Leaning crown of Livistona

[_Keith]

This sad state of affairs is shown in the picture.  This beautiful Livistona decipiens is about 20-25 feet tall.  I just noticed a seriously leaning crown up there, leaning hard off to the left about 70 degrees.  Hoping this is a boron deficiency due to 2 years of crazy rains, so I just got in a mix of minor elements to help save it.   Not sure whether to attempt to splint it, attempt to tie if off to a nearby oak tree or just let nature correct it if it can.   On of the prizes of my garden.  So sad.  Any opinions welcome.

[Yort]

This is not a deficiency but phototropism in action.

[_Keith]

36 minutes ago, Yort said:

This is not a deficiency but phototropism in action.

Since growing conditions (light and that Oak Tree) have not changed since this palms initial planting 9 years ago I find that hard to accept. It has always grown straight up till this year.   Another member reminded me we had a significant wind event this year.  The direction of lean is consistent.  But we'll see.    

[Palmaceae]

It does look like wind may have caused this.  The reason I say this is my Livistona decora went through Irma and the whole top part did lean over, even though it does not have a trunk yet.  But the base is straight, just the growing point is curved.

[Tyrone]

Not phototropism but classic LCS. It's funny that only Australian palms tend to get it, Howea, Archontophoenix and Livistona. Howea are by far the worst for it but never on Lord Howe Island.

I reckon that something distorts the shape of the growing bud and then afterwards everything comes out bent. I just removed two large Howeas with this issue. I'm getting the place ready for sale and they made the front of the house ugly. Real shame.

Boron deficiency could create the bent growing bud but then afterwards it's basically stuck like that without some sort of mechanical intervention. Boron deficiencies can just come and go quickly as it's loosely held in the soil, so applying boron on its own will probably do nothing to a palm with LCS.

Personally I'd try cutting the palm and applying tension in the opposite direction very carefully to try and pull it out of a spin, otherwise it may just grow back towards the ground.

Sorry to see your palm like that.

[_Keith]

24 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

It does look like wind may have caused this.  The reason I say this is my Livistona decora went through Irma and the whole top part did lean over, even though it does not have a trunk yet.  But the base is straight, just the growing point is curved.

Did you let it go, or cut it back towards the crown?

 

[Palmaceae]

6 minutes ago, _Keith said:

Did you let it go, or cut it back towards the crown?

 

I just let it go, it is doing well now and the new fronds are still pointing at an angle and growing (a few of the new unopened fronds broke during the storm). It is not bent over as much like yours but a definite lean after Irma.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Palmaceae

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

That really looks like severe lack of water to me. I highly suggest immediate watering.  

[Palmaceae]

Here is a picture of mine right after Irma. Kind of hard to see in the picture but the growing point is at a 20 degree angle. I hope yours makes it.

 

[Nakheel1412]

We can't really see the palm's configuration, but I guess its crown wasn't/isn't pushing against anything, was/is it?

Very weird, unless the bud was damaged by wind or the leaves were regularly pushed in this direction, I can't see what would cause something like this ;
I really hope you can find a way to fix this, it is such a nice specimen you have here :s

[DoomsDave]

Ouch, Keith, sorry to hear!

If you can, climb up there and give the crown a nudge, to see if it's sturdy. If not . . . . 

If you don't want to, I wouldn't either.

Except for the lean, looks healthy.

Keep us apprized, cher!

[Kris]

7 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

It does look like wind may have caused this.  The reason I say this is my Livistona decora went through Irma and the whole top part did lean over, even though it does not have a trunk yet.  But the base is straight, just the growing point is curved.

Even I think it should be the reason. Very few palms turn towards the direction of light(Sun).

And those palms with silver or ash coloured trunk palms do not show these tendency.eg royals,queens,foxtail,jubea never turn their trunk like coconut tree or as regular date palm does.

Even latania,livistona palms don't turn towards the direction of light.

In our house the date palm is bent and leaning towards our house after last years cyclone storm Vardha.but its alive and healthy.

So Keith your palm should have bent due to a storm or cyclone.

Love,

Kris.

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, Tyrone said:

Not phototropism but classic LCS. It's funny that only Australian palms tend to get it, Howea, Archontophoenix and Livistona. Howea are by far the worst for it but never on Lord Howe Island.

I reckon that something distorts the shape of the growing bud and then afterwards everything comes out bent. I just removed two large Howeas with this issue. I'm getting the place ready for sale and they made the front of the house ugly. Real shame.

Boron deficiency could create the bent growing bud but then afterwards it's basically stuck like that without some sort of mechanical intervention. Boron deficiencies can just come and go quickly as it's loosely held in the soil, so applying boron on its own will probably do nothing to a palm with LCS.

Personally I'd try cutting the palm and applying tension in the opposite direction very carefully to try and pull it out of a spin, otherwise it may just grow back towards the ground.

Sorry to see your palm like that.

What is LCS???

[JimStPete]

Keith, I have one that has done the same exact thing as yours, twice (recovered once already).  After Hurricane Irma hit us I noticed the sudden bending of this tree's crown again....bent to the point that this time it was broken.  It has now left some dead leaves hanging from the old bud, but new growth has continued and it's upright again.  The previous bending of the same palm last fall appeared after a severe storm with high winds.  Maybe the high winds just bend the weak bud of LCS?  Now that I am informed this is LCS, I'll take the tree down while it's still small (15').  I have three others about the same size and so far so good with them.

[Phoenikakias]

40 minutes ago, JimStPete said:

Keith, I have one that has done the same exact thing as yours, twice (recovered once already).  After Hurricane Irma hit us I noticed the sudden bending of this tree's crown again....bent to the point that this time it was broken.  It has now left some dead leaves hanging from the old bud, but new growth has continued and it's upright again.  The previous bending of the same palm last fall appeared after a severe storm with high winds.  Maybe the high winds just bend the weak bud of LCS?  Now that I am informed this is LCS, I'll take the tree down while it's still small (15').  I have three others about the same size and so far so good with them.

WHAT IS LCS???

[Kris]

8 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

WHAT IS LCS???

Leaning crown syndrome

[Phoenikakias]

My decora used to do it every winter in the last years, but but problem is solved in the following summer. I do not water nor fertilize during winter, which is the rainiest season here but generally climate is quite arid. Besides strong gusts occur now and then all year round. Remarkably however this bending never happens in summer, when plant is fertilized and watered daily. Imo it could well be not one factor but a correlation of several ones the actual cause of the problem. 

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

3 minutes ago, Kris said:

Leaning crown syndrome

Thanks Kris! A very descriptive name, but is it a disease or a nutritional disorder or what? 

[Kris]

26 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Thanks Kris! A very descriptive name, but is it a disease or a nutritional disorder or what? 

I assume it means nutritional disorder of some kind..but not sure.

[Tyrone]

On 02/12/2017, 5:33:41, Phoenikakias said:

Thanks Kris! A very descriptive name, but is it a disease or a nutritional disorder or what? 

No one really knows conclusively.

[Sandy Loam]

I have a Livistona Nitida that is doing the same thing right now.  I thought it was simply leaning towards the sunlight, but now I see that it might be Leaning Crown Syndrome (LCS) instead.  Is LCS fatal to the palm over time?  Can a palm just keep growing forever with its crown leaning over?  

[Sandy Loam]

I may have answered some of my own questions, thanks to Google.  Here is an article by someone at the University of California who studies LCS in palms and is asking LCS palm owners to contact him for scientific research purposes:

https://www.palms.org/palmsjournal/2007/v51n1p5-10.pdf

By the way, he mentions that some individuals claim to have corrected LCS by applying pressure to the crown in the opposite direction.  In other words, Keith, have you considered firmly tying the crown of that Livistona Decora to the oak behind it?

[Sanips]

Hi

This reminds me a case commented in a  Spanish forum and first some users thought it was a pasyandisia attack and they finish believing it was with a micronutrient problem (Mg or Boron).

 

[_Keith]

We got a good needed rain today.  I had the micros spread as well as a good palm fert so all should be soaking in.   I'll keep a close eye, but if the lean does appear to self correct I will start trimming because I can't find the correct angle to tie it off to correct the lean.

[Geoff]

Here's a leaner in the Wild Animal Park near San Diego... never found out what happened to this palm... was right next to the train tracks one takes around the park so maybe someone else has seen it?

[Sanips]

12 hours ago, Sanips said:

Hi

This reminds me a case commented in a  Spanish forum and first some users thought it was a pasyandisia attack and they finish believing it was with a micronutrient problem (Mg or Boron).

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

This still looks like lack of water to me.  I see this happen on newly transplanted windmills and livistona all the time. A deep watering will usually fill the cell walls with water, and pressurize them resulting in the crown perking up and a straightened growth point in a few days.  The spear will also be very loose and not firm like normal in this situation. 

[_Keith]

2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

This still looks like lack of water to me.  I see this happen on newly transplanted windmills and livistona all the time. A deep watering will usually fill the cell walls with water, and pressurize them resulting in the crown perking up and a straightened growth point in a few days.  The spear will also be very loose and not firm like normal in this situation. 

Well, if so that just got fixed. Been raining for 2 days straight between 2 and 3 inches.  Just like Louisiana back and forth between drought and drowning.  I thought that was just what Livistona liked.  May have washed out my micros, lol, but I bought extra.

Thanks to all for the replies.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

On 12/6/2017, 6:22:20, _Keith said:

Well, if so that just got fixed. Been raining for 2 days straight between 2 and 3 inches.  Just like Louisiana back and forth between drought and drowning.  I thought that was just what Livistona liked.  May have washed out my micros, lol, but I bought extra.

Thanks to all for the replies.

So did it straighten any?

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

On 12/1/2017, 5:12:43, _Keith said:

This sad state of affairs is shown in the picture.  This beautiful Livistona decipiens is about 20-25 feet tall.  I just noticed a seriously leaning crown up there, leaning hard off to the left about 70 degrees.  Hoping this is a boron deficiency due to 2 years of crazy rains, so I just got in a mix of minor elements to help save it.   Not sure whether to attempt to splint it, attempt to tie if off to a nearby oak tree or just let nature correct it if it can.   On of the prizes of my garden.  So sad.  Any opinions welcome.

Keith, I've see  this before too.  I suspect wind damage,  I've had similar damage from tropical storm Fay, and hurricane Irma.  The trees recovered and were fine.  Livistona decora (formerly decipiens) survives high winds, but its hair is easily frazzled.  I've found the same with the other thin leaved, wispy Livistonas.  Livistona saribus, on the other hand, is a as wind strong as Sabal palmetto. 

I still think adding the micronutrients was a good move.  Boron deficiency does emerge months after the tree is subjected to flooded soil, though I didn't know Livistona was particularly prone to B deficiency.  

Regarding removing the bent fronds at the top....that's some form of human torture.  Those petioles are very well armed against human climbers.  But if you have a way, it'll clean up the canopy.  

 

 

[Patrick]

I remember when I had the fortunate opportunity to go to Inga Hoffman's house in Castro Valley, she had a L decora that was ALL OVER THE PLACE! The trunk twisted ths way and that way- it almost looked like a serpent the way the trunk bent every which way. This was at a plam society meeting probably around 2008- just a guess on the date.

 

Sadly I don't have any pictures, maybe some other palmtalkers might have a couple to share.

 

I wonder if her tree wound up with the same condition and corrected itself? Perhaps yours will do the same Keith, I'll keep my fingers crossed for a swift recovery.

[_Keith]

Found another palm, Jubutia, in same conditions leaving exactly the same direction, and an entire leaning Mule palm going the same direction.  We had a very wet spring, summer, and fall pushing lots of new growth prior to out wind event.   Rains also leached away many nutrients I think as well.  Made them very susceptible I suppose.  

[palmaddict]

Keith,

Been a long time since I posted but I had four 15 foot tall groups of Howea f. showing this same issue.  Not a response to the sun at all.  After treating leaning Howea groupings with two handfuls of Borax detergent (contains Boron) and watering in heavily followed by another handful several months later, all palm grouping are now normal and the leaning has disappeared completely after one year.  So I am convinced that this syndrome is absolutely a boron deficiency.  One note of caution while boron is a necessary element at high concentrations it can harm the plant.  Several of my Howea f groupings while correcting the lean had quite a bit of burn on older fronds.  The new growth is however green and without issue.  If you let this leaning go too long I think treatment will correct the lean but your palm will have a permanent bend in it where the older growth was.  Mine now are perfectly straight as treated in time.

No need for fancy supplements.  Go to Walmart and buy the five pound box of "20 Mule Team" borax for about $6.  You can even use any leftover in your washer!!!

patrick

[palmaddict]

Forgot a second point related to the above boron treatment.  I actually think what causes the leaning is a failure for the emerging fronds to separate from each other as I found the leaning palms had emerging fronds that I had to pry to separate.  When the fronds fail to separate from each other in essence it torques the crown of the palm creating a lean in one direction.  When I treated with borax the lean disappeared but what likely drove that was I found I no longer had emerging fronds sticking to each other but nicely separated which is the normal course of events.

Patrick

[_Keith]

On 12/14/2017, 6:54:36, palmaddict said:

Forgot a second point related to the above boron treatment.  I actually think what causes the leaning is a failure for the emerging fronds to separate from each other as I found the leaning palms had emerging fronds that I had to pry to separate.  When the fronds fail to separate from each other in essence it torques the crown of the palm creating a lean in one direction.  When I treated with borax the lean disappeared but what likely drove that was I found I no longer had emerging fronds sticking to each other but nicely separated which is the normal course of events.

Patrick

I did not even think of Borax.   Spent a fortune on essential minors mix.  Well, not really a fortune but Borax is cheap.

[DoomsDave]

On 12/2/2017, 1:33:41, Phoenikakias said:

Thanks Kris! A very descriptive name, but is it a disease or a nutritional disorder or what? 

 

On 12/4/2017, 2:32:24, Tyrone said:

No one really knows conclusively.

I concur wish I knew.

[BS Man about Palms]

On 12/1/2017, 3:30:01, Tyrone said:

Not phototropism but classic LCS. It's funny that only Australian palms tend to get it, Howea, Archontophoenix and Livistona. Howea are by far the worst for it but never on Lord Howe Island.

I reckon that something distorts the shape of the growing bud and then afterwards everything comes out bent. I just removed two large Howeas with this issue. I'm getting the place ready for sale and they made the front of the house ugly. Real shame.

Boron deficiency could create the bent growing bud but then afterwards it's basically stuck like that without some sort of mechanical intervention. Boron deficiencies can just come and go quickly as it's loosely held in the soil, so applying boron on its own will probably do nothing to a palm with LCS.

Personally I'd try cutting the palm and applying tension in the opposite direction very carefully to try and pull it out of a spin, otherwise it may just grow back towards the ground.

Sorry to see your palm like that.

 

On 12/14/2017, 4:54:36, palmaddict said:

Forgot a second point related to the above boron treatment.  I actually think what causes the leaning is a failure for the emerging fronds to separate from each other as I found the leaning palms had emerging fronds that I had to pry to separate.  When the fronds fail to separate from each other in essence it torques the crown of the palm creating a lean in one direction.  When I treated with borax the lean disappeared but what likely drove that was I found I no longer had emerging fronds sticking to each other but nicely separated which is the normal course of events.

Patrick

^Those! Sorry, I just saw this and was happy to see some people here have this noted. I did a fair amount of research and reading about LCS which has primarily afflicted Howea palms in So Cal. But I have noticed kings and occasionally Queens get this too.

At first it was a curiosity to me, but when my first "planted" palm (howea) started to get it, I stepped up my reading and action. 

First, I am 100% convinced it's an initial boron deficiency that triggers, or more accurately does not allow emerging fronds to separate. Often, heavy rains or watering can be the starting point. Once started, how long the issue goes before addressing seems to be the key to recovery.  (Btw, I started a thread on this a long while back.. I may try to dig it up) But, mulching well is often all that is needed to correct the deficiency, however, getting the crown right again is the hardest part. Like Patrick noted, sometimes they can correct themselves, but more work is the best plan and has had the best results. As noted in the thread, removing weight (fronds) on the side its leaning towards and actually adding weight (I have used lifting weights with bungee cords) on the upper side to "pull" it back right has had great success on the couple palms I've done this to. 

Good Luck Keith!

 

[BS Man about Palms]

On 12/1/2017, 3:30:01, Tyrone said:

 

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/16725-new-possible-reason-for-leaning-crown-in-howeas/&page=2

On 12/14/2017, 4:54:36, palmaddict said:

 

[Phoenikakias]

On 2/12/2017, 11:29:53, Phoenikakias said:

My decora used to do it every winter in the last years, but but problem is solved in the following summer. I do not water nor fertilize during winter, which is the rainiest season here but generally climate is quite arid. Besides strong gusts occur now and then all year round. Remarkably however this bending never happens in summer, when plant is fertilized and watered daily. Imo it could well be not one factor but a correlation of several ones the actual cause of the problem. 

 

I forgot to mention that I had also spreaded borax around dripping zone once or twice during winter looking forward to next growth season. Truth is that palm looks now better than ever...

[Phoenikakias]

Here's mine from past November Given the arid climate, the slopy terrain and the competition through other crowded palms, I consider its appearance quite decent.