Phoenix reclinata - gender reveal

[Kris]

38 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

But how are you sure, that inflorescences  have not been already cross pollinated by pollen form nearby Phoenix specimens?

[Josue Diaz]

6 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

But how are you sure, that inflorescences  have not been already cross pollinated by pollen form nearby Phoenix specimens?

I'm not  they probably have.

[Phoenikakias]

 

1 hour ago, Josue Diaz said:

I'm not  they probably have.

Pity, cause we have just missed an opportunity to check reliably once again  compatibility of theo's pollen with other Phoenix spp regarding a cross pollination. I have tried in multiple occasions to preform cross pollination using my own theo's pollen and I was always confronted with very poor results or total failure. This could be a significant discovery, since by a recent taxonomical study theophrasti is considered only a feral dactylifera. With a minor detail that cross pollination with dacty's pollen has been always resulting for me to a big crops of pollinated fruits and viable seeds, quite the contrary to the case of theo's pollen. Of course botanists and taxonomists do not gather pollen and produce hybrids, their work resembles  instead rather an instant inspection compared to the decades long cultivation of plants. So we, growers, could provide them with interesting information.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Fusca]

Is it possible to get multiple pollination from 2 species on the same inflorescence?  ie, some female flowers pollinated by canariensis and others by theophrasti?  Josue definitely seems to have some theophrasti pollen on there.  I guess either way he might get some viable seed assuming that everything else works out.  If not it could be tried again next flowering session.  Practice makes perfect. 

Jon

[Josue Diaz]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

 

Pity, cause we have just missed an opportunity to check reliably once again  compatibility of theo's pollen with other Phoenix spp regarding a cross pollination. I have tried in multiple occasions to preform cross pollination using my own theo's pollen and I was always confronted with very poor results or total failure. This could be a significant discovery, since by a recent taxonomical study theophrasti is considered only a feral dactylifera. With a minor detail that cross pollination with dacty's pollen has been always resulting for me to a big crops of pollinated fruits and viable seeds, quite the contrary to the case of theo's pollen. Of course botanists and taxonomists do not gather pollen and produce hybrids, their work resembles  instead rather an instant inspection compared to the decades long cultivation of plants. So we, growers, could provide them with interesting information.

I have a male canariensis in the backyard and my neighbor has a male canariensis also, but neither is blooming at the moment. Down the street is a dactylifera but I'm not sure whether it's male or female. 

3 of the 4 inflorescence I pollinated with theophrasti pollen were open and the possibility of cross pollination exists. The 4th spathe was just beginning to open and that one I'm fairly certain wouldn't have had the chance to be pollinated because I mechanically opened the spathe to expose the flowers. I have 3 more spathes left that are not yet open so I'll try the theoprasti pollen on those also.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Josue Diaz

[Laaz]

There are 8 more spathe's pushing out, so if you need more just let me know.

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

I have a male canariensis in the backyard and my neighbor has a male canariensis also, but neither is blooming at the moment. Down the street is a dactylifera but I'm not sure whether it's male or female. 

3 of the 4 inflorescence I pollinated with theophrasti pollen were open and the possibility of cross pollination exists. The 4th spathe was just beginning to open and that one I'm fairly certain wouldn't have had the chance to be pollinated because I mechanically opened the spathe to expose the flowers. I have 3 more spathes left that are not yet open so I'll try the theoprasti pollen on those also.

Unopened spathes should be protected through bags. Better not use plastic ones, cause they induce a high moisture condensation, which affects very negatively pollination (pollen becomes clumpy and sticky). Instead I think that frost protection cloth or fabric used for vacuum cleaner bags is more suitable.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Josue Diaz]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Unopened spathes should be protected through bags. Better not use plastic ones, cause they induce a high moisture condensation, which affects very negatively pollination (pollen becomes clumpy and sticky). Instead I think that frost protection cloth or fabric used for vacuum cleaner bags is more suitable.

Ok, I'll cover the remaining unopened spathes with paper bags and pollinate those when they open. 

3 hours ago, Laaz said:

There are 8 more spathe's pushing out, so if you need more just let me know.

Awesome,  I'll send you a PM

[Josue Diaz]

On 4/20/2018, 8:59:52, Phoenikakias said:

 

Pity, cause we have just missed an opportunity to check reliably once again  compatibility of theo's pollen with other Phoenix spp regarding a cross pollination. I have tried in multiple occasions to preform cross pollination using my own theo's pollen and I was always confronted with very poor results or total failure. This could be a significant discovery, since by a recent taxonomical study theophrasti is considered only a feral dactylifera. With a minor detail that cross pollination with dacty's pollen has been always resulting for me to a big crops of pollinated fruits and viable seeds, quite the contrary to the case of theo's pollen. Of course botanists and taxonomists do not gather pollen and produce hybrids, their work resembles  instead rather an instant inspection compared to the decades long cultivation of plants. So we, growers, could provide them with interesting information.

 

On 4/20/2018, 12:12:36, Laaz said:

There are 8 more spathe's pushing out, so if you need more just let me know.

Theres definitely swelling (and greening) of the fruits now. I also checked both canariensis nearby and neither is flowering so that reduces the likelihood of them being pollenated by canariensis. 

 

[Josue Diaz]

A lot of the fruit dropped but what is left looks like it will mature. 

 

[Howeadypsis]

On 03/04/2018, 21:12:45, Phoenikakias said:

Are the spathes like those?:

Ah I was wondering from the first pics where the indication of flowering is. I see them in this pic.

[Laaz]

Good job!

[Phoenikakias]

On 2/6/2018, 7:13:20, Josue Diaz said:

A lot of the fruit dropped but what is left looks like it will mature. 

 

Good start , but I recommend still a restricted optimism.

[Phoenikakias]

On 20/4/2018, 8:42:55, Josue Diaz said:

I have a male canariensis in the backyard and my neighbor has a male canariensis also, but neither is blooming at the moment. Down the street is a dactylifera but I'm not sure whether it's male or female. 

3 of the 4 inflorescence I pollinated with theophrasti pollen were open and the possibility of cross pollination exists. The 4th spathe was just beginning to open and that one I'm fairly certain wouldn't have had the chance to be pollinated because I mechanically opened the spathe to expose the flowers. I have 3 more spathes left that are not yet open so I'll try the theoprasti pollen on those also.

Any updates on the cross pollination enterprise? 

Sometimes cross pollination results to funny side effects, like on those pollinated fruits on my P loureiroi, which got pollinated by P dactylifera. It seems as if seed develops faster or gets bigger than surrounding flesh. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Josue Diaz]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Any updates on the cross pollination enterprise? 

Sometimes cross pollination results to funny side effects, like on those pollinated fruits on my P loureiroi, which got pollinated by P dactylifera. It seems as if seed develops faster or gets bigger than surrounding flesh. 

I have some fruit that i think will mature. The inflorescence that were pollinated by hand have retained the most fruit compared to those i didn't pollinate. Some of those didn't hold any fruit. 

 

[Josue Diaz]

Looks like the fruit is beginning to ripen

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

Looks like the fruit is beginning to ripen

Awesome Josue!  Looks like you'll soon be awarded a professional hybridizer certificate! 

Jon

[Jim in Los Altos]

I love it when mine are in full fruiting mode. Seeds sprout all over the place though.

[Josue Diaz]

@Jim in Los Altos is the long fruiting stem typical of reclinata? Mine are nestled right next to the trunk, probably no longer than 6 inches. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

On September 26, 2018 at 8:26:42 AM, Josue Diaz said:

@Jim in Los Altos is the long fruiting stem typical of reclinata? Mine are nestled right next to the trunk, probably no longer than 6 inches. 

There's so much variability in these because of hybridization. This palm was sold to me as a pure reclinata 20 years ago. It routinely receives pollen from nearby P. robeleneiii. I don't know if mine have unusually long stems on their infructescence. My other three P. reclinata are males and have much shorter inflorescences. 

[Phoenikakias]

7 minutes ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

There's so much variability in these because of hybridization. This palm was sold to me as a pure reclinata 20 years ago. It routinely receives pollen from nearby P. robeleneiii. I don't know if mine have unusually long stems on their infructescence. My other three P. reclinata are males and have much shorter inflorescences. 

Difference in the length of inflorescences between the sexes is completely normal. A genuine reclinata has imo reddish brown leaf sheaths, thin   long, rather tubular (in contrast to clearly flattened or conical in cross section and thick ones) acanthophylls and most importantly much black color on the oldest petioles and leaf boots. That said, taxonomists write about the existing variability of this sp maybe related also to certain ecotypes. So, what I have described  may refer only to a particular form (but the black color).

[Phoenikakias]

On 9/26/2018, 6:26:42, Josue Diaz said:

@Jim in Los Altos is the long fruiting stem typical of reclinata? Mine are nestled right next to the trunk, probably no longer than 6 inches. 

Hey Josue, are the fruits already ripe? It has passed a month since your last update.

[Josue Diaz]

14 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Hey Josue, are the fruits already ripe? It has passed a month since your last update.

Yep, about 70% of the fruit is ripe and harvested. I'm collecting ripe fruit daily. I'll keep a few, but most of the rest will go to @Laaz for providing the pollen. 

[Phoenikakias]

3 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

Yep, about 70% of the fruit is ripe and harvested. I'm collecting ripe fruit daily. I'll keep a few, but most of the rest will go to @Laaz for providing the pollen. 

 

3 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

Yep, about 70% of the fruit is ripe and harvested. I'm collecting ripe fruit daily. I'll keep a few, but most of the rest will go to @Laaz for providing the pollen. 

You do not have to wait for the remaining fruits to turn brownish and soft. If they are already uniformly deeply orange, you may collect them. Sometimes such seeds germinate faster and easier than the fully ripe, plus they do not run the risk of being attacked by borers while still hanging on fruit stalk.

[Phoenikakias]

On 9/28/2018, 9:33:29, Phoenikakias said:

Difference in the length of inflorescences between the sexes is completely normal. A genuine reclinata has imo reddish brown leaf sheaths, thin   long, rather tubular (in contrast to clearly flattened or conical in cross section and thick ones) acanthophylls and most importantly much black color on the oldest petioles and leaf boots. That said, taxonomists write about the existing variability of this sp maybe related also to certain ecotypes. So, what I have described  may refer only to a particular form (but the black color).

Black on old petioles of reclinata, it is a totally natural coloration, no disease symptom.

Left median acanthophyll of reclinata and on the right median acanthophyll of reclinata hybrid

Finally those acanthophylls compared to median acsnthophyll of Phoenix canariensis var porphyrocarpa

[Phoenikakias]

[Josue Diaz]

my first seeds from this cross are germinating

[Phoenikakias]

Which cross?

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Which cross?

I have just observed the tag. Ok then my question is answered. 

[Josue Diaz]

6 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

I have just observed the tag. Ok then my question is answered. 

yep, reclinata x theoprastii. 

@Laaz have any of yours started sprouting?

[Laaz]

Nothing so far.

[iwan]

1 hour ago, Josue Diaz said:

yep, reclinata x theoprastii. 

@Laaz have any of yours started sprouting?

That is going to be a vicious clump!  Hope you aren't going to plant that at your place Josue.

[Josue Diaz]

6 minutes ago, iwan said:

That is going to be a vicious clump!  Hope you aren't going to plant that at your place Josue.

I only kept a few seeds. Most are over on the east coast with Laaz. They were mostly an experiment for me. 

 

btw, my largest rupicola might be of blooming age soon. I'll keep you posted if you are still looking for pollen then. 

[iwan]

4 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

I only kept a few seeds. Most are over on the east coast with Laaz. They were mostly an experiment for me. 

 

btw, my largest rupicola might be of blooming age soon. I'll keep you posted if you are still looking for pollen then. 

Some rupicola pollen would be great!  It is too cold to grow the species here, but as the father in a cross... hmmm

[Phoenikakias]

17 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

yep, reclinata x theoprastii. 

@Laaz have any of yours started sprouting?

How about the seeds from the other reclinata cross with roebelenii; any success with them? If you need more seeds, just tell me. It would also be an interesting test of the purported hybrid vigor and cold hardiness on the east coast.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Phoenikakias

[Fusca]

19 hours ago, iwan said:

That is going to be a vicious clump!

That is what I was thinking!  Should be an interesting cross.  Here is my seedling from @Josue Diaz - I wrote the label wrong, it should be reclinata x theophrasti.  It germinated in 5-6 weeks.

Jon

 

[Josue Diaz]

6 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

How about the seeds from the other reclinata cross with roebelenii; any success with them? If you need more seeds, just tell me. It would also be an interesting test of the purported hybrid vigor and cold hardiness on the east coast.

I started those late, I'll check the seed pots. They should be sprouting soon though I'm sure.

2 hours ago, Fusca said:

That is what I was thinking!  Should be an interesting cross.  Here is my seedling from @Josue Diaz - I wrote the label wrong, it should be reclinata x theophrasti.  It germinated in 5-6 weeks.

Jon

 

Jon! Very cool! I look forward to seeing these grow up for you. 

[Fusca]

Thanks again Josue!  These should do well here.  So far I haven't noticed any hybrid vigor but as they progress it'll be more apparent.  Sorry for the photo quality...

[Estlander]

Have a bunch of P. Reclinata seedlings I germinated from seeds from a local P. Reclinata. Not sure if the mother plant is a hybrid of some kind that gives it extra cold hardiness to make it here in coastal NW FL panhandle 9a climate. It had no damage from the 2017/18 winter. But then again it didn’t get that cold here as it did in many other areas in deep south. 

P. Canariensis, P.  Dactylifera and P. Sylvestris  are everywhere around here, so they could easily be some type of a hybrid. 

Reclinatas are not exactly common around these parts, so can’t wait to plant one or two out in my yard. Not sure what I’m gonna do with the rest of them. 

Pictured below is the mother plant. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Estlander

[Phoenikakias]

 

Bump! This is the result of cross pollination of my P reclinata with pollen from P theophrasti.

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Phoenikakias