Arenga micrantha flowering

[TropicsEnjoyer]

15 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

which are you referring to?

A. microcarpa

[WaianaeCrider]

On 12/17/2024 at 1:53 PM, TropicsEnjoyer said:

A. microcarpa

LOL  now I have to go back and look at the question.  LOL  Old age bad memory.  LOL 

[Robbertico18]

Anyone have a spare micrantha they wouldn't mind parting with?

preferably in the southeast US

[Merlyn]

On 12/16/2024 at 3:12 AM, Jonathan said:

I was just doing a bit of research on A micrantha and came across this paper from the IPS

I wondered about the ID of my "Micrantha" as well, because mine was so different than @richnorm's palm.  Mine were not cold hardy, taking severe damage around 30F with frost.  And they were *extremely* slow, so much so that they just kept getting smaller and smaller each year after each winter's damage.  Eventually I transplanted them to spots protected under a Chinensis and a Bismarck, and then trashed them after 2 years of little to no growth.  Mine did look a lot like @WaianaeCrider's palms, with tall fronds and sparsely clustering.

The description is typically obtuse wording, but the description of "dwarf, solitary" and 2.1m stems with 3m leaves is definitely not Rich's plant.  If I had to guess, maybe Rich's is Arenga Wightii or Microcarpa?  It's also odd that Palmpedia says multi-stemmed and more than 6m tall, but that's not the official species description either.  But Rich, your photos on Palmpedia of the smaller plant look just like mine, like this one:

This is all way too confusing. 

[richnorm]

That's the same plant but taken quite a long time ago - maybe 2010 or even earlier?  I think I got it about 2007 and it prpobably sat in a pot for a couple of years.

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, Merlyn said:

I wondered about the ID of my "Micrantha" as well, because mine was so different than @richnorm's palm.  Mine were not cold hardy, taking severe damage around 30F with frost.  And they were *extremely* slow, so much so that they just kept getting smaller and smaller each year after each winter's damage.  Eventually I transplanted them to spots protected under a Chinensis and a Bismarck, and then trashed them after 2 years of little to no growth.  Mine did look a lot like @WaianaeCrider's palms, with tall fronds and sparsely clustering.

The description is typically obtuse wording, but the description of "dwarf, solitary" and 2.1m stems with 3m leaves is definitely not Rich's plant.  If I had to guess, maybe Rich's is Arenga Wightii or Microcarpa?  It's also odd that Palmpedia says multi-stemmed and more than 6m tall, but that's not the official species description either.  But Rich, your photos on Palmpedia of the smaller plant look just like mine, like this one:

This is all way too confusing. 

can not be microcarpa, cause fruits, even unpollinated ones are fairly big. It may be only an optical illusion, but it seems that leaflets of A wightii are too narrow and long compared to the inspected taxon. 

[Jonathan]

10 hours ago, Merlyn said:

I wondered about the ID of my "Micrantha" as well, because mine was so different than @richnorm's palm.  Mine were not cold hardy, taking severe damage around 30F with frost.  And they were *extremely* slow, so much so that they just kept getting smaller and smaller each year after each winter's damage.  Eventually I transplanted them to spots protected under a Chinensis and a Bismarck, and then trashed them after 2 years of little to no growth.  Mine did look a lot like @WaianaeCrider's palms, with tall fronds and sparsely clustering.

The description is typically obtuse wording, but the description of "dwarf, solitary" and 2.1m stems with 3m leaves is definitely not Rich's plant.  If I had to guess, maybe Rich's is Arenga Wightii or Microcarpa?  It's also odd that Palmpedia says multi-stemmed and more than 6m tall, but that's not the official species description either.  But Rich, your photos on Palmpedia of the smaller plant look just like mine, like this one:

This is all way too confusing. 

I spent a couple of fruitless hours comparing Richards plant to every clumping Arenga description that I could find...it doesn't match any.

I've got four that are about the size of the one in the pic above and they look like dead ringers. They can't be true micrantha, and they don't match any other species, so I would guess we have an undescribed species. 

I got my seed from RPS in May 2011 according to my notes, and they've been growing like glaciers in pots until about a year ago, when they finally started putting on a bit of size. Hoping to put them in the ground this summer. I'd love to know where RPS got the seed from!

[tim_brissy_13]

34 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

I spent a couple of fruitless hours comparing Richards plant to every clumping Arenga description that I could find...it doesn't match any.

I've got four that are about the size of the one in the pic above and they look like dead ringers. They can't be true micrantha, and they don't match any other species, so I would guess we have an undescribed species. 

I got my seed from RPS in May 2011 according to my notes, and they've been growing like glaciers in pots until about a year ago, when they finally started putting on a bit of size. Hoping to put them in the ground this summer. I'd love to know where RPS got the seed from!

This is my conclusion too. For years, RPS have been releasing seeds as A micrantha and have turned out to be this large clumping Arenga. There are specimens here in Melbourne which match Richard’s and are getting very large. I’m sure this is what our recent batch will turn out to be too. 

[TropicsEnjoyer]

5 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I spent a couple of fruitless hours comparing Richards plant to every clumping Arenga description that I could find...it doesn't match any.

I've got four that are about the size of the one in the pic above and they look like dead ringers. They can't be true micrantha, and they don't match any other species, so I would guess we have an undescribed species. 

I got my seed from RPS in May 2011 according to my notes, and they've been growing like glaciers in pots until about a year ago, when they finally started putting on a bit of size. Hoping to put them in the ground this summer. I'd love to know where RPS got the seed from!

I’m not sure if this is even possible but could it possibly be an undocumented hybrid? 

[Merlyn]

18 minutes ago, TropicsEnjoyer said:

I’m not sure if this is even possible but could it possibly be an undocumented hybrid? 

That's my thinking at the moment.  It looks a lot like a "giant Engleri."  Typical Engleri cluster profusely and are moderately slow growers, and flower at maybe 10-15 feet total height.  I have a couple that have gotten to about that size with 6' trunks and started flowering.  I'm actually not sure if Engleri flowers and dies, or if it flowers and then new offshoots just keep growing normally.  There is a similar "giant Engleri" at Leu Gardens that's easily 20' tall and looks a lot like Rich's.  It's much more heavily pruned in this picture from Palmpedia:

I know I have a more recent photo, but I couldn't spot it in my files at the moment.  The above plant from May 2015 is probably 3x or 4x bigger than the other several Engleri at Leu Gardens.  And now that I think about it, I'm not sure if I saw that palm there when I visited around Thanksgiving. 

Either way, maybe it's an undescribed species, or possibly an Engleri hybrid with something bigger.

[Phoenikakias]

45 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

That's my thinking at the moment.  It looks a lot like a "giant Engleri."  Typical Engleri cluster profusely and are moderately slow growers, and flower at maybe 10-15 feet total height.  I have a couple that have gotten to about that size with 6' trunks and started flowering.  I'm actually not sure if Engleri flowers and dies, or if it flowers and then new offshoots just keep growing normally.  There is a similar "giant Engleri" at Leu Gardens that's easily 20' tall and looks a lot like Rich's.  It's much more heavily pruned in this picture from Palmpedia:

I know I have a more recent photo, but I couldn't spot it in my files at the moment.  The above plant from May 2015 is probably 3x or 4x bigger than the other several Engleri at Leu Gardens.  And now that I think about it, I'm not sure if I saw that palm there when I visited around Thanksgiving. 

Either way, maybe it's an undescribed species, or possibly an Engleri hybrid with something bigger.

Mine is identical to Richard's except for the robustness, since climate here is dramaticly drier. Assuming that both specimens are of the same kind, mine so far has not set seeds despite the continuous blooming, while A engleri is self fertile. Stems and petioles are way thicker than those of engleri. I dare say that it reminds something between an Arenga and a robust Wallichia!

[Jonathan]

8 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

This is my conclusion too. For years, RPS have been releasing seeds as A micrantha and have turned out to be this large clumping Arenga. There are specimens here in Melbourne which match Richard’s and are getting very large. I’m sure this is what our recent batch will turn out to be too. 

It'll be interesting to see Tim. The seedlings from the seeds you sent me are just starting to push their second leaf...wishing I'd kept a photo of my others at the same age to compare.

[Jonathan]

4 hours ago, TropicsEnjoyer said:

I’m not sure if this is even possible but could it possibly be an undocumented hybrid? 

I guess it's possible,  although they seem very consistent.

@richnorm mentioned that he's now got volunteers popping up in his garden, if they turn out to be the same as the parent then I'd probably be leaning more towards a species. F2 generations often start displaying throwback traits to one or the other parents, so you would expect variation. Having said that, genetics is baffling!

[tim_brissy_13]

4 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I guess it's possible,  although they seem very consistent.

@richnorm mentioned that he's now got volunteers popping up in his garden, if they turn out to be the same as the parent then I'd probably be leaning more towards a species. F2 generations often start displaying throwback traits to one or the other parents, so you would expect variation. Having said that, genetics is baffling!

Agree. I’d also doubt it’s a hybrid since I believe the seed RPS have spread around was collected from habitat at high altitude rather than from cultivation. 

[richnorm]

4 hours ago, Jonathan said:

It'll be interesting to see Tim. The seedlings from the seeds you sent me are just starting to push their second leaf...wishing I'd kept a photo of my others at the same age to compare.

Watch out for slugs and snails on these!

[Phoenikakias]

Comparing stem girth of A 'micrantha', engleri and W disticha.

Also comparison of leaves of two forms (?) of A engleri (a larger and a more gracile form) and A 'micrantha'

From l to r 'micrantha', larger engleri, smaller engleri.  We can observe that on the abaxial side of the leaflets waxy layer is the same on both engleri forms and mid nerve of both is covered with scales, which are totally absent in 'micrantha'.

I do not know whether there is an unknown hybridization the culprit for those two different engleri forms, but the size difference is pretty consistent in all parts of the plants, even fruits and seeds.

Very small offshoot of 'micrantha' having bloomed and subsequently died.

Older offshoots still developing to new main stems

Hanging inflorescences of main stem, the youngest one being probably male

 

 

[Jonathan]

Interesting @Phoenikakias,  natural variation is another possibility with micrantha I guess.  I'm thinking of species that can be either clumping or solitary -  Chamaedorea tepejilote, Laccospadix, etc, and others that show distinct variation in stature and form, such as Chamaerops.

According to the occurrence maps here: https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/map?taxon_key=2734013 the species covers a footprint roughly the same size as Florida, but due to the steep terrain,  probably twice the surface area. The type specimen was described near Medog in Tibet in the main valley of the Brahmaputra, the nearest occurrence record is 350km away, as the crow flies, on a tributary of the same river in Arunachal Pradesh...plenty of scope for varieties to evolve, especially given the isolation provided by valleys and ridges.

Plenty of scope for species to evolve!

[Merlyn]

@Phoenikakias in your photos of the trunks, which one is which species?  I'd have to look at my Engleri, but I recall the trunks being about 4-6" diameter with all the fuzz and stuff. 

As far as Engleri size goes, several people here reported there being two different "forms" around.  There's the "short and stout" type that tends to get wide and no more than around 8-10' tall.  The other is the "tall and thinner" type that holds the fronds more vertical and may be 10-15' tall overall.  I have both types in my yard, I'll try and remember to take photos tomorrow.  In the meantime, this is a Engleri "Okinawa form" at Leu Gardens:

Also at Leu Gardens an Engleri "Ryukyuensis" form stretched out in deep shade:

And also at Leu Gardens, a regular Engleri in the "short and stout" form that's probably 20+ feet diameter and a bit over 10' tall.  This is also under a big oak tree, so a bit stretched out:

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@Phoenikakias in your photos of the trunks, which one is which species?  I'd have to look at my Engleri, but I recall the trunks being about 4-6" diameter with all the fuzz and stuff. 

As far as Engleri size goes, several people here reported there being two different "forms" around.  There's the "short and stout" type that tends to get wide and no more than around 8-10' tall.  The other is the "tall and thinner" type that holds the fronds more vertical and may be 10-15' tall overall.  I have both types in my yard, I'll try and remember to take photos tomorrow.  In the meantime, this is a Engleri "Okinawa form" at Leu Gardens:

Also at Leu Gardens an Engleri "Ryukyuensis" form stretched out in deep shade:

And also at Leu Gardens, a regular Engleri in the "short and stout" form that's probably 20+ feet diameter and a bit over 10' tall.  This is also under a big oak tree, so a bit stretched out:

same order of reference and display

[Motlife]

I had a wander around the Botanic Gardens in Christchurch, NZ over Xmas. They had a A. micrantha and engleri growing in the ground. It gets down to probably - 3 or 4 C there each year. I didn't think to take any photos unfortunately. 

Micrantha was clumping, a few metres tall and quite wide. It looked really happy and healthy. The engleri was growing but looked a lot less happy, maybe a bit of frost burn on the leaves? I suppose the Micrantha is the same as the one Richnorm has. Looks like it's faster growing and hardier in cooler climates than engleri, it's a shame it's not more available! 

[gyuseppe]

also my arenga micrantha was also planted around 2005/2006,bought as a small plant from RPS, but here it grows very slowly!, much better arenga engleri, I planted them in 2008 and about 5 years ago they also flowered and produced a lot of seeds

[richnorm]

6 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

also my arenga micrantha was also planted around 2005/2006,bought as a small plant from RPS, but here it grows very slowly!, much better arenga engleri, I planted them in 2008 and about 5 years ago they also flowered and produced a lot of seeds

It might just be one of those palms where growth rates vary greatly from plant to plant in the same conditions.

[Jonathan]

10 hours ago, richnorm said:

It might just be one of those palms where growth rates vary greatly from plant to plant in the same conditions.

Hedyscepe Syndrome!