Experiment - Separating overgrown Livistona Chinensis pots

[Merlyn]

Earlier this spring I sliced a big box store Majesty triple apart with a big kukri knife, just separating them into 3 equal parts.  I figured that I'd take a decent amount of large and small roots on each plant so they'd probably be okay.  I planted them in a shady corner, they just sat there for about 2 months and then started growing normally.  They've doubled in size since May, and seem pretty healthy.  A few days ago I ran across a ridiculously overplanted Livistona Chinensis 3 gallon pot with a whopping 7 individual plants in it.  For $10 I thought it would be a fun experiment to try and separate these out and see if they survived. 

Since they were so intertwined it was obvious the slice-and-dice method wasn't going to work.  I washed as much of the (apparently pine bark) soil from the root ball and then slowly untwined the roots, trying not to break the big ones.  One of them was fairly loose (the left one in the picture below) and it only had one large root mixed in with the others.  So that one was easy to pull out.  Two of the really small 1" diameter ones separated easily because they had few roots, then the last 4 came apart in under a minute.  I potted them up into 2.5qt and one 1G pot for the biggest, using a mix of sand and Miracle Gro potting mix. They are now sitting over in 50% shade and we'll see how many survive!  I'm betting the bigger ones (about 2" diameter) survive but the two small ones (about 1" diameter) don't.  They all seemed to have a decent number of large and small roots, and I don't think I damaged the root initiation zone on any of them, so there's a chance!

Edited February 13, 2019 by Merlyn2220

[AZPalms]

59 minutes ago, Merlyn2220 said:

Earlier this spring I sliced a big box store Majesty triple apart with a big kukri knife, just separating them into 3 equal parts.  I figured that I'd take a decent amount of large and small roots on each plant so they'd probably be okay.  I planted them in a shady corner, they just sat there for about 2 months and then started growing normally.  They've doubled in size since May, and seem pretty healthy.  A few days ago I ran across a ridiculously overplanted Livistona Chinensis 3 gallon pot with a whopping 7 individual plants in it.  For $10 I thought it would be a fun experiment to try and separate these out and see if they survived. 

Since they were so intertwined it was obvious the slice-and-dice method wasn't going to work.  I washed as much of the (apparently pine bark) soil from the root ball and then slowly untwined the roots, trying not to break the big ones.  One of them was fairly loose (the left one in the picture below) and it only had one large root mixed in with the others.  So that one was easy to pull out.  Two of the really small 1" diameter ones separated easily because they had few roots, then the last 4 came apart in under a minute.  I potted them up into 2.5qt and one 1G pot for the biggest, using a mix of sand and Miracle Gro potting mix. They are now sitting over in 50% shade and we'll see how many survive!  I'm betting the bigger ones (about 2" diameter) survive but the two small ones (about 1" diameter) don't.  They all seemed to have a decent number of large and small roots, and I don't think I damaged the root initiation zone on any of them, so there's a chance!

Wow 7 plants!! Keep us updated.  I see small  Acrea palms with probably 20 in a pot lol. 

[Fusca]

Looks like you did a pretty good job of separating them - my guess is that you lose one or two at the most.  Not a big loss if it doesn't work but I think you'll get survivors.

[Laaz]

That's the way I do it all the time, lose is rare with most palms.

[redant]

Those are tough palms, I think all 7 are winners.

[Merlyn]

That's true, the Livistona seem to be pretty tough.  I have seen some thrown in a junk pile at a nursery half in and out of pots without watering or practically any soil...and they just kept on growing!  I haven't figured out a spot for them that they'll look good as a shrubbery and later work as tall palms.  But I'm sure I'll find a spot if they live, I just dug out 2 more water oak stumps so I have another 10x20 area for planting!  

[PalmatierMeg]

Good work. You just need patience and time to tease all the roots apart. I've separated numerous (low root sensitivity) species the same way. I once got 40 seedlings of Chamaedorea elegans out of a $3.50 4" pot.

[Merlyn]

On 2/14/2019 at 11:01 AM, PalmatierMeg said:

I once got 40 seedlings of Chamaedorea elegans out of a $3.50 4" pot.

All the Livistona seem to be growing okay, and are "using up" the lower fronds at a normal rate, at least one I'd expect to see with significant root hacking!  The larger diameter ones appear to already be growing new spear length, the smaller are not yet.  I was a dummy and forgot to sharpie-mark them when I transplanted them...whups!  I'll probably move the bigger ones out into >50% sun in a few days. 

Coincidentally Meg, I picked up a mass pot of Chamaedora Elegans seedlings, about 6' tall each.  I'll probably try to split them up into smaller groups, they are in 3 big clumps of 10-15 seedlings per clump.  Are those pretty tolerant of root abuse?    

[PalmatierMeg]

2 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

All the Livistona seem to be growing okay, and are "using up" the lower fronds at a normal rate, at least one I'd expect to see with significant root hacking!  The larger diameter ones appear to already be growing new spear length, the smaller are not yet.  I was a dummy and forgot to sharpie-mark them when I transplanted them...whups!  I'll probably move the bigger ones out into >50% sun in a few days. 

Coincidentally Meg, I picked up a mass pot of Chamaedora Elegans seedlings, about 6' tall each.  I'll probably try to split them up into smaller groups, they are in 3 big clumps of 10-15 seedlings per clump.  Are those pretty tolerant of root abuse?    

They should do fine as small seedlings as long as you are patient and careful with them. You may lose a few weaker plants. Ironically, when forced to compete in clumps, the vast majority end up dying anyway. A full grown single C. elegans is a lovely miniature palm that flowerw when only 2-3' tall.

[kurt decker]

Two things that can help a lot when you're separating clumps of seedlings from a pot. When you finally get them all apart, dip them in a mild fungicide before you plant them. That'll ensure that any breaks in the roots don't provide an entry point for fungus. Second, remove some leaf surface, either by trimming off leaves or cutting leaves in half. You're just trying to balance any loss of root tips. Sounds like you did a great job.

[PalmatierMeg]

2 hours ago, kurt decker said:

Two things that can help a lot when you're separating clumps of seedlings from a pot. When you finally get them all apart, dip them in a mild fungicide before you plant them. That'll ensure that any breaks in the roots don't provide an entry point for fungus. Second, remove some leaf surface, either by trimming off leaves or cutting leaves in half. You're just trying to balance any loss of root tips. Sounds like you did a great job.

Thanks for the tips.

[Merlyn]

Here's a 6 month update on the experiment: 1 dead and 6 alive!  I managed to kill one by accident, I have a little nursery area with 2 drip sprinklers on a timer.  When I was rearranging the area for some new seedlings in the beginning of May, I accidentally left 2 of the pots out of range of the sprinklers.  We had a drought in May so one died from lack of water.  The second still had a bit of green on the spear and is slowly making a recovery.  I planted the other 5 here to form a little shrubbery, with the intent of eventually growing to replace the big water oak just off camera to the right.  They are already getting a little bit sunburnt but should pull through okay.

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, Merlyn2220 said:

1 dead and 6 alive!  I managed to kill one by accident

My prediction was correct!  LOL  I probably would have lost at least a couple if I had attempted it!  Those will look nice when they start to fill out and you could probably squeeze the another one in there as well.  I've seen a couple of commercial plantings in Florida where they were used as ground cover and I thought it was pretty cool.  They will take a while before they get much height to them.  I'd say it's a successful experiment.

[Merlyn]

30 minutes ago, Fusca said:

I've seen a couple of commercial plantings in Florida where they were used as ground cover and I thought it was pretty cool.

Yeah there's a spot at the corner of Lake Mary Blvd. and Rinehart Rd. that has a row of Chinensis as a hedge.  This is the planting that made me think about doing this, with about 30 or so in a staggered line.  They were planted at least 5 years ago just slightly bigger than the ones I planted.  Because they are so close to the walkway they have to waaaaay overtrim them, but I shouldn't have that problem.

[Fusca]

Looks better than a fence 

[Emarohl]

I ended up doing something similar to you. I bought this livistona chinesis and it came with 6 total seedlings in “one” plant. I ended up separating them into trios, as I was afraid that cutting the roots too much would lead to more damage. I’ve seen them grow in groups of three before so I’m hoping I won’t have to separate them again. I dipped them in fungicide before planting as the poster above me recommended. Have not yet taken any leaves off simply because there aren’t that many and I don’t wanna overstress the little guys. 
 

I’ve got them sitting in partial sunlight for now, we’ll see how they do these next coming weeks! It’s been hot here in Sarasota so I might move them to the shade or a sunny window if they show signs of stress. 
 

fingers crossed! 

[Merlyn]

9 minutes ago, Emarohl said:

I’ve got them sitting in partial sunlight for now, we’ll see how they do these next coming weeks! It’s been hot here in Sarasota so I might move them to the shade or a sunny window if they show signs of stress.  fingers crossed!

Looks great!  I agree with your tactic of doing 2x triples, at that size they don't have a ton of roots and quite a bit of leaf area.  So a fairly shady area (especially PM shade) is a good choice.  I eventually ended up with 5 out of 7 survivors...and ironically transplanted the 5 in the previous photo over to the NE side of my yard.  I put them in a close pack, with about 1 foot between each palm.  I figured this would be far enough apart to not crush each other, but hopefully close enough together to get just a little bit of curve as the trunk bases push each other apart.

[Emarohl]

So I ended up having to trim almost all of the fronds off due to transplant shock. I think leaving them outside in the summer heat was too much for them. A few of them have a green spear leaf coming through but others have a crispy looking spear leaf. I’ve been watering frequently (but not drowning them) to ensure the roots are moist and I moved them inside in my garage with a grow light for now. I’m hoping they bounce back in a few weeks. 

[Merlyn]

4 hours ago, Emarohl said:

So I ended up having to trim almost all of the fronds off due to transplant shock. I think leaving them outside in the summer heat was too much for them. A few of them have a green spear leaf coming through but others have a crispy looking spear leaf. I’ve been watering frequently (but not drowning them) to ensure the roots are moist and I moved them inside in my garage with a grow light for now. I’m hoping they bounce back in a few weeks. 

I think maybe summer heat is ok, but only in good shade.  I did mine in February when the highs are around 75F here, so I am sure that helped me a lot.  I'd mix some Daconil + hydrogen peroxide and spray a little bit into the crown and spear.  I think that has helped me a lot on some spear pulled/dead spear palms.

[Tomas]

What is immediately striking is the difference in the size and quantity of the roots of the plants if compared