Zone 10 Palms in the Orlando Area Mega Thread

[GottmitAlex]

10 minutes ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

Royals and foxtails really seem to be the fad for new plantings, both residential and commercial across Orlando. A new complex is going up on South Semoran near the airport (a Mission BBQ!) and saw they planted these palms. Also saw new royal plantings at John Young and Presidents Dr (I didn't get pics)  

Here I thought B. alfredii were the new "Kids on the block" in Orlando.

[pj_orlando_z9b]

3 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Here I thought B. alfredii were the new "Kids on the block" in Orlando.

They are just more readily available and fast growth equals instant impact. 

[palmsOrl]

Yeah, I have seen a few more houses in Winter Park with newly installed, larger royal palms.  I think they are slowly but surely catching on, but they won't become ubiquitous until we start seeing them at every big box store.  I think Roystonea are way better looking than Beccariophoenix personally.  Foxtails, it's a toss up and only because most in this area only look okay to decent and that has nothing to do with cold.

Ptychosperma elegans (and P. mcarthurii) would be a nice one to plant all over town too.  Cheap, fast growing and easily replaceable.   Eric S. has a really nice photo of one in Orlando on Palmpedia.  Another thing to consider, is, these marginal species are less likely to become invasive in the Orlando area than in climates more like their native range.  This may certainly change if the climate is indeed warming.

Edited August 14, 2019 by palmsOrl

[palmsOrl]

On 8/13/2019 at 12:20 PM, RedRabbit said:

Glad you’re back, welcome home buddy! 

Thank you RedRabbit, glad to be back.

[Merlyn]

6 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Ptychosperma elegans (and P. mcarthurii) would be a nice one to plant all over town too.  Cheap, fast growing and easily replaceable.  

I have a few seedlings of P. Macarthurii, and have those listed in my notes as "severe burn 2009 Leu 29F, defoliated @22F Daytona but regrew from roots."  The "Freeze Damage Data" for Elegans seems to indicate about the same, with variably severe damage in the mid 20s and not a lot of damage in the upper 20s.  I chose the clustering type because they seem to grow back with a vengeance after freezes.  The Elegans entries are all really old, does anyone have other big ones in the Orlando area with recent cold damage data?

[palmsOrl]

Merlyn2220, I had one for a few years before I moved that was about 10 feet tall.  It received essentially no damage in the low 30s and was under a large tree, so it likely saw little to no frost.  I am sure they will be mostly defoliated from upper 20s but should regrow a full crown the next summer.  Mid-20s is the kill point for this species, but such temperatures are on the rare side now in the Orlando heat island so if you are in the city or inner suburbs they should last for quite some time.  P. macarthurii is an even better choice for the reason you mentioned and there is an old established clump at a motel near UCF that has been there since the 1990s.  

[palmsOrl]

Horrible photo, but here is a Cocos behind a restaurant in Winter Park at the corner of Pennsylvania and Fairbanks.

[kinzyjr]

On 8/14/2019 at 6:40 PM, Merlyn2220 said:

I have a few seedlings of P. Macarthurii, and have those listed in my notes as "severe burn 2009 Leu 29F, defoliated @22F Daytona but regrew from roots."  The "Freeze Damage Data" for Elegans seems to indicate about the same, with variably severe damage in the mid 20s and not a lot of damage in the upper 20s.  I chose the clustering type because they seem to grow back with a vengeance after freezes.  The Elegans entries are all really old, does anyone have other big ones in the Orlando area with recent cold damage data?

Probably not the most cold that the Ptychosperma elegans has ever taken, but a recent observation for you.  In Lakeland, FL, there has been one at the Publix Parking Garage downtown since at least May 2015.  It may have been there earlier, but the Google maps image from 2007 is too hazy to say definitively.  Being there in 2015 means that it took the 28F advective freeze with 10-15mph winds in Jan. 2018 and has not only lived but continued to flower.  The advective freeze had between 10-12 straight hours below 32F.  I added a recent image to the Remarkable Palms in Tampa Bay thread. 

Here is the Google Maps link for proof:  Ptychosperma elegans - Lakeland, FL - 2015

[palmsOrl]

Driving home from work this week I saw a coconut in a yard downtown as well as a couple yards with mature royals.  Also, those coconuts near Kaley Ave. have grown considerably and look really healthy.

Also, I was curious to see if I could find any photos of the coconuts in Orlando in the 1950s.  My Google Image search brought up tons of queen palms but I did find this one.

[RedRabbit]

On 8/14/2019 at 6:40 PM, Merlyn2220 said:

I have a few seedlings of P. Macarthurii, and have those listed in my notes as "severe burn 2009 Leu 29F, defoliated @22F Daytona but regrew from roots."  The "Freeze Damage Data" for Elegans seems to indicate about the same, with variably severe damage in the mid 20s and not a lot of damage in the upper 20s.  I chose the clustering type because they seem to grow back with a vengeance after freezes.  The Elegans entries are all really old, does anyone have other big ones in the Orlando area with recent cold damage data?

I had P elegans and P macarthurii at an old property here during the freeze in 2018. Elegans took a good bit of damage, maybe 60% burn. Macarthurii had no damage. It was planted next to a B alfredii with maybe 10% damage, a >50% damaged d pembana, and a little roystonea that barely survived.

In my experience, Macarthurii seems like a very underrated palm for cold tolerance. My only other palms to do as well were A cunninghamiana and P roebelenii.

[GottmitAlex]

3 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I had P elegans and P macarthurii at an old property here during the freeze in 2018. Elegans took a good bit of damage, maybe 60% burn. Macarthurii had no damage. It was planted next to a B alfredii with maybe 10% damage, a >50% damaged d pembana, and a little roystonea that barely survived.

In my experience, Macarthurii seems like a very underrated palm for cold tolerance. My only other palms to do as well were A cunninghamiana and P roebelenii.

Do you have pics of the Macarthurii?

[RedRabbit]

29 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

Do you have pics of the Macarthurii?

Nope, sold the house last year.

I bought the palm from @Mike Evans as 3g. It had good cold tolerance, but was a fairly slow grower. Not sure if I’d get it again for that reason. 

[ck_in_fla]

On 8/13/2019 at 5:53 PM, GottmitAlex said:

Here I thought B. alfredii were the new "Kids on the block" in Orlando.

I drove by these (Roystonea at Mission Barbecue on Semoran in Orlando) yesterday and they look great.  Obviously, they are being well cared for.

I had to go to a meeting at a hotel East of Semoran in that same area.  Much to my surprise, I saw large Roystoneas installed in the strip of ground dividing the traffic lanes.  They have obviously been installed recently as the supports holding them in place look new.  I believe all of that area has been incorporated by the City of Orlando.  So, I think the City of Orlando is now using Roystonea in public plantings.  Can anyone confirm this?

Edited September 14, 2019 by ck_in_fla

[ck_in_fla]

10 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Driving home from work this week I saw a coconut in a yard downtown as well as a couple yards with mature royals.  Also, those coconuts near Kaley Ave. have grown considerably and look really healthy.

Also, I was curious to see if I could find any photos of the coconuts in Orlando in the 1950s.  My Google Image search brought up tons of queen palms but I did find this one.

I have some pictures somewhere that document Coconut palms being used in landscapes in Winter Park (just North of Orlando) back in the late 1950's.  I believe it was at a motel in 1958.  The Coconut palms were mature with fruit.  I think there was a huge freeze in 1962 that wiped out all of the tropicals.  But, apparently, before that the Orlando area was home to many zone 10B palms.

I will look for the pictures and (if I can find them) post them here.

[palmsOrl]

I would definitely like to see photos of the Cocos once growing in Winter Park and the Roystonea at the hotel east of Semoran.  The City should certainly start planting Roystonea widely and planting them just as they are reaching trunking stage or larger would be best as they are quite tender when small.

It certainly would seem that the 1950s and perhaps the 1940s and 1950s were a warm period for this area.  Still, when I looked back at the data of the annual lowest temperatures for each year going back to the 1890s, almost every year back then had a temperature well into the 20s, it is only in the past 15 years, really since the 2003-2004, that winters with official freezes at the reporting stations have become the exception rather than the rule.  Meaning, most years are freezeless now.

[Merlyn]

11 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I had P elegans and P macarthurii at an old property here during the freeze in 2018. Elegans took a good bit of damage, maybe 60% burn. Macarthurii had no damage. It was planted next to a B alfredii with maybe 10% damage, a >50% damaged d pembana, and a little roystonea that barely survived.

In my experience, Macarthurii seems like a very underrated palm for cold tolerance. My only other palms to do as well were A cunninghamiana and P roebelenii.

I bought some Macarthurii seedlings for that reason, but like you said in a followup post, they are SLOW.  Out of the ~40 seedling species in pots in my nursery area, they are by far the slowest.  Even the JxB and BxJ are faster growing!

That's good to hear that the Elegans are similar to Pembana, I have a Pembana in a sunny spot on the SE corner of my house, sorta protected from frost.  It's a rocket, I bought it from MB Palms last November as a 1G, planted it in April and it's about 6' tall now and pumping out at least 1 frond/month on every stem.  I'd plant them all over the yard except for the routine upper-20s freezes at my house. 

[Makaisland Palms]

So ive just found out that I'm going to visit Orlando this December, taking the kids to Wally world!  But my first thought was yeah!!!! I'm leaving frozen Europe and I'll get to see some palm trees!!! So I'm just wondering, what can I expect to see this time of year.  Any spots nearby that I should definitely check out? Should I just stop by some of your houses?!   And, will there be any chances of gathering some seeds at that time of year?  

 

Thanks for any tips!

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Makaisland Palms said:

So ive just found out that I'm going to visit Orlando this December, taking the kids to Wally world!  But my first thought was yeah!!!! I'm leaving frozen Europe and I'll get to see some palm trees!!! So I'm just wondering, what can I expect to see this time of year.  Any spots nearby that I should definitely check out? Should I just stop by some of your houses?!   And, will there be any chances of gathering some seeds at that time of year?  

 

Thanks for any tips!

If you are going to set aside time while you are in Orlando to go see palms and tropical plants, I would heavily recommend Leu Gardens.  In December, there will likely be Christmas Palms (Adonidia merrillii) seeding.  Sabal palmetto and Sabal minor will have fruited 1 month to six weeks previous and will likely have viable seed.  Potentially some Royal palms seeds (Roystonea regia).  I'm certain that there are more.

[JASON M]

Roystonea Regia Northeast of Orlando in Howey-in-the-Hills 

[kinzyjr]

1 minute ago, JASON M said:

Roystonea Regia Northeast of Orlando in Howey-in-the-Hills

Northwest, but nice pictures.  I didn't get past this one when I was up there last.

[palmsOrl]

19 minutes ago, JASON M said:

Roystonea Regia Northeast of Orlando in Howey-in-the-Hills 

The zones really are creeping north.  Those don't even look to have a trace of cold damage.  Howey-in-the-Hills is WELL northwest of Orlando.

I realize there are photos of royals in the Howey-in-the-Hills area from early last century, but they might have been recently planted in said photos.  On the other hand, mature royals are surprisingly hardy and certainly could have survived a string of mild winters in Lake County, even in the first half of the twentieth century.

[Makaisland Palms]

10 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

If you are going to set aside time while you are in Orlando to go see palms and tropical plants, I would heavily recommend Leu Gardens.  In December, there will likely be Christmas Palms (Adonidia merrillii) seeding.  Sabal palmetto and Sabal minor will have fruited 1 month to six weeks previous and will likely have viable seed.  Potentially some Royal palms seeds (Roystonea regia).  I'm certain that there are more.

Awesome!  Thanks!  I hope to check it out then as soon as I'm tired of the magic Kingdom!

[redant]

On 8/14/2019 at 6:40 PM, Merlyn2220 said:

I have a few seedlings of P. Macarthurii, and have those listed in my notes as "severe burn 2009 Leu 29F, defoliated @22F Daytona but regrew from roots."  The "Freeze Damage Data" for Elegans seems to indicate about the same, with variably severe damage in the mid 20s and not a lot of damage in the upper 20s.  I chose the clustering type because they seem to grow back with a vengeance after freezes.  The Elegans entries are all really old, does anyone have other big ones in the Orlando area with recent cold damage data?

 

 

 I have a  Bactris gasipaes that was completely killed in 09/10 (so I thought) I wasn't unhappy about it either as it's a mean mother.  Anyway she back in full glory as she's a clumper and lot's of new sprouts came up from the dead. A beautiful palm but spines everywhere. Bet these would survive Orlando if they got big enough before being set back from the cold. 

Edited September 15, 2019 by redant

[redant]

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by redant

[JASON M]

20 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

The zones really are creeping north.  Those don't even look to have a trace of cold damage.  Howey-in-the-Hills is WELL northwest of Orlando.

This location is only a 53 min drive from my house even further northwest, in Ocala. I’ve dreamed about having a Royal here. However, these palms are within a resort’s courtyard that kept them sheltered for a long time. 

[Eric in Orlando]

21 hours ago, redant said:

 

 

 I have a  Bactris gasipaes that was completely killed in 09/10 (so I thought) I wasn't unhappy about it either as it's a mean mother.  Anyway she back in full glory as she's a clumper and lot's of new sprouts came up from the dead. A beautiful palm but spines everywhere. Bet these would survive Orlando if they got big enough before being set back from the cold. 

It does well here, we have had it growing at Leu since 1994. Foliage is tender, burns at about 30f. Gets lkilled back around 27-28f but comes back from the roots very fast. The oldest clump here has froze back a few times, most recently after the 2009-10 winter. It was growing back and a nearby tree broke and crushed part of it. It  regre and had grown back to about 15ft tall  then Hurricane Irma tilted the clump and most of the bigger stems broke off. Its growing back again. Its a tough palm.

[Eric in Orlando]

the winter of 1957-58 was a cold one and would have wiped out the Cocos in the Orlando area.

This is at a hotel in Winter Park. It is on 17/92 just north of Fairbanks and was torn down a few years ago. Besides Cocos there appears to be mature Adonidia on the far right.

 

[Eric in Orlando]

Old post card from Winter Park

 

[Eric in Orlando]

Central Park in downtown Winter Park in the 1920s

 

[Eric in Orlando]

Kingswood Manor neighborhood, north of Lee Rd and west of I4, just west of Winter Park. Photo is from 1963.

 

[ck_in_fla]

1 hour ago, Eric in Orlando said:

the winter of 1957-58 was a cold one and would have wiped out the Cocos in the Orlando area.

This is at a hotel in Winter Park. It is on 17/92 just north of Fairbanks and was torn down a few years ago. Besides Cocos there appears to be mature Adonidia on the far right.

 

This is the picture I was talking about.  Eric beat me to the punch.  I am sure he is more organized than I am...

:-)

[palmsOrl]

Based on that, I am sure now Cocos could be widely planted in urban Orlando and many would live between big freezes.   Annual lows have trended up since 2004.  They must have been short term back then too (I mean 5-10 years at most, not 30).  Some of those sure look to have been around a while.  The royals are less surprising, though Orlando is traditionally considered a little north of the royal palm zone.

[RedRabbit]

5 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Based on that, I am sure now Cocos could be widely planted in urban Orlando and many would live between big freezes.   Annual lows have trended up since 2004.  They must have been short term back then too (I mean 5-10 years at most, not 30).  Some of those sure look to have been around a while.  The royals are less surprising, though Orlando is traditionally considered a little north of the royal palm zone.

I think planting in relatively protected locations makes a big difference in marginal climates like Orlando and Tampa. I noticed in 2010 and 2018 close to buildings and out of the wind made a huge difference. These cities are close to warm enough on their own so planting on the south side of a house or a courtyard makes all the difference vs open yard. Kinda obvious point, but it just seems so significant. 

[Eric in Orlando]

Besides a protected location I think they survive better where they get early morning sun to warm up fast. Shaded coconuts might get frost protection but it takes longer to warm on those cold mornings.

[pj_orlando_z9b]

I was looking back at my growth in 6 months. In April, my adonidia and coconut were still recovering from the freeze 14 months earlier. Look how much the coconut gained height over the large adonidia and now makes it look like a dwarf. 3 of the 6 inflorescence have opened and the first set of coconuts has started gaining size.

Edited October 1, 2019 by pj_orlando_z9b

[Merlyn]

On 9/17/2019 at 8:42 AM, Eric in Orlando said:

Besides a protected location I think they survive better where they get early morning sun to warm up fast. Shaded coconuts might get frost protection but it takes longer to warm on those cold mornings.

I've been thinking about this myself, after two nights at ~33F last January I had noticed some significant differences in 4 nearly identical variegated Agave Desmettiana.  Two were planted next to my driveway and got sun pretty early in the winter AM, they had no damage.  Two other ones were in a shady protected area about 30 feet away, but without AM sun and without a driveway.  They had 30% damage.  I'm sure the concrete driveway helped a bit too, but I'm pretty sure the early AM sun was a big factor.  I moved the two damaged ones to the driveway directly across from the others, so we'll see what happens.

Based on that thought I've planted a few of my less-hardy plants like Hyophorbes and Encephalartos Laurentianus in spots that'll get early AM sun in the winter as well as being near concrete and my house.

[Merlyn]

Here's an end-of-summer update on the green coconut at the SW corner of East Osceola Parkway and Windy Cove Dr. in the Kissimmee / Buena Ventura Lakes area.  It's been opening new fronds regularly over the summer and has never shown a hint of brown tips or any nutritional problems.  The person living there definitely likes their tropicals!  This photo is from the sidewalk and the brick wall is about 6 feet tall.  I'd estimate it is 12-14' overall.  In a previous post someone suggested that this might be a Beccariophoenix instead of a Cocos, but the fronds don't look a lot like my B. Alfredii.  Any thoughts?

[palmsOrl]

8 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

Here's an end-of-summer update on the green coconut at the SW corner of East Osceola Parkway and Windy Cove Dr. in the Kissimmee / Buena Ventura Lakes area.  It's been opening new fronds regularly over the summer and has never shown a hint of brown tips or any nutritional problems.  The person living there definitely likes their tropicals!  This photo is from the sidewalk and the brick wall is about 6 feet tall.  I'd estimate it is 12-14' overall.  In a previous post someone suggested that this might be a Beccariophoenix instead of a Cocos, but the fronds don't look a lot like my B. Alfredii.  Any thoughts?

Cocos.

[pj_orlando_z9b]

My Christmas Palms are doing their thing. 

[Eric in Orlando]

I saw this Roystonea on Sunday in Ocoee. Its on Maguire Rd., south of Hwy 50 and north of the FL Turnpike. The photo is from Google streetview, from June 2019.  It goes back to April 2011 and the palm is there then too.