Update on Rio Grande Valley coconuts

[LF-TX]

Hello everyone, another winter has passed and summer is full-fledged now. Good news for our surviving coconuts — which leads me to ask: does anyone have pics or any other input on how their coconuts / other coconuts have been doing in the RGV lately? I have been out of town for almost the whole summer and was very occupied during the school year so I can only give a say about three coconuts in the Los Fresnos area. Two of them were mine, I’m sure some of y’all have seen them on another topic that I posted. Surprisingly, winter didn’t dent them in. For everyone that wasn’t up do date with the weather during the week of the 21st of June, a tremendous deluge hit the Valley. The Los Fresnos area recorded around 14 inches of rain for that week and other areas such as Mercedes and Weslaco recorded even more, miserable amounts of rain. So much damage was done that the gov. declared the whole valley a disaster zone. Coming back to my area, we saw flooding that only compared to that of Hurricane Dolly in 2008. My family and I left our house to avoid being trapped by the waters, thankfully the water only reached our first doorstep and didn’t come into the house like it did with Dolly. However, my already planted cocos didn’t have the opportunity to come with me onto dry land. The waters rose and my young cocos were completely submerged for three days in the polluted water, & the fact that I had watered them too much before the rains came didn’t help at all. So there goes my two cocos  Will definitely get more in the future. Now to the third coco I mentioned, that one was lost to the winter. The 5-6ft Gold coco was defoliated after the cold and the owners cut it down. If only they had watered it more and put it in a more sheltered, rich soiled area, it probably would’ve had a chance. I also think that they cut it down too soon, but oh well. The only good news I can give to y’all is that another Mexican coco that’s nearby survived the winter! It suffered a bit due to the cold but despite the damage, it always had at least a bit of green foliage. It’s doing okay now and I’m sure it’ll be just fine with all the rain we had. Very proud of that coco taken that it’s very exposed to the elements, not sure how many times it gets watered. Another good news, I found another young coco in the town of Indian Lake. It’s about 4-5ft and I’m suspecting that it’s a Mexican coco. The palm too was a little damaged by the cold but at the time I saw it, it seemed to be jumping back to life just fine. It was near a bed of water and is somewhat sheltered by all the lush vegetation. I see it thriving very much in the future. Now, I have no idea about the Brownsville & SPI coconuts, so, does anyone have any reports? 

Here are some photos by the NWS of Los Fresnos after the rains. https://www.weather.gov/bro/2018event_greatjuneflood

Rain totals for the Valley can be seen on the Overview and Rainfall tabs. 

Here is the photo of the Indian Lake coco.

[Xenon]

Nice coco! How are the other palms and tropicals doing? I'm dying to see some pics from the RGV. 

[LF-TX]

41 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Nice coco! How are the other palms and tropicals doing? I'm dying to see some pics from the RGV. 

They’re doing great actually! All the Royals are coming in very well, the Poincianas are full of foliage and a good number of them have bloomed too. Papayas and mangos are doing just fine as well. All the palms seem to be doing just fine. My neighbor’s coco looks as if nothing happened to it as well, I was really surprised. I must get a picture when I return to the Valley!

[LF-TX]

55 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Nice coco! How are the other palms and tropicals doing? I'm dying to see some pics from the RGV. 

Our Plumerias are doing well also. A family friend gave us a young one that survived the winter just fine  My hibiscus’ lost their leaves but are coming back. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by LF-TX

[LF-TX]

This is my neighbor’s coconut down my road in Los Fresnos TX. It’s a Mexican tall and as y’all can see, did just fine despite our unusually cold winter and snow. Was also spared from the floodwaters that we got in June. The palm is about 7 ft tall.

[LF-TX]

It’s just dawned upon me everyone that this palm didn’t receive any type of foliage burn from the cold while other cocos did... explain??? 

[IHB1979]

14 minutes ago, LF-TX said:

It’s just dawned upon me everyone that this palm didn’t receive any type of foliage burn from the cold while other cocos did... explain??? 

Nice coconut! Was the palm purchased and planted after winter? To me, it looks like it was recently planted as every frond is almost perfect. Specifically the lower fronds. It doesn't look weathered at all, which all plants would show a little after the winter you had in the RGV. Maybe it was protected with blankets & lights? 

I would recommend putting some mulch down to keep some moisture in that cracking desert soil.

[LF-TX]

5 minutes ago, IHB1979 said:

Nice coconut! Was the palm purchased and planted after winter? To me, it looks like it was recently planted as every frond is almost perfect. Specifically the lower fronds. It doesn't look weathered at all, which all plants would show a little after the winter you had in the RGV. Maybe it was protected with blankets & lights? 

I would recommend putting some mulch down to keep some moisture in that cracking desert soil.

Believe me or not, this coco has been in the ground for about two years now! My neighbor works at for Parks and Recreation at South Padre Island / Port Isabel and he’s near the beach often. He got a coconut that washed up on the beach, left it in his outdoor sink (over the winter if I’m not mistaken!) and it germinated. 

I know this is hard to believe but I’m here at my neighbors house often. It’s probably unctouched since it’s on the house’s south side. All I know is that they water it often. Other than that, it’s pretty much open to all weather. 

I think the cracks you’re seeing in the picture may be stray strips of carpet grass, but anyways you’re right. The dirt is pretty much desert-like and does crack when it’s dry. 

[LF-TX]

13 minutes ago, IHB1979 said:

Nice coconut! Was the palm purchased and planted after winter? To me, it looks like it was recently planted as every frond is almost perfect. Specifically the lower fronds. It doesn't look weathered at all, which all plants would show a little after the winter you had in the RGV. Maybe it was protected with blankets & lights? 

I would recommend putting some mulch down to keep some moisture in that cracking desert soil.

Im also surprised at how it looks because in that part of the property, water drips off of the roof. So that means that when the cold rains come, the palm gets a good amount of cold drip, which I know they hate. 

[IHB1979]

52 minutes ago, LF-TX said:

Believe me or not, this coco has been in the ground for about two years now! My neighbor works at for Parks and Recreation at South Padre Island / Port Isabel and he’s near the beach often. He got a coconut that washed up on the beach, left it in his outdoor sink (over the winter if I’m not mistaken!) and it germinated. 

I know this is hard to believe but I’m here at my neighbors house often. It’s probably unctouched since it’s on the house’s south side. All I know is that they water it often. Other than that, it’s pretty much open to all weather. 

I think the cracks you’re seeing in the picture may be stray strips of carpet grass, but anyways you’re right. The dirt is pretty much desert-like and does crack when it’s dry. 

Only reason I questioned the coconut is that I grow them and mine show spotting and yellowing after a winter when temps drop in the low 40's, high 30's, especially the lower fronds. I was thinking that after the cold weather events the RGV had, day after day of near freezing wet weather that the palm would show damage. It usually takes a coconut about a season to fully replace the damaged fronds, as the new emerging growth has to slowly make it's way down to the lower part of the plant as the old fronds are replaced. 

It's a great looking coconut and I hope it continues it's rocket growth.

[LF-TX]

3 hours ago, IHB1979 said:

Only reason I questioned the coconut is that I grow them and mine show spotting and yellowing after a winter when temps drop in the low 40's, high 30's, especially the lower fronds. I was thinking that after the cold weather events the RGV had, day after day of near freezing wet weather that the palm would show damage. It usually takes a coconut about a season to fully replace the damaged fronds, as the new emerging growth has to slowly make it's way down to the lower part of the plant as the old fronds are replaced. 

It's a great looking coconut and I hope it continues it's rocket growth.

Perhaps you’re growing a different variety? I know the Mexican talls are amoung the most cold hardy 

[IHB1979]

How do you know the Mexican talls are among the most cold hardy? Would love to see the data as I'm growing coconuts in a similar climate to SPI and a Mexican tall would be a nice addition. I'm not growing any Mexican Talls, I currently have Panama Tall, Jamaican Tall, Somoan Dwarf and Red Spicata Dwarfs. I think the jury is out on any drastic difference in cold hardiness at such a small coconut plant size. Regardless, it's a great looking coconut and happy it made it through the winter untouched.

[LF-TX]

45 minutes ago, IHB1979 said:

How do you know the Mexican talls are among the most cold hardy? Would love to see the data as I'm growing coconuts in a similar climate to SPI and a Mexican tall would be a nice addition. I'm not growing any Mexican Talls, I currently have Panama Tall, Jamaican Tall, Somoan Dwarf and Red Spicata Dwarfs. I think the jury is out on any drastic difference in cold hardiness at such a small coconut plant size. Regardless, it's a great looking coconut and happy it made it through the winter untouched.

I really can’t say much about the varieties that you’ve listed, perhaps other members on Palmtalk can provide you with a little more input. As for my 2¢, here in the RGV I’ve seen in past winters that the Mexican talls are more resistant to the cold than the Gold variety. A 6/7 ft Gold coco here in Los Fresnos didn’t survive the cold, but my neighbor’s Mexican coco did just fine. Another Mexican coco (possibly a green malayan?) that was just about 100% exposed to the elements lost about 80% if it’s foliage but is now coming back to life. The well known SPI coco that’s on Red Snapper St is also a Mexican Tall. However, if I’m not mistaken (if so, someone please correct me, on anything for that matter) one of the tallest cocos in the Valley that’s located on Central Blvd in Brownsville in front of the Flamingo Motel was brought from Puerto Rico by the owner. Definitely shouldn’t be a Mexican Tall in that case, but I’m not sure exactly what variety it is. My point being, I’m not 100% about who is where in the cold hardy line. 

[Austinpalm]

I could be wrong but I thought the coconut palms at the Flamingo were Mexican tall's and the palm on Red Snapper was a Panamanian tall.  I try to go by both when I am in the area. There is another nice coconut on a nearby street (cannot think of the name) just a few blocks north of Red Snapper.  Not sure what it is.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

The two Coconut Palms at the Flamingo Motel are indeed Mexican Tall Coconut Palms, the MOST cold hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere.  Once they have some size to them and have been in the ground for a while, they are hardy down to about 26F, as these two have made it through some very bad winters and at least two snowstorms over the 13 years or so.  They were obtained in Matamoros by the previous owners of the motel.  Based on photos I have seen of similar ones growing in Matamoros, they can reach about 50ft. + tall in Matamoros (just across the river from Brownsville) if properly watered during the hot dry months, and frequently fruit there.  There are two along Red Snapper at South Padre Island.  The one in front of the home that is just two houses behind the Blue Marlin Grocery Store was brought from Puerto Rico by the lady who used to live there.  She told me she thought it was a dwarf variety, but based on its size and trunk shape, I think it is either a Maypan hybrid or a Panama Tall.  The other one at the end of the street on the side of the house appears to be a pure Mexican Tall like the two at the Flamingo Motel.  This palm would look so much better and be full of big nuts if it was properly watered during the hot dry months, but since the home appears to be rental property (I rarely see any vehicles there when I pass by the house), I don't think it gets much water, which is a shame.  Like Clay (Austinpalm) said, there is another nice mature one just two streets north of Red Snapper.  I am not sure what variety it is, but it has also made it through some really bad winters and recovered just fine and has a few nuts on it from time to time (if people in the Valley would properly water there coconut palms, they would be full of big nuts).  Speaking of nuts, I have personally counted 47 on the one from Puerto Rico, but the lady who planted it told me that one year she had 93 nuts on her palm!!!!  She obviously kept it watered well when she lived there, but I don't think she lives there anymore.  I will try to post some updated photos of my Corpus Christi Green Malayan Dwarf in a day or so.  It is recovering nicely from the 8 freezes we had in my yard over the last 2 winters (6 of those freezes just this past winter) and the minimal protection I gave it!

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Here is are some photos of my Green Malayan Dwarf Coconut Palm in Flour Bluff in Corpus Christi as it recovers from last winter.  The first photo is how it looked in March, and the last two photos are how it looks now.  It has another spear leaf coming up the middle and one that just opened a week or so ago.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

These two photos are how it looks now.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

[palmfriend]

On 8/7/2018, 9:25:57, LF-TX said:

This is my neighbor’s coconut down my road in Los Fresnos TX. It’s a Mexican tall and as y’all can see, did just fine despite our unusually cold winter and snow. Was also spared from the floodwaters that we got in June. The palm is about 7 ft tall.

That is a beauty! It looks good and strong - I am hoping for the best !

26 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

These two photos are how it looks now.

It`s bouncing back, John, and looks pretty well, just beautiful!

Best regards

Lars

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, palmfriend said:

That is a beauty! It looks good and strong - I am hoping for the best !

It`s bouncing back, John, and looks pretty well, just beautiful!

Best regards

Lars

 

Thanks, Lars.  I hope yours is doing well too.

John

[bubba]

Someday I am going to make it to the RGV. It is intriguing and a great place to test the edges of the envelope.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018‎ ‎6‎:‎13‎:‎37‎, bubba said:

Someday I am going to make it to the RGV. It is intriguing and a great place to test the edges of the envelope.

It really is a lot more tropical than it is given credit for, especially the east side of the Valley near the Laguna Madre (Brownsville, San Benito, Los Fresnos, Bayview, Laguna Vista, Laguna Heights, Port Isabel, and South Padre Island.  The Coconut Palms that are there would do so much better and be full of nuts if more frequently watered during the hot dry months.  There is so much more that could be grown there, but the local nurseries don't carry nearly as much as they could, and unfortunately they rarely carry any Coconut Palms, which they should regularly carry.  If Coconut Palms were regularly available, the Valley would be FULL of them.  There is a lot more interest in landscaping with them than they are available!  I have read that they can even be grown to maturity as far inland as McAllen, and I have personally seen a mature Mexican Tall (approximately 35ft. tall in overall height in the backyard of a rural nursery in the country on the north side of Edinburg, which is north of McAllen)!  I even think they could be commercially grown, at least to a limited extent, on the east side of Brownsville (the most tropical part of Brownsville), which is closer to the Laguna Madre than other parts of town, and the delta soil there is a rich good soil!

John

[GottmitAlex]

5 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

It really is a lot more tropical than it is given credit for, especially the east side of the Valley near the Laguna Madre (Brownsville, San Benito, Los Fresnos, Bayview, Laguna Vista, Laguna Heights, Port Isabel, and South Padre Island.  The Coconut Palms that are there would do so much better and be full of nuts if more frequently watered during the hot dry months.  There is so much more that could be grown there, but the local nurseries don't carry nearly as much as they could, and unfortunately they rarely carry any Coconut Palms, which they should regularly carry.  If Coconut Palms were regularly available, the Valley would be FULL of them.  There is a lot more interest in landscaping with them than they are available!  I have read that they can even be grown to maturity as far inland as McAllen, and I have personally seen a mature Mexican Tall (approximately 35ft. tall in overall height in the backyard of a rural nursery in the country on the north side of Edinburg, which is north of McAllen)!  I even think they could be commercially grown, at least to a limited extent, on the east side of Brownsville (the most tropical part of Brownsville), which is closer to the Laguna Madre than other parts of town, and the delta soil there is a rich good soil!

John

I wonder if the local sellers there take coconuts for granted and just don't mind either way...

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

13 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

I wonder if the local sellers there take coconuts for granted and just don't mind either way...

 

Alex,

They don't care and quite frankly are too stupid to tap into the local market for them.  I met a wealthy developer about 11 years ago who builds homes on South Padre Island, and he told me he would like to see a lot more of them on the island and plant them at his properties that he builds there.  The problem is, they just aren't available at local nurseries.  Even the Big Box stores (which I hate for many reasons) with all their lust for profits have stupidly overlooked this untapped market there!  A smart nursery owner/manager there would routinely sell them in 3 gal. to 7 gal. sizes, and even have some field grown ones that are starting to trunk available.  I know for a fact that they can get the officially approved certified Malayan nuts (Green, Golden, and probably Yellow Malayans too) and probably the Maypan Hybrid nuts also from the Costa Rican Coconut Board shipped to them from Costa Rica, then sprout the nuts and sell the palms, as a local nursery did this with a shipment of Green Malayan nuts about 8 to 10 years ago.  I bought a few of these Green Malayan Dwarf palms from her several years ago.  But she hasn't ordered any more seed nuts shipped to her since then. Her Green Malayan Dwarfs that she and her husband planted at their nursery have grown to maturity and are now producing good viable nuts (which they could in turn sprout and sell), but so far, as far as I know, they have only planted these sprouts at their home by the nursery.  I really think the nurseries there are missing the boat with them!  If I lived there, I would be growing and selling as many as I could, at least sprouts from beach nuts that I would collect, even if I didn't order officially certified seed nuts from Costa Rica. 

If a nursery owner is worried about losing any or them getting seriously injured in the occasional freeze there, they could have a greenhouse to put the young palms into in the event of a freeze below 31F or 32F.  I would however expose the young palms to 2 or 3 frosts and maybe even a brief light freeze unprotected to help harden them up for freezing weather.  I think this is a good idea and is what I do with mine the winter before I plant them in the ground, which is what I think has helped some of my younger ones over the last few years to almost make it through some fairly chilly winters here, when they otherwise would have been toast earlier in the season.  But to give mine an even better chance, I am going to use this technique and ONLY plant them when they are 8ft. to 10ft. tall in overall height, as opposed to planting them when they were only 3ft. to 4ft. tall in overall height like I used to do.  I think the juvenile ones that are a little bigger and a little older that have been exposed to a few frosts and a light brief freeze or two over a couple of winters while they are still in pots before they are planted in the ground in spring (March or April), would have the best chance of making it through the winters here in Corpus Christi, and would REALLY help them make it through the winters and almost thrive in the Rio Grande Valley.

John

[Manalto]

Coconuts are the best marketing tool there is for warm-weather resorts. SPI would do well to include them in the landscape.

[kinzyjr]

After reading this thread, it is certainly possible that the Mexican Tall can handle more cold than other varieties.  I have 2 Jamaican Tall/Atlantic Talls, 1 Maypan, and a Green Malayan.  I can't imagine leaving any of them out in 26F unprotected.

[Xenon]

24 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

After reading this thread, it is certainly possible that the Mexican Tall can handle more cold than other varieties.  I have 2 Jamaican Tall/Atlantic Talls, 1 Maypan, and a Green Malayan.  I can't imagine leaving any of them out in 26F unprotected.

I doubt they are any more cold hardy...when has a Mexican Tall survived 26F? They are completely defoliated/on the brink of death at 28F. Yes, they have survived a few freezes in south Texas, but so have Green Malayans, Yellow Malayans and various unnamed coconuts... 

Won't being seeing hundreds of coconuts in Texas anytime soon but I've noticed royal palms are becoming very very popular in the RGV (glancing at recent real estate lisitings will reflect this). Really adds to the tropical look. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, Manalto said:

Coconuts are the best marketing tool there is for warm-weather resorts. SPI would do well to include them in the landscape.

You are so right, James!  They would be especially suited planted around the swimming pools at the Gulf side resorts and condos that face the beach.  There, they would have a perfect microclimate facing the east towards the Gulf by the swimming pools and with the building giving off heat behind them too in the winter.  Under such conditions, if they were properly watered and fertilized, I could imagine Mexican Talls getting to be 50ft. + tall full of nuts, and Green Malayans getting to be 30ft. + tall and full of nuts.  Also, Golden Malayans under such conditions could probably get to be about 23ft. to 25ft. tall and also be full of nuts!

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

44 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

After reading this thread, it is certainly possible that the Mexican Tall can handle more cold than other varieties.  I have 2 Jamaican Tall/Atlantic Talls, 1 Maypan, and a Green Malayan.  I can't imagine leaving any of them out in 26F unprotected.

I think the Mexican Tall CERTAINLY IS more cold hardy than any other variety typically grown in the Western Hemisphere.  There is one in Ciudad Victoria, Mexico, that I have been told about by Richard Travis, a well know expert on palms in South Texas and the Rio Grande Valley, that survived the 1989 freeze, and it got REALLY cold (in the 20'sF I think) even that far south!  I wasn't referring to leaving any young or juvenile Coconut Palms out unprotected at 26F, just leaving my young ones in pots out for a 2 to 3 light frosts each winter and not being too concerned if they are exposed to a light brief freeze of 31F or 32F in their pots.  I honestly think this will strengthen them up.  By the way, I have read of reports of a few Jamaican Talls along the Central Florida coast surviving temps in the low to mid 20'sF in the 1989 freeze there.  So, older mature healthy palms CAN survive pretty cold temps, and the Mexican Tall, which is commonly grown from Matamoros southward along the Gulf Coast of Mexico would be exposed to more continental cold on a more regular basis than peninsular Florida is, so therefore this variety must be at least somewhat more cold hardy than the Jamaican Talls are even though there is a sceptic on here who questions this!  Judging by the size of the ones at the Flamingo Motel in Brownsville, and the mature one I have seen on the north colder side of Edinburg, north of McAllen out in the country away from any heat island effect and away from any buildings to protect it, there is NO DOUBT in my mind whatsoever that the Mexican Tall IS the most cold hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere!  The ones growing at the Flamingo Motel would look twice as good and make it through cold winters even better if they were adequately fertilized and adequately watered during the hot dry months there!  If this were the case, I seriously doubt they would be even close to being defoliated at 28F!  My Green Malayan Dwarf made it through 6 freezes this last winter with 3 of those freezes in the upper 20'sF WITHOUT being defoliated, so there is NO reason at all for our sceptic posting on here for a large mature and healthy Mexican Tall to fare even better!

John

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

I doubt they are any more cold hardy...when has a Mexican Tall survived 26F? They are completely defoliated/on the brink of death at 28F. Yes, they have survived a few freezes in south Texas, but so have Green Malayans, Yellow Malayans and various unnamed coconuts... 

Won't being seeing hundreds of coconuts in Texas anytime soon but I've noticed royal palms are becoming very very popular in the RGV (glancing at recent real estate lisitings will reflect this). Really adds to the tropical look. 

 

40 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I think the Mexican Tall CERTAINLY IS more cold hardy than any other variety typically grown in the Western Hemisphere.  There is one in Ciudad Victoria, Mexico, that I have been told about by Richard Travis, a well know expert on palms in South Texas and the Rio Grande Valley, that survived the 1989 freeze, and it got REALLY cold (in the 20'sF I think) even that far south!  I wasn't referring to leaving any young or juvenile Coconut Palms out unprotected at 26F, just leaving my young ones in pots out for a 2 to 3 light frosts each winter and not being too concerned if they are exposed to a light brief freeze of 31F or 32F in their pots.  I honestly think this will strengthen them up.  By the way, I have read of reports of a few Jamaican Talls along the Central Florida coast surviving temps in the low to mid 20'sF in the 1989 freeze there.  So, older mature healthy palms CAN survive pretty cold temps, and the Mexican Tall, which is commonly grown from Matamoros southward along the Gulf Coast of Mexico would be exposed to more continental cold on a more regular basis than peninsular Florida is, so therefore this variety must be at least somewhat more cold hardy than the Jamaican Talls are even though there is a sceptic on here who questions this!  Judging by the size of the ones at the Flamingo Motel in Brownsville, and the mature one I have seen on the north colder side of Edinburg, north of McAllen out in the country away from any heat island effect and away from any buildings to protect it, there is NO DOUBT in my mind whatsoever that the Mexican Tall IS the most cold hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere!  The ones growing at the Flamingo Motel would look twice as good and make it through cold winters even better if they were adequately fertilized and adequately watered during the hot dry months there!  If this were the case, I seriously doubt they would be even close to being defoliated at 28F!  My Green Malayan Dwarf made it through 6 freezes this last winter with 3 of those freezes in the upper 20'sF WITHOUT being defoliated, so there is NO reason at all for our sceptic posting on here for a large mature and healthy Mexican Tall to fare even better!

John

I can add my observations from this winter:

January 18th, 2018: Our airport recorded 24F according to Wunderground.com and weather.com reported a low of 25F.  I recorded 28F on both thermometers on my property, probably due to oak canopy in the back and my property is hedged by podocarpus to the north to kill the wind.  There is a property not very far down the road, but on the "cold" side of the hill that had 2 malayan dwarfs completely exposed to the advective freeze.  Winds were between 10 and 15 mph all night, and the temperature stayed below freezing for at least 10 hours.  It stands to reason that a property with no canopy would have had a temperature somewhere between the two measures of 24F and 28F. 

Regardless of the actual temperature on that grower's lot, one of the newly planted Malayans died and the other was completely defoliated but started to put out stunted fronds in April and is now putting out larger fronds that are nearing the original fond size before the freeze.  You can see a hazy photo of the recovering malay dwarf at the end of this thread: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/55422-coconuts-in-lakeland-fl/

Even if there were no difference at all in the cold hardiness of different varieties, there are reports of coconuts surviving impossibly low temperatures (19F) in Clearwater Beach and Cocoa Beach during the deep freezes in the 80s.  I count myself in the camp that believes the temperatures were measured at an airport or somewhere else with less coastal influence and the temperature was a little higher there.  That would have likely put the temperature somewhere in that 24F-28F ballpark.

This one supposedly survived low-20s in a very sheltered spot: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/54422-pre-89-coconut-satellite-beach/

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I think the Mexican Tall CERTAINLY IS more cold hardy than any other variety typically grown in the Western Hemisphere.  There is one in Ciudad Victoria, Mexico, that I have been told about by Richard Travis, a well know expert on palms in South Texas and the Rio Grande Valley, that survived the 1989 freeze, and it got REALLY cold (in the 20'sF I think) even that far south!  I wasn't referring to leaving any young or juvenile Coconut Palms out unprotected at 26F, just leaving my young ones in pots out for a 2 to 3 light frosts each winter and not being too concerned if they are exposed to a light brief freeze of 31F or 32F in their pots.  I honestly think this will strengthen them up.  By the way, I have read of reports of a few Jamaican Talls along the Central Florida coast surviving temps in the low to mid 20'sF in the 1989 freeze there.  So, older mature healthy palms CAN survive pretty cold temps, and the Mexican Tall, which is commonly grown from Matamoros southward along the Gulf Coast of Mexico would be exposed to more continental cold on a more regular basis than peninsular Florida is, so therefore this variety must be at least somewhat more cold hardy than the Jamaican Talls are even though there is a sceptic on here who questions this!  Judging by the size of the ones at the Flamingo Motel in Brownsville, and the mature one I have seen on the north colder side of Edinburg, north of McAllen out in the country away from any heat island effect and away from any buildings to protect it, there is NO DOUBT in my mind whatsoever that the Mexican Tall IS the most cold hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere!  The ones growing at the Flamingo Motel would look twice as good and make it through cold winters even better if they were adequately fertilized and adequately watered during the hot dry months there!  If this were the case, I seriously doubt they would be even close to being defoliated at 28F!  My Green Malayan Dwarf made it through 6 freezes this last winter with 3 of those freezes in the upper 20'sF WITHOUT being defoliated, so there is NO reason at all for our sceptic posting on here for a large mature and healthy Mexican Tall to fare even better!

John

John, 

Richard Travis wrote an article about the 80s freezes in southern Texas/northern Mexico (sadly unable to find the link). I recall he mentioned that coconuts were wiped out in Soto la Marina/La Pesca (on the coast just above the Tropic of Cancer) where it got down into the low 20s. I think if you were to draw a line denoting areas where the majority of coconuts survived, you would find the line also probably approximates the northern extent of long-term tropical climates (64.4F + average temperature in the coldest month) in Tamaulipas. This coincides with the vegetation shift in southern Tamaulipas, which shares many species with Veracruz (solidly tropical). Higher rainfall is also probably a factor. In conclusion, I don't think areas where coconuts are solidly long term in Tamaulipas get much colder than South Florida or other areas on the fringes of the tropics. 

Best regards, 
Jonathan 

[Really full garden]

These threads on cold hardy Cocos cycle through about every four years. I mentioned in an earlier Cocos thread that crotons are excellent indicator plants for the potential for cocos to survive. If you have crotons that have survived three winters without massive defoliation then there is a very high probability that a Coconut palm will survive as well.

[richtrav]

14 hours ago, Xenon said:

John, 

Richard Travis wrote an article about the 80s freezes in southern Texas/northern Mexico (sadly unable to find the link). I recall he mentioned that coconuts were wiped out in Soto la Marina/La Pesca (on the coast just above the Tropic of Cancer) where it got down into the low 20s. I think if you were to draw a line denoting areas where the majority of coconuts survived, you would find the line also probably approximates the northern extent of long-term tropical climates (64.4F + average temperature in the coldest month) in Tamaulipas. This coincides with the vegetation shift in southern Tamaulipas, which shares many species with Veracruz (solidly tropical). Higher rainfall is also probably a factor. In conclusion, I don't think areas where coconuts are solidly long term in Tamaulipas get much colder than South Florida or other areas on the fringes of the tropics. 

Best regards, 
Jonathan 

The article used to be on the PSST website, they took it off their site a few years ago. I didn't see any coconuts at Carboneras or La Pesca or even Tepeguaje the first time I went down there around 1990 or 1991, so I assume they were taken out by '89. They were common at La Pesca the last time I was down there about 10 years ago. Back then the farthest north you would see coconuts was at Aldama on the coastal road and Llera on the Victoria-Mante highway. The part of Tamaulipas south of the Sierra de Tamaulipas is pretty much tropical, much of it is semiarid but near the coast or the foothills of the Sierra Madre it greens up considerably.

I think the coconut John is referring to is actually north of Cd. Victoria in the small town of Jimenez. There was one tall tree along the main road and several smaller ones in town. The one along the main road was large ever since I first remember it seeing it in late 1993 or early 1994. A friend of mine recalls driving through Jimenez in the 1970s and said the residents would built small fires or put out something like smudge pots around the trees during cold winter nights. That would make sense because there are no other large coconuts around there for a long ways and freeze damage on other tender trees (Ceiba, Ficus, etc) in Jimenez was pretty extreme from '89. Somewhere I have a picture of the tallest coconut in Jimenez, I'd have to go looking for it. The only coconuts I remember in Victoria in the early '90s were small. 

[Xenon]

5 hours ago, scottgt said:

These threads on cold hardy Cocos cycle through about every four years. I mentioned in an earlier Cocos thread that crotons are excellent indicator plants for the potential for cocos to survive. If you have crotons that have survived three winters without massive defoliation then there is a very high probability that a Coconut palm will survive as well.

Check out these crotons (and royal palms):
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Brownsville-TX/pmf,pf_pt/50683776_zpid/51167_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/26.232454,-97.164116,25.825852,-97.754632_rect/10_zm/15_p/

more royals:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Brownsville-TX/pmf,pf_pt/50753461_zpid/51167_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/26.232454,-97.164116,25.825852,-97.754632_rect/10_zm/3_p/

robust Ravenea rivularis and many tall royals in the background:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Brownsville-TX/pmf,pf_pt/55571261_zpid/51167_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/26.232454,-97.164116,25.825852,-97.754632_rect/10_zm/12_p/

[Really full garden]

Jonathan, those are some fairly beefy crotons. They look like they have been planted for a few years.

[Really full garden]

2 hours ago, richtrav said:

The article used to be on the PSST website, they took it off their site a few years ago. I didn't see any coconuts at Carboneras or La Pesca or even Tepeguaje the first time I went down there around 1990 or 1991, so I assume they were taken out by '89. They were common at La Pesca the last time I was down there about 10 years ago. Back then the farthest north you would see coconuts was at Aldama on the coastal road and Llera on the Victoria-Mante highway. The part of Tamaulipas south of the Sierra de Tamaulipas is pretty much tropical, much of it is semiarid but near the coast or the foothills of the Sierra Madre it greens up considerably.

I think the coconut John is referring to is actually north of Cd. Victoria in the small town of Jimenez. There was one tall tree along the main road and several smaller ones in town. The one along the main road was large ever since I first remember it seeing it in late 1993 or early 1994. A friend of mine recalls driving through Jimenez in the 1970s and said the residents would built small fires or put out something like smudge pots around the trees during cold winter nights. That would make sense because there are no other large coconuts around there for a long ways and freeze damage on other tender trees (Ceiba, Ficus, etc) in Jimenez was pretty extreme from '89. Somewhere I have a picture of the tallest coconut in Jimenez, I'd have to go looking for it. The only coconuts I remember in Victoria in the early '90s were small. 

I drove through the Cd.Victoria area in August 89 and was amazed to see miles and miles of dead citrus groves. I do not recall any coconuts.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

20 hours ago, Xenon said:

John, 

Richard Travis wrote an article about the 80s freezes in southern Texas/northern Mexico (sadly unable to find the link). I recall he mentioned that coconuts were wiped out in Soto la Marina/La Pesca (on the coast just above the Tropic of Cancer) where it got down into the low 20s. I think if you were to draw a line denoting areas where the majority of coconuts survived, you would find the line also probably approximates the northern extent of long-term tropical climates (64.4F + average temperature in the coldest month) in Tamaulipas. This coincides with the vegetation shift in southern Tamaulipas, which shares many species with Veracruz (solidly tropical). Higher rainfall is also probably a factor. In conclusion, I don't think areas where coconuts are solidly long term in Tamaulipas get much colder than South Florida or other areas on the fringes of the tropics. 

Best regards, 
Jonathan 

Jonathan,

You may be right, but I still think that the Mexican Tall Coconut Palm is the most cold hardy variety in the Western Hemisphere, and that Tamaulipas gets chillier (even if it's not freezing weather) than South Florida and South Central Florida typically do.  This can be seen by at least one incident usually each winter in which the Rio Grande Valley only sees high temps from a couple of days to a few days straight only in the 40'sF and low 50'sF.  These temps, though moderated slightly south of the Rio Grande River would also be experienced into Tamaulipas with decreasing effects the further south you go, but cold continental air masses that come straight down from Canada DO NOT STOP at the Rio Grande River.  It is for this reason, being exposed to more frequent cold air masses than South Florida and South Central Florida, that I think tropical species of trees and plants that are typically grown in Tamaulipas, Mexico, including the Mexican Tall Coconut Palm, exhibit a higher degree of cold tolerance than similar species typically grown in South Florida and South Central Florida.  This can be seen be comments here on Palmtalk of those growing Coconut Palms in Florida who say that their palms if experiencing the conditions that the ones in the Rio Grande Valley faced this past winter, would be dead or severely injured, yet many survived such conditions in the Valley. some with very little if any injury like Roberto's neighbor's Coconut Palm that was in the ground over the last winter and suffered virtually NO INJURY whatsoever in Los Fresnos.

John

Edited September 10, 2018 by Mr. Coconut Palm

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

7 hours ago, richtrav said:

The article used to be on the PSST website, they took it off their site a few years ago. I didn't see any coconuts at Carboneras or La Pesca or even Tepeguaje the first time I went down there around 1990 or 1991, so I assume they were taken out by '89. They were common at La Pesca the last time I was down there about 10 years ago. Back then the farthest north you would see coconuts was at Aldama on the coastal road and Llera on the Victoria-Mante highway. The part of Tamaulipas south of the Sierra de Tamaulipas is pretty much tropical, much of it is semiarid but near the coast or the foothills of the Sierra Madre it greens up considerably.

I think the coconut John is referring to is actually north of Cd. Victoria in the small town of Jimenez. There was one tall tree along the main road and several smaller ones in town. The one along the main road was large ever since I first remember it seeing it in late 1993 or early 1994. A friend of mine recalls driving through Jimenez in the 1970s and said the residents would built small fires or put out something like smudge pots around the trees during cold winter nights. That would make sense because there are no other large coconuts around there for a long ways and freeze damage on other tender trees (Ceiba, Ficus, etc) in Jimenez was pretty extreme from '89. Somewhere I have a picture of the tallest coconut in Jimenez, I'd have to go looking for it. The only coconuts I remember in Victoria in the early '90s were small. 

Thanks for the explanation, Richard.

John

[veeman55]

On 8/7/2018, 9:01:19, LF-TX said:

Believe me or not, this coco has been in the ground for about two years now! My neighbor works at for Parks and Recreation at South Padre Island / Port Isabel and he’s near the beach often. He got a coconut that washed up on the beach, left it in his outdoor sink (over the winter if I’m not mistaken!) and it germinated. 

I know this is hard to believe but I’m here at my neighbors house often. It’s probably unctouched since it’s on the house’s south side. All I know is that they water it often. Other than that, it’s pretty much open to all weather. 

I think the cracks you’re seeing in the picture may be stray strips of carpet grass, but anyways you’re right. The dirt is pretty much desert-like and does crack when it’s dry. 

Coconuts dont germinate with cold temperatures...temps need to be in the 90s to sprout

[richtrav]

On 9/9/2018, 6:20:03, scottgt said:

I drove through the Cd.Victoria area in August 89 and was amazed to see miles and miles of dead citrus groves. I do not recall any coconuts.

The 89 freeze came in December and could not have caused the dead trees you saw.