USDA 9a Zone Pushing

[Surfrider14]

Hello everyone! I moved into my neighborhood (Saint Johns, Fla/just north of St Augustine, south of Jax) about a year and a half ago now, but have been visiting the area for years, as my mother & Aunt have lived here for years. Regardless, upon exploring the area, (about 15 miles inland from the Atlantic, centered between the St Johns River and the Intracoastal) I found some palms that normally could not be found in a typical Zone 9a climate. I found some established foxtails right off of the Shands bridge (more like 25 miles inland), though right near the river (as are the royals up in Jax). Also, a good-sized majesty, which I’ve seen for years now, tons in my neighborhood, especially planted in courtyards. Finally, some palms I’m not familiar with, a neighbor told me they could be beccariophoenix alfredii, but I’m not quite sure. They are newer, but were there when I moved in, so I can’t say how long they have been there, only that they took the winter unscathed. With this being said, some of my neighbors also have other zone 9b+ palms and other tropicals, such as bismarcks (15+ feet), Pink ti cordylines, Dracaena marginata, Red ensete bananas, birds of paradise and others, all at least 4-5 feet tall, none of which died back this year (only took some minor damage). My next door neighbor (another palm enthusiast) is convinced the whole neighborhood has a great microclimate, both of our thermostats read 28.9 degrees on the coldest night of the year in our 9a zone. Anyways, just thought I’d share some of my findings, I’ve always loved the concept of zone-pushing, especially if you have the right microclimate. I will upload some more pics another time in the “Other Tropicals” forum, of some of my neighbor’s gardens. FYI I am working on uploading some pics now...

Edited July 18, 2018 by Surfrider14

[Surfrider14]

https://ibb.co/eGXAYd

https://ibb.co/ftR4td

https://ibb.co/hR4w6y

These links should work.....

First are the foxtails, second is the Majesty and third are the palms I'm unfamiliar with.

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Surfrider14

[GottmitAlex]

Good luck with the zone pushing!

As I see it (California vis a vis Florida):

A Cali 10a/b is no match for a Florida 10a/b when it comes to what can grow there. (Zone pushing or not) there are exceptions though.  However a Cali 9a/b exceeds Florida's 9a/b zones. 

It seems humidity and cold weather are determining factors of whether a tropical can grow or most likely die. 

Btw, Walt is the exception to the rule. 

 

[Surfrider14]

1 hour ago, Surfrider14 said:

 

41 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

Good luck with the zone pushing!

As I see it (California vis a vis Florida):

A Cali 10a/b is no match for a Florida 10a/b when it comes to what can grow there. (Zone pushing or not) there are exceptions though.  However a Cali 9a/b exceeds Florida's 9a/b zones. 

It seems humidity and cold weather are determining factors of whether a tropical can grow or most likely die. 

Btw, Walt is the exception to the rule. 

 

Exactly. Just because Miami and most of LA are both 10b doesn’t mean they can grow the same tropicals, while both avoid the brutal yet short cold snaps seen in other zones, LA just doesn’t have enough humidity and daytime heating to sustain the tropicals found in Miami. LA is just cooler and much less humid during the daytime than Miami, too cool and dry for too long for many tropicals, except in a few microclimates.  

 

[pj_orlando_z9b]

2 hours ago, Surfrider14 said:

https://ibb.co/eGXAYd

https://ibb.co/ftR4td

https://ibb.co/hR4w6y

These links should work.....

First are the foxtails, second is the Majesty and third are the palms I'm unfamiliar with.

 

Good stuff. Your foxtail looks like mine after this winter in Orlando. The 3rd pic looks like a majesty, palmetto and mule palm to me. Looking good. 

[RedRabbit]

Welcome to the forum! As pj_orlando_z9b said, that's definitely a mule palm in the 3rd pic. It's a great option for palm enthusiasts in 9a. 

I'm surprised to hear you're 15 miles inland and it only had dropped to 29f this winter. That's warmer than most of Tampa was, I would have thought your area would have seen lows around 25-26f judging by the data I recorded.  Any idea what's attributing to the microclimate? 

[edbrown_III]

its practically Orlando along the St Johhns reiver ------   I got 26 F here and just a few miles east and north.  ---- only 3 degrees but this is    a critical 3 degrees   b etween   survival     for these palms -----  the 3rd photo it looks like a Bismarkia up against the house , a mule of some sort on the right and a Arenga engleri ----   they probably through blankets over the foxtail and  Ravenea to protect I suspect ----- they are up against the house too and probably saw a 32 F minimum.  

 

[pj_orlando_z9b]

38 minutes ago, edbrown_III said:

its practically Orlando along the St Johhns reiver ------   I got 26 F here and just a few miles east and north.  ---- only 3 degrees but this is    a critical 3 degrees   b etween   survival     for these palms -----  the 3rd photo it looks like a Bismarkia up against the house , a mule of some sort on the right and a Arenga engleri ----   they probably through blankets over the foxtail and  Ravenea to protect I suspect ----- they are up against the house too and probably saw a 32 F minimum.  

 

I missed the color earlier. Agree, Bismarkia would be more likely. Oddly trimmed or just a smaller crown. 

[Surfrider14]

8 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Welcome to the forum! As pj_orlando_z9b said, that's definitely a mule palm in the 3rd pic. It's a great option for palm enthusiasts in 9a. 

I'm surprised to hear you're 15 miles inland and it only had dropped to 29f this winter. That's warmer than most of Tampa was, I would have thought your area would have seen lows around 25-26f judging by the data I recorded.  Any idea what's attributing to the microclimate? 

Yes, I was shocked too, and most of my weather apps also recorded similar data to yours. While I can’t be sure, I can guess what could be causing this microclimate. When looking north-northwest of my neighborhood, most of the homes are sheltered by a massive row of Australian pines (which are usually not found around here, and very invasive), possibly 50 or 60 feet tall mixed in with some loblolly pines, planted to protect homes from the golf course. Behind the Australian pines is a water trap, part of the golf course around my neighborhood. Beyond that is about a quarter mile of mainly bald cypress growing in very swampy conditions, the water in that preserve usually runs about 2-3 feet deep, not that the preserve/swamp or the water trap are providing that much warmth, if any. So, I think it is both a combination of the 50-60 foot trees protecting homes from the cold northwest winds, the swampy preserve of bald cypress just beyond that, and the design of many homes so that anything planted in their front yard area is surrounded on three sides by their homes. Most houses on my street have a 10-15 foot area of garden between the garage, front door and another area of the homes that extend 15 or so feet out, so that the only side they are not protected from is the southern or southwestern side, which is no big deal. The courtyard area is not huge, but it is large enough to where neighbors have towering Norfolk Island Pines, queens, bananas, bird of paradise, etc. growing with no problem. Just a guess.

[Surfrider14]

6 hours ago, edbrown_III said:

its practically Orlando along the St Johhns reiver ------   I got 26 F here and just a few miles east and north.  ---- only 3 degrees but this is    a critical 3 degrees   b etween   survival     for these palms -----  the 3rd photo it looks like a Bismarkia up against the house , a mule of some sort on the right and a Arenga engleri ----   they probably through blankets over the foxtail and  Ravenea to protect I suspect ----- they are up against the house too and probably saw a 32 F minimum.  

 

Seems like it, especially with what some of the tropicals neighbors can grow. I ride past the foxtails on my way to work everyday, and while I don’t recall them being covered, they could have removed the protective layer before I drove to work, as the temperatures started rising and the sun came out. (This house faces East if I recall correctly.) You are definitely right about those critical few degrees, seems to make or break the survival of some palms. I am in Orlando very frequently, and was shocked when I saw the damage some foxtails near a car dealership around the Universal area took, they looked worse than the ones near me. 

[Walt]

14 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Good luck with the zone pushing!

As I see it (California vis a vis Florida):

A Cali 10a/b is no match for a Florida 10a/b when it comes to what can grow there. (Zone pushing or not) there are exceptions though.  However a Cali 9a/b exceeds Florida's 9a/b zones. 

It seems humidity and cold weather are determining factors of whether a tropical can grow or most likely die. 

Btw, Walt is the exception to the rule. 

 

Alex, I'm only an exception, mainly because I protect some palms. I used to have a co worker that retired to a water front lot on the St. John River in East Palatka, Florida (haven't heard from him in years. He may have moved or died since then).

The river is about one mile wide where he lives, and the river is on his west and north side. Most all  the coldest wind comes out of the NW, which would have to travel across the river, thus be moderated. I believe his climate is a solid 9b, bordering on zone 10a with respect to his nighttime low temperatures. But his daytime temps are maybe 8 degrees lower than mine, due to my more southern latitude, plus no river to siphon daytime heat from surrounding air. I gave my friend an Archontophoenix cunninghamia at least 10 years ago. It had no trunk at the time. The last time I saw the palm it had maybe 8 feet of trunk He told me he's never seen the palm cold/frost damaged. He planted the palm on the south side of his house beneath very high live oak canopy, and about 50 feet from the river. The palm is definitely in a microclimate.

[pj_orlando_z9b]

2 hours ago, Surfrider14 said:

I am in Orlando very frequently, and was shocked when I saw the damage some foxtails near a car dealership around the Universal area took, they looked worse than the ones near me. 

There was definitely some damage in Orlando to many z10 rated plants. We had widespread 27F to 29F across the area.  Typically there is variation due to microclimates but that is in radiational events not advective. I'm a little surprised to hear microclimates held up in Jax as they too had advective cold during that event. So that is a good sign.  I had foxtail damage but had just planted mine 8 months prior. Many also are not properly fertilized around town. Here is my neighbors 3 weeks after the freeze. It took minimal damage. And there are lots of others like this one too. So maturity, health, and siting play a key role in long term survival wherever they grow. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by pj_orlando_z9b

[Surfrider14]

On 7/19/2018, 10:36:09, pj_orlando_z9b said:

There was definitely some damage in Orlando to many z10 rated plants. We had widespread 27F to 29F across the area.  Typically there is variation due to microclimates but that is in radiational events not advective. I'm a little surprised to hear microclimates held up in Jax as they too had advective cold during that event. So that is a good sign.  I had foxtail damage but had just planted mine 8 months prior. Many also are not properly fertilized around town. Here is my neighbors 3 weeks after the freeze. It took minimal damage. And there are lots of others like this one too. So maturity, health, and siting play a key role in long term survival wherever they grow. 

I was surprised that the microclimates held up as well! Those foxtails look great, barely damaged. Age and maturity play a major role for sure, the foxtails I had seen were outside of a newly opened dealership (Lexus?) right off of I-4 in the Universal area, they couldn’t  have been there more than 6 or so months,  4 looked to be a total loss and the other two were brutally damaged, but probably came back. Then again, that was also a very open area, not many buildings nearby, and very exposed to the northwest winds. An unfavorable microclimate paired with their age and maturity definitely proved to be a fatal combination for those foxtails. Closer to the building, all Adonidia Merrellii survived, some with very little damage. Crazy how microclimates work.

[metalfan]

I used to live in Culver City CA which is basically LA. My job in the barrio in East LA was only 16 miles from my house. I could grow a lot of things there out in the yard I can't grow reliably here in zone 9A Florida without winter protection. I have a friend who still lives there. He's not into palms, but we were both heavily into orchids, bromeliads and broadleaf tropicals...heliconias, etlingera gingers, unusual large growing calathea....while I can plant a single rhizome start of a heliconia in my greenhouse (not my yard) here and pretty reliably get blooms in maybe 18 months-2 years depending on species/cultivar, it took one of his heliconia 10 years to bloom in his yard. While it took my two Strongolydon macrobotrys (Green Jade Vines) 5 years to become mature enough to bloom in the greenhouse, where temps are kept at 50F during the brief winters here, it has taken his vine 15 years to bloom in his yard. Main difference? IMO definite lack of humidity in CA, as well as reliable rain, and in Culver City, which is only 6 miles away from the ocean, daytime temps rarely got over 80 and almost every night even in summer was in the 45- 50 range. In 7 years I lived there it only froze ONE TIME. We get at least one freeze here every winter. But the humidity here is 90% most of the time, its hotter than hell and it rains all the time. Its just different in ways that are difficult to appreciate if you haven't tried to garden in both places.

[Palmə häl′ik]

I too push the zone.

Heres my only casualty of this winter coming back!   I really didnt think itd make it but it did...

[Insomniac411]

On 7/18/2018, 5:41:28, Surfrider14 said:

Hello everyone! I moved into my neighborhood (Saint Johns, Fla/just north of St Augustine, south of Jax) about a year and a half ago now, but have been visiting the area for years, as my mother & Aunt have lived here for years. Regardless, upon exploring the area, (about 15 miles inland from the Atlantic, centered between the St Johns River and the Intracoastal) I found some palms that normally could not be found in a typical Zone 9a climate. I found some established foxtails right off of the Shands bridge (more like 25 miles inland), though right near the river (as are the royals up in Jax). Also, a good-sized majesty, which I’ve seen for years now, tons in my neighborhood, especially planted in courtyards. Finally, some palms I’m not familiar with, a neighbor told me they could be beccariophoenix alfredii, but I’m not quite sure. They are newer, but were there when I moved in, so I can’t say how long they have been there, only that they took the winter unscathed. With this being said, some of my neighbors also have other zone 9b+ palms and other tropicals, such as bismarcks (15+ feet), Pink ti cordylines, Dracaena marginata, Red ensete bananas, birds of paradise and others, all at least 4-5 feet tall, none of which died back this year (only took some minor damage). My next door neighbor (another palm enthusiast) is convinced the whole neighborhood has a great microclimate, both of our thermostats read 28.9 degrees on the coldest night of the year in our 9a zone. Anyways, just thought I’d share some of my findings, I’ve always loved the concept of zone-pushing, especially if you have the right microclimate. I will upload some more pics another time in the “Other Tropicals” forum, of some of my neighbor’s gardens. FYI I am working on uploading some pics now...

Hello there . Belated welcome to st.johns county. I'm in Nocatee. Also an enthusiast that has experimented with many different varieties of palms over the last 5 years here. There are some anomalies here in Jax, but for the most part you won't have a majesty or foxtail make it too long. I have a small foxtail I wrap up in the cold and its fares well, but if I lose it I appreciate it for what it is and when it's gone, I'm ready to accept it. If you want a truly amazing tree for our area that will stand out, yes, the b.alfredii is the way to go. In the chilly temps mine suffered a little but not to the point of death. If you want some proven statement palms that are out of the ordinary, my top picks are mule palms, sugar palms (arenga englari), bizmarks, and b.afredii. you'll have to do a good bit of searching for sugar and b.alfredii palms, or pay a hefty price local. Good luck.

[Lou-StAugFL]

I have lived in my current house in St. Augustine South for 37 years and I agree with your list of palms.  So my palms have been through the good and the bad winters. Might add rhapis too.  Actually I also have some queen palms that are probably 60 feet tall. They grow above my large live oak canopy too.  I have been pleasantly surprised with the hardiness of b. alfredii as well.

[Bazza]

Third pic (left to right):

Dwarf Sugar, Bismarck, Mule

My advice is to plant as early in the season as possible (March through May ideally), use smaller but very healthy examples, protect the heart during freeze events, apply fungicides afterwards as needed, and last but not least...know that you may lose anything not considered hardy.

[Surfrider14]

On 8/12/2018, 8:59:29, Insomniac411 said:

Hello there . Belated welcome to st.johns county. I'm in Nocatee. Also an enthusiast that has experimented with many different varieties of palms over the last 5 years here. There are some anomalies here in Jax, but for the most part you won't have a majesty or foxtail make it too long. I have a small foxtail I wrap up in the cold and its fares well, but if I lose it I appreciate it for what it is and when it's gone, I'm ready to accept it. If you want a truly amazing tree for our area that will stand out, yes, the b.alfredii is the way to go. In the chilly temps mine suffered a little but not to the point of death. If you want some proven statement palms that are out of the ordinary, my top picks are mule palms, sugar palms (arenga englari), bizmarks, and b.afredii. you'll have to do a good bit of searching for sugar and b.alfredii palms, or pay a hefty price local. Good luck.

I looked at many homes in Nocatee. Great area.  I love b. Alfredii, such a tropical look. Thanks for the advice, I plan to take advantage of the sheltered courtyard that my home and most homes on my block have. I like the look of sugar palms, and especially Acoelorrhaphe wrightii, at least 3 homes on my block have some sizable ones, 10+ feet. 2 homes in my neighborhood have bismarcks, and they fared great this winter. Also, tons planted off 210 at the new beachwalk community. Mule palms really remind me of cocos, and I can’t find a decently priced one at any local nurseries. 

[Surfrider14]

2 hours ago, Lou-StAugFL said:

I have lived in my current house in St. Augustine South for 37 years and I agree with your list of palms.  So my palms have been through the good and the bad winters. Might add rhapis too.  Actually I also have some queen palms that are probably 60 feet tall. They grow above my large live oak canopy too.  I have been pleasantly surprised with the hardiness of b. alfredii as well.

Rapis excelsa is such a great palm. The only palm that came with my home. They are planted along a 20 ft perimeter behind my pool, in dappled shade, 10 or so feet tall, took no damage this winter. They look great and they are better than any privacy shrub. Been there since the home was built, so they took on every winter for the last 8 years. Do you have any idea where I can find a decently priced beccarriophoenix alfredii in the St Aug./Jax/N.E. FL area? Thanks!

[Lou-StAugFL]

No I actually purchased mine from a mail order place in Texas that doesn't exist anymore as seedlings.