Is there a Copernicia doctor in the house?

[Missi]

First pic baileyana grown in partial shade, second pic baileyana grown in full sun. What's the deal? Is it a light thing, nutrient thing, what? Full sun one looked just like that before the cold, so it wasn't that. Pretty sure it looked that way before Irma too. 

[Zeeth]

What kind of fertilizer do you use?

[Missi]

10 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

What kind of fertilizer do you use?

Last year I used Palm Gain.

[Mandrew968]

 The main problem is that palm is very very thirsty; you are taking that palm to it's limit of drought tolerance-and before you tell me it gets water, I can tell you that the grass engulfing the base of the palm is preventing adequate water absorption; round up or weed that thing to the perimeter of the leaves or more.  Once you give this palm enough fluids, we can address any deficiencies, at that time.

[Palmaceae]

I agree, I would take the grass away from the base of the plants, they would love that.

[ParkerK]

I’m definitely an eager to learn little seedling here in the palm world. But i’d have to agree with @Mandrew968. I’d say the palm is competing for nutrients and water with the encroaching turf.

If it was my palm, I would pull the grass out and away 2 feet or so from the trunk and mulch the area so that it’ll suppress the growth of the grass coming back and hold some more moisture in the soil. Apply some good fertilizer(I hear osmocote works great in FL) and irrigate in before the mulch is put down and I bet by the end of summer the Copernicia will be looking dandy!

Best of luck and looking forward to seeing some updates! 

[PalmatierMeg]

I agree with all of the above. Don't just plant palms in the ground and walk away. Remove all turf in a circle around each palm and mulch. Be diligent about not allowing weeds and grass to encroach on the mulched areas. You'll find fighting weeds is a never-ending war. If you don't have irrigation, don't forget to hand water your young or newly planted plants, esp. during the hottest part of dry season.

[sonoranfans]

baileys are nutrient pigs that the one in sun has K, and possibly Mg deficiencies.  The one in shade is ok but even it can look better with proper care.  I agree with others, it doesn't get enough water and that is likely due to high drainage sandy soil.  My bailey, in fairly rich soil, ammmended went through a moderate case of that kind of deficiency before I switched to florikan palm special(once every 6 month continuous slow release).  Even when watered well, they are picky about the right kind of fertilizer in fast draining sandy soil as it appears you have there.  K is the most common deficiency in florida soils and it can get bad in sandy soils.  In miami rocky soils with limestone, they do very well with less maintenance.  In sand you are going to have to ammend the soil and use the good fertilizer(florikan, osmotic membrane release).  And yes, remove grass from the root area it hogs up water and fertilizer from the palm.

[Missi]

Being that they're from a similar climate and habitat as S. FL, I assumed they needed no special care.  I had NO CLUE baileyanas were that needy! My "soil" is incredibly fast draining. It's basically sugar sand with limestone cap rock. I do always amend with Canadian peat and Black Kow or commercial compost (and sometimes additionally top soil) when first planting in ground, then mulch but I'm sure that leaches quite quickly. I do tend to neglect my in ground plants because I have difficulty keeping up with the weeding/centipede grass. I will make a point to be more cognizant of that going forward. I do have a sprinkler system and run it every other day in the winter, however, the area the poorer-looking bailey is at gets less than the area the other one is in because it doesn't run as long. Also, It's quite far from my garden hose hooked to the well (I know - excuses, excuses). It also gets less attention because it is located in the front, and I am rarely out in the front yard. Time for me to make some changes.

Regarding fertilizer for in ground palms, Florikan is the best? Is it one of these, basically a NPK mix? https://www.florikan.com/gal-xeone-portfolio

Thank you guys so very much for the guidance and please keep it coming. 

[Missi]

I'm looking forward to putting some gloves on and going to town on the grass and weeds around all of my in ground palms this weekend!  I'll go 2' out as suggested above. Any suggestions on keeping a nice neat circle short of putting down edgers?

[PalmatierMeg]

I don't measure, I approximate. Buy extra lengths of hose to extend your reach. Also be prepared to do the same routine for those bottle palms and any other palms/plants you care about that are being smothered by sod. BTW, come Feb. or so, Lowe's should have a mulch sale of a $1 per bag in case you want to load up. Well, that's in Cape Coral/Ft. Myers; I can't speak for Naples/Collier County.

[sonoranfans]

Missy, these copernicias put down big roots, but this will not happen if you dont keep then wet and fed when they are small.  Once the palm established itself( ~5') it will be drought resistant.  I put down 1/3 organics in a 3'Diameter x 3depth' hole when I planted mine.  It was overkill and the roots were only 10-12" deep in a pot.  those are very shallow roots in sandy soil.  I would hand water both and florikan and top much as well every 6 months till they look nice.   My bailey seemed stuck at first, wouldnt put on height or pump out new leaves(1-2/yr).  Once the roots establish it will be much more drought tolerant.  Mine recently had 2 1/2 months of no irrigation water due to irrigation failure after irma and it looks great.  I have also started putting down some crushed coral to keep they pH alkaline(after this pic was taken).

[Missi]

2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Missy, these copernicias put down big roots, but this will not happen if you dont keep then wet and fed when they are small.  Once the palm established itself( ~5') it will be drought resistant.  I put down 1/3 organics in a 3'Diameter x 3depth' hole when I planted mine.  It was overkill and the roots were only 10-12" deep in a pot.  those are very shallow roots in sandy soil.  I would hand water both and florikan and top much as well every 6 months till they look nice.   My bailey seemed stuck at first, wouldnt put on height or pump out new leaves(1-2/yr).  Once the roots establish it will be much more drought tolerant.  Mine recently had 2 1/2 months of no irrigation water due to irrigation failure after irma and it looks great.  I have also started putting down some crushed coral to keep they pH alkaline(after this pic was taken).

That sounds like a great plan! Thank you! Your baileys are gorgeous  Oh and it looks like you still have an up-right Ceiba! Irma knocked mine down.

I'm having trouble finding the Florikan palm fert, even when I Google it. Does anyone sell it, or is it hard to find like Nutricote is? This is my result when I search 'palm' on the Florikan website: https://www.florikan.com/gal-xeone-portfolio

[sonoranfans]

big earth landscape supply in palmetto has it.  They also have other stores.  Best time release for high drainage soils, cant be washed away and releases as it gets warm out.  I might try putting some topsoil and mulch around you sick one.

[Missi]

3 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

big earth landscape supply in palmetto has it.  They also have other stores.  Best time release for high drainage soils, cant be washed away and releases as it gets warm out.  I might try putting some topsoil and mulch around you sick one.

I can't find it on their website either. When you have a moment can you snap a pic of the packaging please? Meanwhile I've emailed Florikan! 

[sonoranfans]

I would call your local big earth supply before you take the trip just to be sure they have it.  A  few handfuls should get them started as their roots are still small.   http://www.bigearthsupply.com/landscape-gardening-products/tampa-bay-fertilizer/tampa-palm-citrus-fertilizer.html 8-2-12-180 LNDss.  the 180 at the end of the name is the days of delivery, 180 days 6 months.

 

[Missi]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

I would call your local big earth supply before you take the trip just to be sure they have it.  A  few handfuls should get them started as their roots are still small.   http://www.bigearthsupply.com/landscape-gardening-products/tampa-bay-fertilizer/tampa-palm-citrus-fertilizer.html 8-2-12-180 LNDss.  the 180 at the end of the name is the days of delivery, 180 days 6 months.

 

Thanks Tom! I don't have a local Big Earth! Why is there one in Bradenton AND Sarasota?! LOL Share the goodness and put one in Ft. Myers or Naples! 

[Missi]

This weekend's project: Pulling out dead grass around all the palms!  Picking up a bunch of top soil and melaleuca mulch tonight.

[Missi]

This might be enough to cover around the front palms. Back palms will take double or triple. I'll figure that out for next weekend. Bought all the melaleuca mulch and top soil they had left out. Hopefully they stock up for next weekend! 

Go ninja! Go ninja, go!! 

[CB Lisa]

Sounds like a fun weekend to me! Who needs to work out?!?  

[Moose]

I agree with Tom, Baileys take awhile to establish the deep penetrating roots. Follow the good advice from the others, it will turn into a happy palm in time.

 

[Missi]

We did 7 palms and a tree yesterday (20-some more to go ). The centipede grass had deep (nutrient-thieving!) roots and even after 2 weeks from being sprayed by Roundup, it was only half-dead. It held in there and did NOT want to be removed. Had to put my back into it! My body is still sore even with Bayer Back & Body lol However, mulch awaits!

[Elvis Cruz]

Hi Missi,

I have been fortunate enough to see Copernicia baileyana in habitat in Cuba.  The ground was firm but very wet, in some places had an inch or so of standing water.

This palm loves to drink.  

Seeing the picture, with dry grass nearby, I concur with others who say it is thirsty.   Perhaps also in need of potassium, and nutrition in general.

You might consider installing a drip irrigation system with a timer.  Not too expensive, makes life much easier, and the palm likes getting regular water.

Good luck and happy palming!

[Missi]

5 hours ago, Elvis Cruz said:

Hi Missi,

I have been fortunate enough to see Copernicia baileyana in habitat in Cuba.  The ground was firm but very wet, in some places had an inch or so of standing water.

This palm loves to drink.  

Seeing the picture, with dry grass nearby, I concur with others who say it is thirsty.   Perhaps also in need of potassium, and nutrition in general.

You might consider installing a drip irrigation system with a timer.  Not too expensive, makes life much easier, and the palm likes getting regular water.

Good luck and happy palming!

How awesome to see Cuban Copernicia in habitat! Thank you for sharing your first-hand observations! I'll look into a drip irrigation set up for it to use during my dry season.

[DoomsDave]

Thanks to @Mandrew968, @sonoranfans, @Elvis Cruz. @PalmatierMeg and all the others for helping @Missi and the rest of us!

[sonoranfans]

16 hours ago, Missi said:

How awesome to see Cuban Copernicia in habitat! Thank you for sharing your first-hand observations! I'll look into a drip irrigation set up for it to use during my dry season.

Missi, I use micro sprinklers on my HOA irrigation system, I replaced some of the popups.  It waters 2x a week, a scheduled well valve access. I tried drippers but, in high drainage sandy soil, drippers tend to give a small wet zone, harder to fully wet root areas as the palm  grows larger.  I use one variable micro sprayer(7-14 gal hr) for my bailey, wets the whole root zone.  I used drippers with great success in clay soils where lots of capillary wicking action happens due to slower drainage.   As they were small and grew in, I used to hand water 2x a week to supplement the HOA well irrigation..  I also expanded the mulch zone just by throwing more of that mulch on top of the grass and edging it, eventually the grass will give up.  When those baileys get big you will want a bigger mulch/ferililizer area(1-2ft more around roots).  Looking forward to seeing your baileys grow in!  This forum is where I learned 95% of what I know about growing these palms.   You are in a great place to learn, that never stops here.

[Missi]

18 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Thanks to @Mandrew968, @sonoranfans, @Elvis Cruz. @PalmatierMeg and all the others for helping @Missi and the rest of us!

Right?! 

3 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Missi, I use micro sprinklers on my HOA irrigation system, I replaced some of the popups.  It waters 2x a week, a scheduled well valve access. I tried drippers but, in high drainage sandy soil, drippers tend to give a small wet zone, harder to fully wet root areas as the palm  grows larger.  I use one variable micro sprayer(7-14 gal hr) for my bailey, wets the whole root zone.  I used drippers with great success in clay soils where lots of capillary wicking action happens due to slower drainage.   As they were small and grew in, I used to hand water 2x a week to supplement the HOA well irrigation..  I also expanded the mulch zone just by throwing more of that mulch on top of the grass and edging it, eventually the grass will give up.  When those baileys get big you will want a bigger mulch/ferililizer area(1-2ft more around roots).  Looking forward to seeing your baileys grow in!  This forum is where I learned 95% of what I know about growing these palms.   You are in a great place to learn, that never stops here.

Hmm...micro sprinklers? Is that just the smaller, lower horizontal fan fixture? Like the one below, rather than the larger fixture that sprays a jet up and far out and rotates? If so, I have one near the full sun bailey (the sad looking one), but it only runs for a half hour every other day  I meant to extend that zone timer over the weekend. Will do that tonight. Thank you for the report on drippers. Saves me time, money, and frustration (and I can definitely use less frustration in my life )!

[sonoranfans]

3 minutes ago, Missi said:

Right?! 

Hmm...micro sprinklers? Is that just the smaller, lower horizontal fan fixture? Like the one below, rather than the larger fixture that sprays a jet up and far out and rotates? If so, I have one near the full sun bailey (the sad looking one), but it only runs for a half hour every other day  I meant to extend that zone timer over the weekend. Will do that tonight. Thank you for the report on drippers. Saves me time, money, and frustration (and I can definitely use less frustration in my life )!

Missy those are the standard popup sprinklers in my yard as well.  Here are the micro sprinklers:https://www.digcorp.com/drip-irrigation-homeowner/micro-sprinklers-micro-sprayers.  If your popups are in a non grass area you can remove some of them and add the microsprinklers/sprayers with an irrigation tube extension and 1/4" tubing to the micro sprayers.  In the middle of grass its not as easy as you may have to tap off the 3/4" line(T connector) ahead of the popup and bury the extension 6"-8" under ground to a place near the palm.  I have not used these on my fallaensis since it was in the middle of a grassy area and I was required by the HOA to keep the grass out front for now.  But that fallaensis is in a low spot where irrigation drainage always flows to and it now has a huge/deep root system after 6 years in the ground.  Today it only sees rare hand watering/soaking and 2x a week of the HOA supplied pop ups and the drainage from that.  Its more work if you have to run longer extensions of the irrigation tubing to the area, but it could make things easier for you in terms of manual watering and it directs more water into the root zone.

[Missi]

2 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Missy those are the standard popup sprinklers in my yard as well.  Here are the micro sprinklers:https://www.digcorp.com/drip-irrigation-homeowner/micro-sprinklers-micro-sprayers.  If your popups are in a non grass area you can remove some of them and add the microsprinklers/sprayers with an irrigation tube extension and 1/4" tubing to the micro sprayers.  In the middle of grass its not as easy as you may have to tap off the 3/4" line(T connector) ahead of the popup and bury the extension 6"-8" under ground to a place near the palm.  I have not used these on my fallaensis since it was in the middle of a grassy area and I was required by the HOA to keep the grass out front for now.  But that fallaensis is in a low spot where irrigation drainage always flows to and it now has a huge/deep root system after 6 years in the ground.  Today it only sees rare hand watering/soaking and 2x a week of the HOA supplied pop ups and the drainage from that.  Its more work if you have to run longer extensions of the irrigation tubing to the area, but it could make things easier for you in terms of manual watering and it directs more water into the root zone.

Crud. They're all in grassy areas. However, I couldn't care less about my grass and am okay with killing it to get to the pipes. The popup closest to the bailey is only maybe 4' away.