Phoenix reclinata - gender reveal

[Josue Diaz]

I noticed my two reclinata are about to bloom.  I'm hoping i have at least 1 female. Anyone want to take a wild guess? 

[Josue Diaz]

[Josue Diaz]

[Fusca]

They look good - don't have a clue about the gender.  What about that canariensis?  If it's a male it could be hybridizing time!

Jon

[Josue Diaz]

44 minutes ago, Fusca said:

They look good - don't have a clue about the gender.  What about that canariensis?  If it's a male it could be hybridizing time!

Jon

The canariensis is male! I've already entertained the idea of cross-pollination! Is it as easy as dusting a male inflo on a female inflo? 

[Fusca]

7 minutes ago, Josue Diaz said:

The canariensis is male! I've already entertained the idea of cross-pollination! Is it as easy as dusting a male inflo on a female inflo? 

I've not done it myself, but I've read where a male canariensis can end up pollinating a female phoenix miles away!  So unless your area has no wind or pollinating critters I'm guessing it will happily "contribute" without assistance on your part!  I think you'd have to really work at it to keep it from creating hybrid seed.

Jon

[iwan]

I wonder if your palms are hybrids already.  Both of my reclinata have suckered from a very small size.  Phoenix reclinata x canariensis is a huge palm.  Seedlings from that mix would dominate your yard.  I have several open pollinated F2 seedlings and even with 2 acres, I cannot decide where I would plant maybe one or maybe two max.  They are that dominating.  I would cross your palms with roebelinii (if they turn out female) for a much more garden friendly hybrid (hopefully).

[Josue Diaz]

4 hours ago, iwan said:

I wonder if your palms are hybrids already.  Both of my reclinata have suckered from a very small size.  Phoenix reclinata x canariensis is a huge palm.  Seedlings from that mix would dominate your yard.  I have several open pollinated F2 seedlings and even with 2 acres, I cannot decide where I would plant maybe one or maybe two max.  They are that dominating.  I would cross your palms with roebelinii (if they turn out female) for a much more garden friendly hybrid (hopefully).

One of them started growing a pup last summer, but it suddenly just shriveled away. No other pups on either yet. I have two rupicola also. My larger one may be of flowering age and size soon. I'd love to cross canariensis pollen on rupicola flowers .

 

Mind sharing photos of your reclinatas? And hybrids?

Edited April 3, 2018 by Josue Diaz

[Phoenikakias]

16 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

This should be imho a boy!

[iwan]

2 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

One of them started growing a pup last summer, but it suddenly just shriveled away. No other pups on either yet. I have two rupicola also. My larger one may be of flowering age and size soon. I'd love to cross canariensis pollen on rupicola flowers .

 

Mind sharing photos of your reclinatas? And hybrids?

I am always looking for intentional Phoenix hybrids.  Unfortunately, unless they are controlled pollinations (and sometimes even if controlled), there is no knowing what they will turn out like for several years.  Anything with rupicola in it has a potential to look nice.

Right now my reclinata's and most of my hybrids are not photogenic due to weeds or other clutter that I have yet to get under control, but I did start taking my spring documentation pictures over the weekend.  I have posted one of the reclinata as compared to reclinata vs roebelinii on here, maybe last fall.  I also have a few other x roebelinii hybrids that hopefully at least one will turn out more like roebelinii, but be hardy.  I do have pictures of the parent of my reclinata x canariensis (OP) F2 seedlings from Edith Bergstrom's garden and it is a monster.  You don't want that or reclinata x dactlifera hybrids for your garden, which would be your most likely open pollinated sources.

So far all of my Phoenix are female and I have not seen any mature Phoenix within a couple miles, but I am sure there are in someone's back yard or one of the ranches.  From open pollination, both of my canariensis have a moderate, but not full fruit set but the reclinata x roebelinii only produces a few fruits even though it has been blooming for several years.

Edited April 3, 2018 by iwan

[Laaz]

My male Phoenix theophrasti will be blooming soon if anyone is interested in pollen.

[Phoenikakias]

5 minutes ago, Laaz said:

My male Phoenix theophrasti will be blooming soon if anyone is interested in pollen.

Are the spathes like those?:

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

One of them started growing a pup last summer, but it suddenly just shriveled away. No other pups on either yet. I have two rupicola also. My larger one may be of flowering age and size soon. I'd love to cross canariensis pollen on rupicola flowers .

 

Mind sharing photos of your reclinatas? And hybrids?

Here's my female reclinata

[Phoenikakias]

And these are my hybrids reclinata. There are two discrete individuals closely planted. 

And one male spathe of one of these hybrids

Edited April 3, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Laaz]

44 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Are the spathes like those?:

Not that far out yet, I posted a phot last year when it was blooming.

[Laaz]

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/52936-cretan-date-palm/#comment-801651

[Fusca]

On 4/2/2018, 8:36:52, Josue Diaz said:

I'm hoping i have at least 1 female.

Josue,

I hope you get a female and a male - at least you can get some experience if you decide to hand-pollinate and will have more options. 

Jon

[Josue Diaz]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Josue,

I hope you get a female and a male - at least you can get some experience if you decide to hand-pollinate and will have more options. 

Jon

Thanks, me too!

[iwan]

Not the best picture, but here is Edith's reclinata x canariensis taken in 2017.

 

The trunks don't look too imposing, but the top growth sure is.

 

Here is is in 2007 for a growth comparison.  Doesn't appear to be a particularly fast grower.

 

 

[iwan]

My reclinata x roebelinii (Ray Laub hybrid) on the right and reclinata (Gary Woods) on the left from Nov 2016.  Both were planted in 2008.  The hybrid was from a 2G citrus pot, the reclinata from a 15G.  The reclinata burns below about 25F and completely defoliates and often loses some trunks with extended freezes in the low 20's.  The hybrid will defoliate with extended freezes in the low 20's but always recovers quickly.  It has survived 18F in the 2007 freeze. 

 

A little closer view of the reclinata.  This one is currently in the process of being moved.  I am tired of seeing frost protection and/or a damaged palm in a prime location.  Sorry for the impromptu erosion control in the first picture.  This is a seasonal drainage path and last year we had almost 200% of our normal rainfall.

 

[iwan]

Neither of my reclinata have flowered.  The hybrid has flowered for several years now.

[Josue Diaz]

IT'S A GIRL (me thinks). Now waiting on the other one to show us

[Phoenikakias]

Yes, this is a girl.  How about trying to cross pollinate it with theophrasti? 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Josue Diaz]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Yes, this is a girl.  How about trying to cross pollinate it with theophrasti? 

Will it produce viable seed it's first time around?

On 4/3/2018, 1:02:42, Laaz said:

My male Phoenix theophrasti will be blooming soon if anyone is interested in pollen.

Laaz, how's that pollen coming along? 

[Laaz]

Still haven't opened.

 

[iwan]

You may not get anything the first inflorescence or two, but bag it anyway to control your pollination.

[Ben in Norcal]

I have canariensis, reclinata, and sylvestris all throwing spathes.  The canariensis is a male but not sure about the others.  It's too damn wet after our Pineapple Express to get out on my slope and figure out what they are.  First year for the latter two.

Going to have tons of inflorescences this year - also have mules and tons of Coco Queens throwing spathes.

[iwan]

reclinata x sylvestris could be interesting!

[dalmatiansoap]

Still looking for reclinata seeds, so if some of u guys will be interested to share (sale) some of the coming please count me in :)

[Laaz]

One pod is starting to open...

 

 

[Phoenikakias]

It would be exciting, if we could test suitability both of sylvestris and theophrasti's pollen for cross pollination.

[Josue Diaz]

On 4/4/2018, 8:52:15, iwan said:

Not the best picture, but here is Edith's reclinata x canariensis taken in 2017.

 

The trunks don't look too imposing, but the top growth sure is.

 

Here is is in 2007 for a growth comparison.  Doesn't appear to be a particularly fast grower.

 

 

These look pretty cool, definitely much larger than what i have space for

On 4/7/2018, 10:22:23, Ben in Norcal said:

I have canariensis, reclinata, and sylvestris all throwing spathes.  The canariensis is a male but not sure about the others.  It's too damn wet after our Pineapple Express to get out on my slope and figure out what they are.  First year for the latter two.

Going to have tons of inflorescences this year - also have mules and tons of Coco Queens throwing spathes.

Are S. Schizophylla x romanzoffiana sterile like xButiagrus? A hybrid of the two might be a cool experiment.

 

On 4/8/2018, 8:11:58, Laaz said:

One pod is starting to open...

 

 

I've never done any controlled pollination (or any pollination for that matter) but I'm willing to try it out.

[iwan]

49 minutes ago, Josue Diaz said:

These look pretty cool, definitely much larger than what i have space for

Are S. Schizophylla x romanzoffiana sterile like xButiagrus? A hybrid of the two might be a cool experiment.

 

Since they are both Syagrus, they are likely fertile, but I don't claim to be a botanist (not even on TV).

[Phoenikakias]

On 3/4/2018, 3:54:22, iwan said:

I wonder if your palms are hybrids already.  Both of my reclinata have suckered from a very small size.  Phoenix reclinata x canariensis is a huge palm.  Seedlings from that mix would dominate your yard.  I have several open pollinated F2 seedlings and even with 2 acres, I cannot decide where I would plant maybe one or maybe two max.  They are that dominating.  I would cross your palms with roebelinii (if they turn out female) for a much more garden friendly hybrid (hopefully).

Prof. D. Rivera in the University of Murcia (Spain) has suggested to me (in a personal message), that only reclinata and theophasti have extensive black stripes and dots on petiole and base of oldest living leaves. Colororation is reminiscent of fungal attack but it is totally healthy. Maybe this feature could help differentiate a pure reclinata pecimen from a reclinata hybrid (at least all my reclinata hybrids are free of the black color), or just ascertain reclinata heritage of a Phoenix hybrid.

[Josue Diaz]

On 4/6/2018, 11:31:57, Phoenikakias said:

Yes, this is a girl.  How about trying to cross pollinate it with theophrasti? 

 

On 4/7/2018, 3:49:31, iwan said:

reclinata x sylvestris could be interesting!

 

On 4/3/2018, 1:02:42, Laaz said:

My male Phoenix theophrasti will be blooming soon if anyone is interested in pollen.

Laaz sent over a generous amount of pollen from his Phoenix theophrasti, which i got today. My only "experience" with controlled pollination has been watching a short Dirty Jobs episode with Mike Rowe on how commercial dates are pollenated, so I am by no stretch of the word an expert. 

I'm not sure how long pollen is viable, and neither am i sure how long female flowers are receptive, so I pollenated all of the open spathes today. Some of the spathes have been open for about two weeks, others less time, and one wasn't completely open yet, so I mechanically opened it and pollenated that one too. 

First thing's first! I removed the sheaths to access the flowers easily. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Josue Diaz

[Josue Diaz]

After removing the sheaths, I placed the entire inflorescence into the bag containing theophrasti pollen. 

After a good shake, the flowers looked like this. Look closely and you'll see they're coated with pollen.

 

[Josue Diaz]

Lastly, to control the pollination a bit, I covered the inflorescence with paper bags. This would hopefully keep insects and wind from bringing canariensis pollen - of which there are a handful in close proximity. 

[Josue Diaz]

Any idea how long it'll be before I know if the flowers will produce fruit? I pollenated 3 inflorescence on this palm, and 1 on my second reclinata - which turned out to be female also. I have three more inflorescence that are not yet open. 

[Phoenikakias]

I would not leave theo's pollen longer than 4 weeks outside the fridge. In fact I would rathe keep it inside it already as long as it is not used. I would further let it again obtain outdoors temperature prior to cross pollination. That is that you aim to use all pollen right now. If you want to store it longer than one month, then you probably have to preserve it in deep freezing conditions.

[Phoenikakias]

But how are you sure, that inflorescences  have not been already cross pollinated by pollen form nearby Phoenix specimens?