Suggestions for a small(er) diameter pinnate palm for FL cold 9b?

[Merlyn]

I have a two spots at the corner of the front walkway that I'm trying to fill, and so far haven't been happy with the results.  I was pretty happy with the young pygmy date doubles in the below photo, and then my neighbor gave me three mature 8' tall doubles and triples.  You can see part of one on the left side of the below photo.  So now I'm looking to replace the pygmy doubles with something bigger and pinnate.  Off to the left of the photo I have a 3' OA silver Bismarck, and the Sylvester is a new planting.  Behind the Sylvester is an Adonidia triple that probably won't survive tomorrow's cold front, and off to the right are a couple of 10' OA Livistona Chinensis. For a size reference the walkway is 11' wide at the end.  I wouldn't mind covering up part of the walkway with fronds, but I wouldn't want to cover up the whole thing or make it too difficult or annoying to walk out the front door!  I might extend the right side of the flower bed over to go around the Sylvester, but I haven't decided yet.

This location gets full sun from about 10-4pm all year.  I'm not fixated on keeping something alive in this spot in the worst winters (25F and sometimes lower) but it would be nice to have it survive a "normal" winter where we have an occasional light freeze.  This spot has direct NW wind exposure and no canopy, so there is really no protection.

I've decided that I want something bigger, but not huge.  I could easily go up to around 8 feet diameter, though I'd definitely have to move that a bit away from the walkway and driveway.  I'm envisioning something pinnate and recurving, sort of like a bottle palm.  I have a couple of young Chambeyronia Macrocarpa that I could put there, or pick up a pair of dwarf Green Maypan coconuts.  All three of those are in the "might survive an easy winter" category, but the coconut and flamethrowers would eventually get way too big for the spot...if they lived long enough!  Others I've thought about are the Dypsis Pembana (small enough to stay there), Ptychosperma Macarthurii and Dictyosperma Album/Rubrum (both eventually way too big).  My wife *really* likes coconuts.  I might have to plant a couple there, even if they end up being annuals.

Throw out some suggestions!  I'm having writer's...er...I mean palm block!   

[ruskinPalms]

Maybe Pseudophoenix sargentii? They are supposedly somewhat cold hardy and don’t grow so fast making them easy to protect during the inevitable cold spells.

[Merlyn]

That's a good one, and wouldn't be too expensive for a pair at 2' tall.  I had sort of written off the Sargentii because they are marginal here, slow growing and expensive.  But in this case that might be fine.

Another I forgot about is the Pinanga Coronata (either form) which has the advantage (like Dypsis Pembana) of being able to regrow from the roots after a severe winter.

[kinzyjr]

@Merlyn2220

You have quite a few options.  Most of the butia species are bulletproof, but probably more common than you desire.  I like @ruskinPalms suggestion for the pseudophoenix.  I'm germinating some of those for myself at this point.  Arenga micrantha would be an option, but I'm not sure they would like the full sun here.  Archontophoenix cunninghamiana/purpea/tuckeri/alexandrae depending on whether you want to go with a few extra degrees of hardiness or looks.  I prefer the alexandrae even though I already had one take a dive last year.  Without canopy, attempting howea is probably out.  There are tons more, but just my thoughts of potential palms for some curb appeal. 

You have a really nice place by the way.  The curved lines in the planting beds and walkways do magic for the entrance.

[Estlander]

1 hour ago, Merlyn2220 said:

Behind the Sylvester is an Adonidia triple that probably won't survive tomorrow's cold front

Orlando is forecast to go down to only 40 F tomorrow night. I have a potted triple Adonidia that I’ve left outside with 40F a few times this winter and it looks spotless. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Estlander

[PalmTreeDude]

Butia archeri? I have no clue where you would find any of these or how hardy they are, but they are a small Butia. Look on Palmpedias Butia page and there are lots of smaller ones you can find. 

[kinzyjr]

30 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Orlando is forecast to go down to only 40 F tomorrow night. I have a potted triple Adonidia that I’ve left outside with 40F a few times this winter and it looks spotless. 

I have eight of these coming up from seed at this point.  It will be interesting to see how long they are able to handle it outdoors once they are of sufficient size.

[Merlyn]

I really like the curves too.  They are easy to build and easy to fix when the septic guys come and dig half of it up!  

The Archontophoenix Alexandrae or Cunninghamiana have been on my short list of palms too, and would be faster and cheaper than a Sargentii. 

I already have several Butia in the ground, and I actually have two small ones in 3g that are just becoming recurved.  I'm not sure that the ultimately massive trunk would look right there, but they are really tough and reasonably easy to dig up and move later.  I haven't heard of the archeri before, I'll have to look into that!

If the Arenga Micrantha wouldn't handle the sun, the Engleri or Tremula would.  That's a possibility if I cut it back from becoming a 10+ trunk cluster!

My Adonidia triple already has a few burned fronds, and it only got down into the mid 30s in December.  We'll see what happens, but I wouldn't be surprised to see 35 here tomorrow night.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Merlyn2220

[Eric in Orlando]

First, what part of Orlando are you in? That can make a big difference.

[Merlyn]

I'm just West of Sanford, enough to be out of the "urban heat jungle."  Ultimate survivability on super cold nights isn't 100% necessary, I guess I could go one of two ways with this:

• Something cold-tender, fast growing and cheap/easy to replace if we hit 25F.  The downside is that some palms (coconut, bottle) might look really bad for months after an "average" 30F winter.  I think I'd ultimately be unhappy with that choice, but at least it would give me a chance to try more new palms!  
• Something hardy but slow growing and relatively expensive like the Pseudophoenix Sargentii that would easily survive a typical 30F winter with little or no damage.

 

[NatureGirl]

Syagrus schizophylla are good hardy replacements for P. robellini, also Allagoptera arenaria, Arenga engleri. Taller palms, maybe these are worth a try not sure how cold hardy they are in Orlando.  Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, Dypsis pembana, Ptychosperma elegans? Eric from Leu is more familiar with what pinnate palms you could grow.

[Eric in Orlando]

Yes, that is a fairly cold area. It can border on zone 9a. Anything zone 10 I would defintely rule out unless you had good evergreen tree canopy.  Heres some ideas;

Allagoptera arenaria

Beccariophoenix alfredii- your best choice for a coconut look

Arenga engleri-while its is a young specimen, maintain just one main stem and 2-3 suckers

Livistona decora- even though it is a palmate palm the deeply divided leaves have a graceful look

Phoenix loureiroi- great small scaled cold hardy palms, most in cultivation are single trunk specimens

Phoenix reclinata- just like Arenga engleri, get young specimens and keep most of the suckers removed to maintain a small clump

Phoenix rupicola- hardiness similar to P. roebelenii

X Butyagrus- Mule Palm

[RedRabbit]

Great suggestions so far! I’d like to add Ravenea glauca if you can find it. 

Also, I like the strategy of growing a clumping palm that will grow back from the roots when you enevitably get a bad freeze every 10 years or so. Areca triandra and Ptchosperma mccarthurii might be good candidates. 

[oliver]

A little bit bigger, but maybe Kentiopsis oliviformis? I am officially 9B and my K.o's do very well. Might encroach a bit on your walkway until they are tall enough.

[oliver]

I don't care much for Phoenix roebelenii. They tend to lean over when they get tall, are spiny, and seem to attract alot of nasty bugs.

[Merlyn]

I probably should have mentioned, I'm already overplanted on Phoenix with 13 in the ground.  In the front yard there's a small Canary, the Sylvester and 8' Pygmy double in the photo, another 3' tall Pygmy triple, and two fast growing hybrids that look sorta like a Reclinata/Pusilla combo.  I'm trimming those hybrids like you described, keeping them to 2 or 3 main trunks and few suckers.

The Beccariophoenix Alfredii are awesome, I planted 5 of them last summer and they are happily growing at about 6-7' tall!  But they'll probably survive long term here and get utterly monstrously huge!  I have one just outside my computer room window, so I can look at it all the time.  

Areca Triandra is a great idea, I had forgotten about that one.  It makes a good cluster and interesting drooping leaves, and relatively small overall diameter.  That's probably a good choice in the clustering types along with Dypsis Pembana and Ptychosperma Macarthurii or Elegans.

There are two 8' OA Majesty palms in the front yard, I've been planning on (eventually) replacing them with Kentiopsis Oliviformis after a cold front kills them.  How big are the KOs diameter-wise when they are young?

[PalmatierMeg]

Arecas are zone 10 palms. No A. trianda can survive cold 9b/a without protection and supplemental heat. My first thoughts were a mule and/or Kentiopsis oliviformis. Mules are definitely tough enough but I'm not sure about K.o. in cold 9b. Otherwise, Kentiopsis is a great looking palm that doesn't get massive. My two trunking ones are maybe 10-12" diameter. I recommend mules on the assumption that your area doesn't suffer from fusiarum wilt that kills queens, mules & Washies.

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

There are two 8' OA Majesty palms in the front yard, I've been planning on (eventually) replacing them with Kentiopsis Oliviformis after a cold front kills them.  How big are the KOs diameter-wise when they are young?

I have a feeling the Majesty palms are more hardy than K. oliviformis. They will defoliate, but the bud is easily hardy into the low 20s. 

Dypsis decaryi is reasonably hardy (much more so than coconuts) and has a nice form. Should be easily available too. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Xenon

[Xenon]

4 hours ago, oliver said:

A little bit bigger, but maybe Kentiopsis oliviformis? I am officially 9B and my K.o's do very well. Might encroach a bit on your walkway until they are tall enough.

You've been "officially" 10a for a while per the 2012 USDA map (would love to see some pics ). Cheers! 

[Merlyn]

My reading on the K.O. vs Majesty is inconclusive.  The KO apparently were undamaged during the 2009-2010 freeze at Leu Gardens, and take about 30% damage around 27F.  Majesties seem to be variable but take severe damage around 27F, even though they might survive defoliation at 23F.  Some in FL have died from exposure to random temperatures in the 23-27F range.  So I guess it's hard to judge.  One thing I do know is that Majesties don't like full noon sun in the middle of summer.  If the KO is okay with full sun then that might be a good choice.

There's a small Dypsis Decaryi in the backyard, I hadn't considered one for that spot!  They do like full sun, and I could point the "triangle" away from the driveway so there's no problem driving around the circle.  Hmmmm.....

I have planted a few queens for shade on the West side, but there is Fusarium in the area.  I wouldn't have planted those except that they were only $45ea for 12-15' OA palms and I needed some quick shade.    So I've sort of ruled out most hybrids with queens.  The mules are interesting but expensive for something that might croak without warning.  I guess I'm more a fan of the arching rachis than I am of the drooping leaflets.

[Merlyn]

I looked up the Ptychosperma Elegans and it looks pretty cool as a youngster!  And it's relatively cheap at $20-30 each wholesale for 3-7G.  

 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Merlyn2220

[RedRabbit]

1 hour ago, Merlyn2220 said:

My reading on the K.O. vs Majesty is inconclusive.  The KO apparently were undamaged during the 2009-2010 freeze at Leu Gardens, and take about 30% damage around 27F.  Majesties seem to be variable but take severe damage around 27F, even though they might survive defoliation at 23F.  Some in FL have died from exposure to random temperatures in the 23-27F range.  So I guess it's hard to judge.  One thing I do know is that Majesties don't like full noon sun in the middle of summer.  If the KO is okay with full sun then that might be a good choice.

Between a majesty and KO for hardiness, my money would be on the majesty. There are some mature ones even in the colder northern suburbs of Tampa. The problem with them is nutrients and getting enough water. I suggest R glauca instead, I understand they’ve got about the same cold tolerance without the nutritional issues. Plus, it is a better looking palm imo.

55 minutes ago, Merlyn2220 said:

I looked up the Ptychosperma Elegans and it looks pretty cool as a youngster!  And it's relatively cheap at $20-30 each wholesale for 3-7G. 

P elegans is really more of a 10a palm. Mine took a good amount of damage last year from 28f even with some protection. It wouldn’t hurt to try it, but it definitely is less hardy than b alfredii, KOs, a cunninghamiana, etc.

[Merlyn]

17 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

P elegans is really more of a 10a palm. Mine took a good amount of damage last year from 28f even with some protection. It wouldn’t hurt to try it, but it definitely is less hardy than b alfredii, KOs, a cunninghamiana, etc.

That might explain why I bought P Macarthurii seedlings a while back instead of Elegans.  Neither are particularly frost-proof but the Macarthurii may grow back from the roots.

I guess I like the more vertically held rachis on the Rivularis and Hildebrandtii compared to the Glauca.  Unfortunately I don't think any of the Ravenea would be happy with full blazing sun all day.

[RedRabbit]

8 minutes ago, Merlyn2220 said:

That might explain why I bought P Macarthurii seedlings a while back instead of Elegans.  Neither are particularly frost-proof but the Macarthurii may grow back from the roots.

I guess I like the more vertically held rachis on the Rivularis and Hildebrandtii compared to the Glauca.  Unfortunately I don't think any of the Ravenea would be happy with full blazing sun all day.

P maccarthurii is underrated for cold tolerance. Mine had no damage last year while my P elegans had 60% burn iirc. I think people in Central Florida need to be experimenting with it more. The only downside is it is pretty slow.

[Merlyn]

That's really useful to know, I've read that the Macarthurii is a fast grower in the tropics and has severe damage by about 28F.

So far there are some great ideas that I hadn't considered before.  Keep throwing them out there!   

Clustering palms: Dypsis Pembana, Arenga Engleri/Tremula, Pinanga Coronata, Ptychosperma Macarthurii

Solitary palms hardy for mild winters: Kentiopsis Oliviformis, Chambeyronia Macrocarpa, Archontophoenix (several), Dictyosperma Album, Hyophorbe Verschaffeltii

Solitary palms not cold hardy: Cocos Nucifera (several types), Hyophorbe Lagenicaulis

[jreich85]

I'm in the same boat, so have been thinking about the same topic recently. My votes (which honestly change quote often) are for Dypsis pembana, Dictyosperma album, Hyophorbe verschaffeltii, or the majesty. I have germinated D. Pembana and D. Album and they both survived the nasty freeze last January  (26 degrees F) and are looking promising. I love the Arenga engleri, but looking at some of the ones on my street, they get surprisingly big after a few years and might dominate your spot too much. They are pretty cold hardy though, untouched by that 26 degree freeze last year. I had an unprotected majesty planted at my old house (NW side of house, no canopy) that I always used to protect when I lived there.  I imagine it saw similar temps that I saw last year but was unprotected by the new owners of my old house. It died back but came back strong once the weather warmed up. I now have two on the north side of my new house that are among the few palms that are not being protected tonight. I also have two spindles that I have had in pots for years... they get little protection and have powered through the last 5 or so winters here in NE Florida. In my experience, they are way hardier than bottles.

[Merlyn]

It got a lot colder at my place last night than expected, 33-34F lows for about 4 hours.  I measured surface temperatures of 29-30F (using the optical meter) for plants not under cover.  On my back porch it was 38-40F.  I'm sure I'll see a few more burnt fronds on the Adonidia and a pair of unusually weak Spindles.  I moved my seedling ranch inside overnight, so my Album/Rubrum seedlings are safe!  I left one seedling each of Rubrum and one P. Macarthurii out just to see if they are hurt by the low temps.

Josh that's good news on the Pembana and Album, how much damage did they get from 26F?  And how big were they at the time?  The Pembana at Leu Gardens seems fairly tough and is 20+ feet tall, but it's under canopy.

[jreich85]

They were unphased really. They were all very small in one and two gallon pots. I will say that they probably had some wind and a little overhead protection, but I was still impressed!  They were next to one to two hundred small Lutes and Adonidias that all got toasted.

Luckily, it only got down to 35 at my place yesterday morning. So far no freeze yet this winter, so I'm happy at this point. 

[Merlyn]

My P. Macarthurii and D. Album/Rubrum seedlings also seem to be unphased by being left outside on a non-windy 33-34F night.  It might get cold Mon-Wed nights, so I'll see how they do.

I had a couple of more thoughts on the front corner spot:

• Carpoxylon Macrospermum is supposed to survive upper 20s in FL with severe damage.  Most of the freeze damage data is from CA, and these palms supposedly hate cold dry wind.
• Burretiokentia Hapala is also good to the high 20s but dies around 25-26F.

I'm not sure if either would be a good choice for the front corners, being cold tender and slower growing.  Any other ideas?

[Zeeth]

57 minutes ago, Merlyn2220 said:

My P. Macarthurii and D. Album/Rubrum seedlings also seem to be unphased by being left outside on a non-windy 33-34F night.  It might get cold Mon-Wed nights, so I'll see how they do.

I had a couple of more thoughts on the front corner spot:

• Carpoxylon Macrospermum is supposed to survive upper 20s in FL with severe damage.  Most of the freeze damage data is from CA, and these palms supposedly hate cold dry wind.
• Burretiokentia Hapala is also good to the high 20s but dies around 25-26F.

I'm not sure if either would be a good choice for the front corners, being cold tender and slower growing.  Any other ideas?

For what it's worth, I've had pretty good luck with Carpoxylon in cold snaps. It's been about as hardy as a foxtail for me. 

[Merlyn]

My wife is still pushing for a coconut in that corner, I might have to do that "just because."   

If I do that, what kind would you all recommend?  HD and Lowes sell generic 4' OA ones for $20 that look sort of like a Pacific Tall, or at least it's a green rachis/petiole type.  I like the yellow rachis/petiole types, but she doesn't like the Dypsis Lutescens.  So I'd have to stick with a green Malayan, Maypan, Pacific or similar.  I can easily order a pair of dwarf Malayan 2' seedlings from Miami growers on eBay for about $40 shipped, or I can get bigger ones from Green's for $35-65 each that are already 6-10' tall.  Are there any other good sources in the Orlando area?

[redant]

Just get the $20 ones from HD, they are going to die anyway so write them off as annuals, like a tray of flowers.

 

[Merlyn]

5 minutes ago, redant said:

Just get the $20 ones from HD, they are going to die anyway so write them off as annuals, like a tray of flowers.

Hahahahah, brutal and totally true!    I spend way too much in $1ea trays of flowers too, a lot more than $40!

[Zeeth]

I agree with redant. There are some differences between the varieties on cold tolerance in marginal areas, but it sounds like you're too cold to worry about this. You might have better luck with a Fiji dwarf fitting into the spot, and staying small enough to protect for longer, but I'd stick with a big-box coconut for now to get experience with protecting them during cold spells so you don't accidentally kill a rare variety. 

[Merlyn]

6 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I agree with redant. There are some differences between the varieties on cold tolerance in marginal areas, but it sounds like you're too cold to worry about this. You might have better luck with a Fiji dwarf fitting into the spot, and staying small enough to protect for longer, but I'd stick with a big-box coconut for now to get experience with protecting them during cold spells so you don't accidentally kill a rare variety. 

That's a good point.  At this point I don't know enough about coconuts to really ID them myself, much less when they need to be protected or how to do so.  I guess I can justify it as an annual in this spot as a learning experience.  Is there a "common" variety that is a quick grower but more tall-upright fronds than others?  Or are they all fairly similar when young?

So I have P. Macarthurii and Dictyosperma Album/Rubrum seedlings started, along with 3G and 7G pots of Dypsis Pembana and Arenga Engleri (maybe Tremula) and Chambeyronia Macrocarpa.  I'm definitely going to look at the Carpoxylon Macrospermum, Psuedophoenix Sargentii, Kentiopsis Oliviformis, Pinanga Coronota (either form), Archontophoenix Cunninghamia and Alexandrae, Ravenea Hildebrantii and definitely the Burretiokentia Hapala.  I hadn't run across a few of those before as "survivors" in Central FL, and some I had written off earlier as "no chance."  I'll have some Viburnum hedges tall enough by the end of the year to provide winter wind protection for a few spots.  Some of those would be great as a long-term planting for these semi-protected spots!

[Zeeth]

3 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

That's a good point.  At this point I don't know enough about coconuts to really ID them myself, much less when they need to be protected or how to do so.  I guess I can justify it as an annual in this spot as a learning experience.  Is there a "common" variety that is a quick grower but more tall-upright fronds than others?  Or are they all fairly similar when young?

The ones you see at the store are Malayans. Less common varieties can get pricey pretty quickly unless you know where to look. Red Spicata might fit the bill for what you're looking for, but they're pretty expensive and hard to find unless you get lucky.

[redant]

5 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

That's a good point.  At this point I don't know enough about coconuts to really ID them myself, much less when they need to be protected or how to do so.  I guess I can justify it as an annual in this spot as a learning experience.  Is there a "common" variety that is a quick grower but more tall-upright fronds than others?  Or are they all fairly similar when young?

So I have P. Macarthurii and Dictyosperma Album/Rubrum seedlings started, along with 3G and 7G pots of Dypsis Pembana and Arenga Engleri (maybe Tremula) and Chambeyronia Macrocarpa.  I'm definitely going to look at the Carpoxylon Macrospermum, Psuedophoenix Sargentii, Kentiopsis Oliviformis, Pinanga Coronota (either form), Archontophoenix Cunninghamia and Alexandrae, Ravenea Hildebrantii and definitely the Burretiokentia Hapala.  I hadn't run across a few of those before as "survivors" in Central FL, and some I had written off earlier as "no chance."  I'll have some Viburnum hedges tall enough by the end of the year to provide winter wind protection for a few spots.  Some of those would be great as a long-term planting for these semi-protected spots!

In the 09/ 10 cold spell I lost a lot of coconuts, the only other palm that died to my surprise was Chambeyronia Macrocarpa. Carpoxylon Macrospermum just like to croak no matter what, as you know from the other thread.  I tried Archontophoenix Cunninghamia  at a camp I have in Polk county, dead from the cold. Going to be brutally honest again, nothing on that list looks like a very long term survivor for you based on your description on your zone., not saying don't try, I try all kinds of palms I know don't stand a chance. 

[Merlyn]

1 minute ago, redant said:

In the 09/ 10 cold spell I lost a lot of coconuts, the only other palm that died to my surprise was Chambeyronia Macrocarpa. Carpoxylon Macrospermum just like to croak no matter what, as you know from the other thread.  I tried Archontophoenix Cunninghamia  at a camp I have in Polk county, dead from the cold. Going to be brutally honest again, nothing on that list looks like a very long term survivor for you based on your description on your zone., not saying don't try, I try all kinds of palms I know don't stand a chance. 

I've read that the Carpoxylon just randomly die every once in a while, like the Dypsis Carlsmithii.  I'm surprised at the Chambeyronia though, Eric @ Leu said that his were undamaged that winter.  But they are known to take significant damage in the mid-upper 20s and sometimes die at 25F, so I guess I could see an extended upper 20s as being fatal.

I have probably 40 long term survivors (Cycads, Arenga, Queens, Phoenix, Livistona, Copernicia, Butia, B. Alfredii, Sabals and others) barring a 20F cold front or disease like TPPD or Fusarium.  A bunch of the others on that list I will probably buy because they look awesome when they are young, and I have no illusions about them being able to survive a windy 25F night.  I'm never totally satisfied with the yard layout, and my wife likes the "jungle" look.  So I don't mind planting stuff that is effectively dead the minute it goes into the ground, as long as it makes me happy while it's alive!