keep track of which was which variety.  I plan to make another trip there in the fall.  I think it was posted here that these were planted in 1990.

Actually the Kopsick coconuts were planted in the mid '80s, if i remember correctly, and went through the '89 freeze. I know this as I am the one who got the palms from the late Paul Drumond in Miami. I was very involved with Kopsick in the '80s.

I would myself love to get a couple of nuts to plant as they are special to me since I planted them! I can still see them in pots when Paul Drumond gave them to me. I can't remember what I did yesterday but I remember things from over 30 years ago 

 

[ck_in_fla]

23 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

Actually the Kopsick coconuts were planted in the mid '80s, if i remember correctly, and went through the '89 freeze. I know this as I am the one who got the palms from the late Paul Drumond in Miami. I was very involved with Kopsick in the '80s.

I would myself love to get a couple of nuts to plant as they are special to me since I planted them! I can still see them in pots when Paul Drumond gave them to me. I can't remember what I did yesterday but I remember things from over 30 years ago 

 

Since those trees are so special, an effort should be made to collect and distribute the fruit that falls and see to it that they get into the hands of people who will plant them, take care of them and report back to this forum on the progress of the resulting trees.  It would be a grand experiment to see if these trees are a bit more resistant to cold.  What does everyone else think?

[GottmitAlex]

33 minutes ago, ck_in_fla said:

Since those trees are so special, an effort should be made to collect and distribute the fruit that falls and see to it that they get into the hands of people who will plant them, take care of them and report back to this forum on the progress of the resulting trees.  It would be a grand experiment to see if these trees are a bit more resistant to cold.  What does everyone else think?

Great idea. Not only that, I have made it known in the forum it would be a great idea to try to hybridize c. Nucifera and the Beccaraiophoenix species since they are the closest in appearance to cocos and of course, much hardier.

[Maltese coconut project]

Absolutely true. Tried and tested in a Mediterranean type climate. We don't have freezing temperatures but we have long cool (not cold temperatures). The results:

 

Indian coconuts:

[Maltese coconut project]

Nicaraguan coconuts : (biggest three on left) 

[Maltese coconut project]

South East Asian :

[Maltese coconut project]

And finally the Dutch greenhouse ones which probably are already dead :

[Maltese coconut project]

Current weather in the area I live in (currently coolest month) Top in celcius, bottom in Fahrenheit 

[Maltese coconut project]

Update of the few Coconut varieties by country that I have. The Indian ones persist to be the most cool resistant and still in nice condition 

[Maltese coconut project]

Nicaraguan Green variety, quite good looking

[Maltese coconut project]

Nicaraguan orange type, not too good looking but rather battered 

[Maltese coconut project]

Indian varieties, the best looking so far 

[Maltese coconut project]

Not sure about the origin of these two.  They could be from South East Asia or from Ivory Coast but the supermarket staff selling it weren't sure 

[Maltese coconut project]

And one particular Indian specimen with yellowish and dwarfish characteristics 

[Maltese coconut project]

Our current climate (Top screenshot degrees celcius and bottom screenshot degrees Fahrenheit) 

[Maltese coconut project]

Here is and interesting article about coconut genetics carried out by plant evolutionary biologist Professor Kenneth M. Olsen, Professor Bee F. Gunn and Professor Luc Baudouin regarding coconut genetics.. According to their study, there were two major genetically differentiated coconut tree populations, one in Indian and the Indian ocean basin and the other in the South Pacific basin. The two were dispersed in different parts of the tropical world by travelling humans. The chart shows that the Indian type was dispersed on both sides of tropical Africa and on the Atlantic side of tropical American continents, and the South Pacific type was dispersed on the west coast of tropical America. In Madagascar and nearby areas they found a mixture of both population genetics.  Possibly the Indian type might be more cool tolerant than the Pacific type.  In my experiment, Indian type were most Hardy, Nicaraguan types which are probably a mixture due to East and west tropical American coasts being connected by the Panama canal showed medium cool resistance and the Philippines green variety which are from South Pacific were the most cool sensitive with all of them probably dying in December.  This could also be a lead why Florida, Jamaican and Eastern Mexican coconut varieties are said to be more cool tolerant, possibly due to being on Indian ancestry. Here is a link to the article https://source.wustl.edu/2011/06/deep-history-of-coconuts-decoded/

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:27 PM, kinzyjr said:

If cold hardiness is what you are interested in, you may want to talk to someone about getting one of the nuts off the Atlantic Talls at Kopsick.  They survived 1989 and 2010.

I would REALLY like some of these!!!

John

[kinzyjr]

1 minute ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I would REALLY like some of these!!!

John

Should I happen across any I'll gladly share.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

8 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Should I happen across any I'll gladly share.

Thank you, Kinzy.  I really appreciate it.

John

[Maltese coconut project]

If one observes the map of how and who distributed the two different coconut populations one would realise that the Atlantic talls at Kopsick are descendants of India talls.. Actually most coconut trees found on the Eastern coast of Tropical America are probably descendants of Indian talls. Seems like the genetics of cool resistance of Indian talls has been around for centuries. Unfortunately many people had only access to more cool sensitive specimens sold from some garden centres. 

[Than]

@Phoenikakias ever bothered with cocos? 

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, ego said:

@Phoenikakias ever bothered with cocos? 

Since my first trial and failure in my cold frame a long time ago, never again!

[Than]

7 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Since my first trial and failure in my cold frame a long time ago, never again!

It just wasn't the right variety. You need to try an Indian tall. I'll go to Sklavenitis later and see if they label their coconuts. I'm planning to create the first coconut plantation in Greece and export the nuts one day.

[Than]

Does anyone know what is the northernmost place in India where coconuts grow?

[Than]

On 1/23/2022 at 5:49 PM, Maltese coconut project said:

Update of the few Coconut varieties by country that I have. The Indian ones persist to be the most cool resistant and still in nice condition 

Where did you get them from?