Syagrus weddelliana or another species/hybrid?

[abdalav]

Hello, everyone. I'm a journalist from Brazil and I started to cultivate palms recently. I bought this palm in a shop here in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I'd like to identify it correctly. Is it a Syagrus weddelliana,another species, a hybrid?

It's about 80 cm tall. Its largest leaves have 58 cm rachis and about 40-45 leaflets on each side. 

 

[Alberto]

The leaflets are wider then I would expect from a S. weddeliana. It looks somewhat like the hybrid weddel. x hoehnei I have, but probably its more likely to be a variation of a pure weddelianum.

[Pal Meir]

As I already wrote in the PM to you, it looks to me like a very nicely grown Syagrus weddelliana. It is a little bit more compact than mine, because my palms are mostly growing indoors so that they are more stretched. The only other palm species which is very similar looking is Syagrus insignis, but your palm is too tender for that genus. And there is no reason why it should be a hybrid. All features you mentioned are typical to S weddelliana.

[abdalav]

2 minutes ago, Alberto said:

The leaflets are broader then I would expect from a S. weddeliana. It looks somewhay like the hybrid weddel. x hoehnei I have, but probably its more likely to be a variation of a pure weddelianum.

Thanks, Alberto. Do you have pics of your weddel. x hoehnei hybrid?

[abdalav]

6 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

As I already wrote in the PM to you, it looks to me like a very nicely grown Syagrus weddelliana. It is a little bit more compact than mine, because my palms are mostly growing indoors so that they are more stretched. The only other palm species which is very similar looking is Syagrus insignis, but your palm is too tender for that genus. And there is no reason why it should be a hybrid. All features you mentioned are typical to S weddelliana.

Thanks, Pal. Alberto mentioned that the leaflets are broader than the regular weddeliana. The middle series leaflets are about 0.6-1.0 cm. I don't know if it could indicate a hybridization.

Edited August 1, 2018 by abdalav

[Pal Meir]

57 minutes ago, abdalav said:

Thanks, Pal. Alberto mentioned that the leaflets are broader than the regular weddeliana. The middle series leaflets are about 0.6-1.0 cm. I don't know if it could indicate a hybridization.

That is absolutely normal. I have placed one of my S weddelliana (N°1303) since last year on my balcony, so that it got exposed also to direct sun and could grow more compact. All middle series leaflets are 1 cm broad. I’ll pos a photo tomorrow; now it is dark here, short after midnight.

[Pal Meir]

Here a middle leaflet of N°1303; I’ll post tomorrow more photos of that palm.

[abdalav]

Thanks, Pal! So my plant is probably a pure S. weddelliana. I look forward to seeing more pics of your weddelliana!

[Pal Meir]

9 minutes ago, abdalav said:

Thanks, Pal! So my plant is probably a pure S. weddelliana. I look forward to seeing more pics of your weddelliana!

Yes, it is a typical well grown S weddelliana. 

But as promised I post here a couple of pics which show other shade grown S weddelliana for comparison. At first only the middle leaflets of N°1301 and N°1302; the measures are:

N°1301: 8 mm / 22 cm / 90 cm Rachis / 50+ leaflets on both sides

N°1302: 7 mm / 20 cm / 80 cm Rachis / 50+ leaflets obs

N°1303: 10 mm / 25 cm / 90 cm Rachis / 50+ leaflets obs

 

[abdalav]

And Alberto, I've just seen your post about the hybrid S. weddelliana x S. hoehnei. In the overall aspect your hybrid really looks like a pure weddelliana, but we can see the differences just analyzing the leaflets in detail. 

Hybrid's leaflet has an intermediate width between weddel's and hoehnei's. Its middle leaflet probably measures around 1.0-1.6 cm, as weddelianna's width is around 0.4-1.2 cm and hoehnei's is 1.5-2.0 cm (I've also looked for Noblick's descriptions of the pure species).

Furthermore, hybrid leaflet shape is much more linear than lanceolate, while weddelliana tends to be more lanceolate.

One more detail I noticed is that hybrid's midrib seems more yellowish, tending to look more like hoehnei's than weddelliana's (that's is greener).

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by abdalav

[abdalav]

8 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

Yes, it is a typical well grown S weddelliana. 

But as promised I post here a couple of pics which show other shade grown S weddelliana for comparison. At first only the middle leaflets of N°1301 and N°1302; the measures are:

N°1301: 8 mm / 22 cm / 90 cm Rachis / 50+ leaflets on both sides

N°1302: 7 mm / 20 cm / 80 cm Rachis / 50+ leaflets obs

N°1303: 10 mm / 25 cm / 90 cm Rachis / 50+ leaflets obs

 

Awesome, is the rachis measured from the first leaflet to the tip or from the stem to the tip? Because my rachis (measured from the first leaflet) seems a bit shorter (just 58 cm).

[Pal Meir]

2 minutes ago, abdalav said:

Awesome, is the rachis measured from the first leaflet to the tip or from the stem to the tip? Because my rachis (measured from the first leaflet) seems a bit shorter (just 58 cm).

It is the rachis without the petiole and first leaflet. — Here the data of all three palms germinated on the same day; the first photo shows the three in Ø14.8 cm H17.4 cm pots when they were still grown together on the same place near a SW window.

N°1301: stembase 47 mm / height (without pot) 170 cm / grown at a SW window with shaded sunlight

N°1302: stembase 32 mm / height (wp) 130 cm / grown in the shade of N°1301

N°1303: stembase 42 mm / height (wp) 140 cm / grown on balcony since March 2017 with 4-8 hours sun at temps from 42°C down to ±0°C.

And here a close up of N°1303:

[abdalav]

I see, your rachis are really long. My plant's is rather compact in comparison with yours. That's one characteristic that doesn't fit Noblick's description, as he writes that weddelliana's rachis are longer than 65 cm... My largest leaves are about 55-58 cm...

[Pal Meir]

43 minutes ago, abdalav said:

I see, your rachis are really long. My plant's is rather compact in comparison with yours. That's one characteristic that doesn't fit Noblick's description, as he writes that weddelliana's rachis are longer than 65 cm... My largest leaves are about 55-58 cm...

Noblick’s data are mostly true for palms growing in their shady habitats in Serra dos Órgãos and Serra da Estrela, I guess – Following some data of two other S weddelliana:

N°1308 (cf. »The Lyto which wouldn’t grow bigger«): 7 mm / 16 cm / 66 cm Rachis / 50- leaflets on both sides / 37 mm trunk base / 110 cm height (without pot)

N°1306c (cf. »Lyto wedd as bonsai«): 5 mm / 12 cm / 43 cm Rachis / 35 leaflets obs / 16 mm stem base / 43 cm height (wp)

[abdalav]

Great, many thanks. Number 1308 is still bigger than mine, but still it's the most similar (regarding measures) of them all...

[Pal Meir]

I have some questions to your palm, too: (1) How long do you own it? (2) Where did you buy it? (3) What is the size of the pot?

Another thing regarding the infos on S weddelliana: According to Noblick or Lorenzi it grows »from 50–800 m elevation«. I found on Google Earth palms growing near Petrópolis at over 900 m altitude (and perhaps also at Terésopolis at over 1000 m*).

(Similar in case of S insignis: »… at elevations of 1000–1800 m«, but I found several photos near Véu de Noiva/ES at 500 m altitude. And even in Noblick 2017, p. 118 are altitudes of 560 m and 600 m recorded.)

*) This could be the cause why seeds of L weddellianum were sold as L insigne in 2013/14 by RPS.

[abdalav]

2 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

I have some questions to your palm, too: (1) How long do you own it? (2) Where did you buy it? (3) What is the size of the pot?

Another thing regarding the infos on S weddelliana: According to Noblick or Lorenzi it grows »from 50–800 m elevation«. I found on Google Earth palms growing near Petrópolis at over 900 m altitude (and perhaps also at Terésopolis at over 1000 m*).

(Similar in case of S insignis: »… at elevations of 1000–1800 m«, but I found several photos near Véu de Noiva/ES at 500 m altitude. And even in Noblick 2017, p. 118 are altitudes of 560 m and 600 m recorded.)

*) This could be the cause why seeds of L weddellianum were sold as L insigne in 2013/14 by RPS.

I've just bought it, Paul. I don't know how old is it or where has it been grown. I bought it in a shop that has its own greenhouse, but they don't cultivate it. They buy it from a producer about whom I have no information.

I live in Rio de Janeiro, just 60 km from Petrópolis, but the climate of these cities couldn't be more different. Rio is tropical hot. Petrópolis/Teresópolis are kind of temperate. The pot is small (I think 20 cm of height and probably 20-25 cm of diametre). Rio is altitude 0. As you said, Petrópolis is located in a mountain range.

My plant is about 80 cm from the pot. Is the size of the rachis is related to the size of the plant? That's why, maybe the rachis is small?

[abdalav]

Oh, and 80 cm is the size of the plant, I'll have to measure the stem, but it seems my stem has the same size as your larger plants, the difference is that my leaves grow more horizontally and yours grow more vertically.

[Pal Meir]

20 minutes ago, abdalav said:

I've just bought it, Paul. I don't know how old is it or where has it been grown. I bought it in a shop that has its own greenhouse, but they don't cultivate it. They buy it from a producer about whom I have no information.

I live in Rio de Janeiro, just 60 km from Petrópolis, but the climate of these cities couldn't be more different. Rio is tropical hot. Petrópolis/Teresópolis are kind of temperate. The pot is small (I think 20 cm of height and probably 20-25 cm of diametre). Rio is altitude 0. As you said, Petrópolis is located in a mountain range.

My plant is about 80 cm from the pot. Is the size of the rachis is related to the size of the plant? That's why, maybe the rachis is small?

You are lucky, you can visit the palm in its habitat, below a pic taken by Marcos L. Britto in 2012 at 900+m elevation: On the left margin you can see an adult S weddelliana with long petioles, but short rachis:

 

[abdalav]

Just now, Pal Meir said:

You are lucky, you can visit the palm in its habitat, below a pic taken by Marcos L. Britto in 2012 at 900+m elevation: On the left margin you can see an adult S weddelliana with long petioles, but short rachis:

 

Awesome, thanks for the pics. I understand your point. Descriptions are based on a restricted number of specimens (sometimes just one). 

But my petiole isn't large as you can see in the pictures. It's probably a variation of the type specimen, as Alberto has said earlier...

 

 

[Pal Meir]

22 minutes ago, abdalav said:

Oh, and 80 cm is the size of the plant, I'll have to measure the stem, but it seems my stem has the same size as your larger plants, the difference is that my leaves grow more horizontally and yours grow more vertically.

Your palm has already grown much more leaves than mine: N°1301, 03, and 08 are just pushing their 25th leaf … So they are beginning to grow a real trunk. When grown in shade the leaves of young palms try to grow as high as possible. N°1308 was grown on a window sill so that it is a little bit more compact.

[abdalav]

Thanks for the insights! That's why I wanted your opinion in the first place! 

[Pal Meir]

21 minutes ago, abdalav said:

Awesome, thanks for the pics. I understand your point. Descriptions are based on a restricted number of specimens (sometimes just one). 

But my petiole isn't large as you can see in the pictures. It's probably a variation of the type specimen, as Alberto has said earlier...

The petioles of your palms are shorter because it was grown in a more sunny place. The petioles of my N°1303 (grown on balcony) and N°1308 (grown on window sill) are shorter, too.

[abdalav]

My weddelliana from another angle.

[Pal Meir]

Very nice! It is a 100% typical S weddelliana, no hybrid at all. And it has already developed a real trunk.

[Pal Meir]

Your palm reminds me of this little one, growing in Serra da Estrela (©Marcos L. Britto 2012):

[abdalav]

Yes, these specimens seem to have smaller rachis...

Have you seem the photos of Alberto's hybrids? They really resemble weddelliana, although their leaves are different.

[Pal Meir]

11 hours ago, abdalav said:

Yes, these specimens seem to have smaller rachis...

Have you seem the photos of Alberto's hybrids? They really resemble weddelliana, although their leaves are different.

The leaf #19 (out of 26) of the window sill grown palm N°1308 (1st pic) has 44 leaflets on both sides and the rachis is only 59 cm long. All S weddelliana with leaves having only max. 45 leaflets obs have a shorter rachis. If they were grown more sun protected than yours they produce a longer petiole (2nd pic, ©Horto das Palmeiras / Rio de Janeiro). The numbers in Noblick 2017 (3rd pic) should be corrected, at least for all palms which have 45 to 60 leaflets obs. — And to your other question: Yes I know Alberto’s thread, but (1) I would expect for an adult hybrid more leaflets (S hoehnei has up to 60 obs) and (2) why should they have in RJ hybrids with S hoehnei, being the home of S weddelliana?

Noblick 2017, p. 216:

[Pal Meir]

The picture of a leaf with ±50 leaflets on both sides in Drude 1881 (http://florabrasiliensis.cria.org.br/) is typical and similar to the blades of most of my S weddelliana. Only the short rachis differs from mine. 

[abdalav]

Great, Pal. Number 1308's dimensions are similar to my palm (45 leaflets and 58 cm). 

Horto das Palmeiras's weddelliana is kind of ugly. And it costs US$65. I bought my palm for US$ 19 (and it's much prettier).

And your view on hybridization makes sense. There's no reason the producers would hybridize weddell witg hoehnei (a species that's even more rare than weddelliana) in Rio. Unless, they bought one of Alberto's plants and multiplied it .

But it's importante to talk to you because you have lots of weddellianas and they are different from each other. 

 

[Alberto]

Abaxial side of the leaflets of (from bottom  to upper side of pic): 

1- S. insigne ES(older) and (from all the species,in this the two blades of the leaflet form an evident angle with the central nerve) All the leaflets of the other species are more flat)

2- S. hoehnei (old fruiting palms)

3- S. weddeliana (2 to 3 meters high fruiting palms, smaller leaflet from young palm)

4- S. weddeliana x S. hoehnei (young plants)

[Alberto]

From above

[Alberto]

One of my S. weddel. x  S. hoehnei

[abdalav]

Your hybrid looks like a regular weddelliana... Did tou trade some of them with someone? Did they grow seeds?

[Alberto]

The only noticeable differences are that the leaflets on this young palms  are bigger and wider then the leaflets of old, 3 m high, S.weddeliana 

[abdalav]

I've noticed the midrib is more yellowish and the leaflets are more linear than lanceolate.

 

Did you manage to reproduce the hybrids? How old are they?

[Alberto]

Yes, there are other subtle differences. No, they are to young to flower. I only sent two seedlings to Verena in Germany

[abdalav]

Great. And what's your verdict about my plant?

Edited August 3, 2018 by abdalav

[Alberto]

In my eyes not the typical look. I think it's a weddeliana with wide leaflets....

[abdalav]

Not a hybrid though...

Edited August 3, 2018 by abdalav