Detailed native range map for Florida Royal Palms.

[Ubuntwo]

The orange areas represented (confirmed) extirpated native populations. (Everglades City, Mahogany Hammock, Seven Palm Lake, Mouth of the Little River, and a grove about 3 miles north of Fort Dallas.)

The red areas represent current native populations. (Much of Fakahatchee Strand, the tip of Florida Panther National Wildlife Refuge, a strand swamp in the Deep Lake region of Big Cypress, Rockland hammock of Collier-Seminole State Park, southern Picayune Strand, Johnson Mound, Big and Small Palm Hammocks, and Paradise Key.)

[PalmTreeDude]

Awesome map! Don't forget the native population on the Southside of Lake Okeechobee! 

[RedRabbit]

There’s a population of them in Desoto County too. 

http://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=604

[Zeeth]

And on Snead Island in Manatee county

[Ubuntwo]

The DeSoto county population consists of several trees by the Peace River. While it is vouchered, most historical literature as well as Regional Conservation data indicates that it is naturalized. Same goes for the St. Lucie river populations, the Loxahatchee river populations, the Emerson Point population, and the Okeechobee population. (which is on a highly disturbed site.)

 

In Florida these palms easily escape cultivation and naturalize readily. I'm sure you could argue these are native but just like the population Bartram recorded a strong cold spell or period could destroy them - royals even into the Fakahatchee died during the 2010 cold snap. As a result these outlier populations, even if they are native, are probably far newer and far less stable.

 

I'll try and make a map with all of these smaller populations later though.

[Missi]

Why aren't the ones in Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary in Collier County on the map? They're ancient natives. Attached are pics I took of them on my latest hike there a few weeks ago.

[Ubuntwo]

28 minutes ago, Missi said:

Why aren't the ones in Corkscrew Swamp Sanctuary in Collier County on the map? They're ancient natives. Attached are pics I took of them on my latest hike there a few weeks ago.

Yeah, I was aware that there were a few in the Corkscrew Swamp but couldn't find any good info on them except for on this forum. I'll include it in my next revision.

[palmsOrl]

57 minutes ago, Ubuntwo said:

The DeSoto county population consists of several trees by the Peace River. While it is vouchered, most historical literature as well as Regional Conservation data indicates that it is naturalized. Same goes for the St. Lucie river populations, the Loxahatchee river populations, the Emerson Point population, and the Okeechobee population. (which is on a highly disturbed site.)

 

In Florida these palms easily escape cultivation and naturalize readily. I'm sure you could argue these are native but just like the population Bartram recorded a strong cold spell or period could destroy them - royals even into the Fakahatchee died during the 2010 cold snap. As a result these outlier populations, even if they are native, are probably far newer and far less stable.

 

I'll try and make a map with all of these smaller populations later though.

Royals actually died in the Fakahatchee during the 2010 cold?  I have seen photos of them with some cosmetic foliage damage after the 2010 event, but I find it quite surprising that anywhere in the Fakahatchee got cold enough to kill royals.  My yard in Maitland got down to 24F and we had two nights in the mid 20s during that event.  Both my Cuban and Puerto Rican royals survived.

[Ubuntwo]

33 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

Royals actually died in the Fakahatchee during the 2010 cold?  I have seen photos of them with some cosmetic foliage damage after the 2010 event, but I find it quite surprising that anywhere in the Fakahatchee got cold enough to kill royals.  My yard in Maitland got down to 24F and we had two nights in the mid 20s during that event.  Both my Cuban and Puerto Rican royals survived.

Mature individuals survived just fine, however, some much younger individuals died at the north end of the park as it did get down to the mid 20s.

[Ubuntwo]

Sorry, upper 20s (probably about 29). Observed a couple dead seedlings just after the freeze on the elevated north tram trail. With less canopy cover on the trail no doubt they were more succeptibl

[palmsOrl]

1 hour ago, Ubuntwo said:

Mature individuals survived just fine, however, some much younger individuals died at the north end of the park as it did get down to the mid 20s.

Wow, as cold as the northern ‘burbs of Orlando down there.  Mid-20s can certainly kill smaller royals and occasionally large ones.

[Ubuntwo]

Just now, palmsOrl said:

Wow, as cold as the northern ‘burbs of Orlando down there.  Mid-20s can certainly kill smaller royals and occasionally large ones.

Corrected myself above, was more like 28 or so. Most of the palms are protected by the water and dense canopy, however some of them grow along the elevated tram roads which renders them more succeptible to cold.

[Ubuntwo]

Updated map...

Yellow includes the most significant naturalized/maybe native populations - on parts of the St. Lucie River, the Northwest Fork of the Loxahatchee River down to Riverbend Park, Matheson Hammock + Deering Estate, Peace River, and Emerson Point as well as a small grove on Lake Okeechobee.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Ubuntwo
Correction

[Missi]

5 hours ago, Ubuntwo said:

Yeah, I was aware that there were a few in the Corkscrew Swamp but couldn't find any good info on them except for on this forum. I'll include it in my next revision.

I just renewed my membership when I was there. We'll probably go this weekend and I'll ask if anyone at the visitor's center has info or history on them. 

[Ubuntwo]

1 hour ago, Missi said:

I just renewed my membership when I was there. We'll probably go this weekend and I'll ask if anyone at the visitor's center has info or history on them. 

From my minimal research can't find any reason for them to be introduced or naturalized, so I marked them as native on the new map. They sure do look at home!

Edit: Got it! This report has Roystonea as native but very rare in Corkscrew Swamp!

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ubuntwo

[Dave-Vero]

The classic Elbert Little range maps (Atlas of United States Trees Vol. 5 Florida. 1978)  are probably accurate.  There's so many royals in southeast Florida that it's to be expected that seeds will move about.  The  wild royals seem a recent development.

[Ubuntwo]

1 hour ago, Dave-Vero said:

The classic Elbert Little range maps (Atlas of United States Trees Vol. 5 Florida. 1978)  are probably accurate.  There's so many royals in southeast Florida that it's to be expected that seeds will move about.  The  wild royals seem a recent development.

The native range shown in my map is pretty much the same, with modifications for accuracy. For example, it shows Mahogany Hammock and 7 Palm Lake as portions of the native range, though these populations have since become extirpated. It's also a bit too limited in the Fakahatchee Strand. Otherwise, I agree with you on the wild royals. They typically occur near urban areas where seeds can easily escape from cultivation (similar to Dypsis lutescens except the former is of course native).

[Jimbean]

I did a thread on a similar topic a couple of months ago.  If you are going to count the naturalized royals on Snead Island, then why not the naturalized populations in St. Lucie county?

Here's one small group.  I have seen other clusters around Ft. Pierce and Port St. Lucie.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.502943,-80.3985115,3a,75y,64.02h,112.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh1oWAEAwyEIpMfJspq-HWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Ubuntwo]

2 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I did a thread on a similar topic a couple of months ago.  If you are going to count the naturalized royals on Snead Island, then why not the naturalized populations in St. Lucie county?

Here's one small group.  I have seen other clusters around Ft. Pierce and Port St. Lucie.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.502943,-80.3985115,3a,75y,64.02h,112.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh1oWAEAwyEIpMfJspq-HWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I counted the largest and most notable populations. If you look at the updated map above you can see I did mark the populations around the St. Lucie river in yellow.

Also, you can see large rows of planted Royal palms just across the road from the site you linked 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ubuntwo

[Jimbean]

2 minutes ago, Ubuntwo said:

I counted the largest and most notable populations. If you look at the updated map above you can see I did mark the populations around the St. Lucie river in yellow.

There are no large notable populations in St. Lucie county.  The south fork of the St. Lucie river that you highlighted is in Martin county. 

[Jimbean]

[Ubuntwo]

1 hour ago, Jimbean said:

Yes, the small highlighted sliver is an area in which there is a decent number of Royal Palms which are vouchered and that are certainly not planted. I found no such population in St. Lucie County (small scattered groupings of a couple trees but nothing like in Emerson Point for example).

Edit: Here is one portion of the Martin County St. Lucie River population: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.1099327,-80.2557252,151m/data=!3m1!1e3

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ubuntwo

[Jimbean]

Emerson Point royals were naturalized, and the population in the Peace River is a small scattering.  What constitutes as significant enough to mark on a map?

[Ubuntwo]

1 minute ago, Jimbean said:

Emerson Point royals were naturalized, and the population in the Peace River is a small scattering.  What constitutes as significant enough to mark on a map?

The yellow area is for naturalized populations, orange is extirpated, and red is native. Peace river is well-documented, vouchered, and is certainly not planted.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ubuntwo

[Jimbean]

1 minute ago, Ubuntwo said:

Peace river is well-documented, vouchered, and is certainly not planted.

Yes this is correct.  In this case, why not mark them in the red, as a red dot.

[Ubuntwo]

Part of the naturalized population on the south fork St. Lucie River. 

[Jimbean]

I read from the report that it was believed that those royals were in all likelihood not planted, and are Florida royals

[Jimbean]

Just now, Jimbean said:

I read from the report that it was believed that those royals were in all likelihood not planted, and are Florida royals

of course how this is determined is a good question.

[Jimbean]

This is a topic that I created a thread on before.  Here was a map I did marking some of those populations in central Florida:

 

 

[Ubuntwo]

Just now, Jimbean said:

Yes this is correct.  In this case, why not mark them in the red, as a red dot.

Unlike the everglades and fakahatchee populations, no historical accounts of the peace river area mention such a population. As a result, it most likely sprung up within the last century and could either be considered native or naturalized. The only real way to determine would be genetic analysis, to see if they are more similar to Cuban royal populations or Floridian populations (even if they are the same species, there would be some genetic difference.)

[Ubuntwo]

Massive stand of royals in Deering Estate

Tall palm on Paradise Key in the Everglades

Satellite image of a few Royal Palms on Big Palm Hammock - might be hard to spot for some

Very tall Royal in the Fakahatchee strand - 100 feet?

In Collier-Seminole State Park

Corkscrew Swamp

On the Loxahatchee River (Fairly certain this individual was killed by saltwater inundation but many more remain)

Very healthy on the St. Lucie River

 

[kurt decker]

Another genius thread. If there are no historical accounts of certain royal populations, I do not consider them native, but rather naturalized. The entire history of Royal Palms changed around 1990, when Manuel Diaz Farms started setting them out commercially in large numbers. None of the local planted groups regenerated much up to that point. I know, I live under one of the largest planted groups in Florida at that time, Northlake in Hollywood. And there was basically zero regeneration. Fungus took them all out. And we're talking about thousands of Palms producing hundreds of thousands of seeds each every year. When Manny started planting royals all over South Florida, that went exponential. And the occasional seedling started to beat the fungus. Much the same way that adonidia has become virtually immune to LY. All these little oddball groups mentioned above, more than likely are bird born seedlings that beat the odds. I would bet that your original map, Ubuntwo, is pretty close to about it for actual native populations. It fairly closely mirrors the distribution of tropical orchids in Florida. Again, species on the northern limit of their natural range. Somebody put a thread up a while back inquiring about the Royal Palms growing in the native hammocks along State Road 84 in Fort Lauderdale. They weren't there 20 years ago. I'm almost exactly due south of there by a few miles, and I get volunteers growing to maturity all the time now, and that's something you didn't see even 10 years ago. Times they are a-changing. Species they are adapting. Pretty cool if you ask me

[Ubuntwo]

26 minutes ago, kurt decker said:

Another genius thread. If there are no historical accounts of certain royal populations, I do not consider them native, but rather naturalized. The entire history of Royal Palms changed around 1990, when Manuel Diaz Farms started setting them out commercially in large numbers. None of the local planted groups regenerated much up to that point. I know, I live under one of the largest planted groups in Florida at that time, Northlake in Hollywood. And there was basically zero regeneration. Fungus took them all out. And we're talking about thousands of Palms producing hundreds of thousands of seeds each every year. When Manny started planting royals all over South Florida, that went exponential. And the occasional seedling started to beat the fungus. Much the same way that adonidia has become virtually immune to LY. All these little oddball groups mentioned above, more than likely are bird born seedlings that beat the odds. I would bet that your original map, Ubuntwo, is pretty close to about it for actual native populations. It fairly closely mirrors the distribution of tropical orchids in Florida. Again, species on the northern limit of their natural range. Somebody put a thread up a while back inquiring about the Royal Palms growing in the native hammocks along State Road 84 in Fort Lauderdale. They weren't there 20 years ago. I'm almost exactly due south of there by a few miles, and I get volunteers growing to maturity all the time now, and that's something you didn't see even 10 years ago. Times they are a-changing. Species they are adapting. Pretty cool if you ask me

This is exactly why I limited the native range so much, to only well-documented historical populations. A lot of these other populations are simply escapees from cultivation for the most part. These volunteers do pretty well in the relative warm spell we're going through, but it's only some time before some crazy freeze we haven't ever seen wipes them all out. That's why you don't see any native Royal groves further north.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Ubuntwo

[PalmTreeDude]

Since the species seems to be adapting a bit, won't they also likely get a bit cold hardier over time? 

Edited February 24, 2019 by PalmTreeDude

[Ubuntwo]

4 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Since the species seems to be adapting a bit, won't they also likely get a bit cold hardier over time? 

It could be possible, but increases in cold hardiness naturally usually take hundreds or thousands of years. What's more likely is that someone creates a breed or cultivar which is hardier. This might then become common in cultivation and spread as volunteers into surrounding areas from there.

[PalmTreeDude]

13 minutes ago, Ubuntwo said:

It could be possible, but increases in cold hardiness naturally usually take hundreds or thousands of years. What's more likely is that someone creates a breed or cultivar which is hardier. This might then become common in cultivation and spread as volunteers into surrounding areas from there.

That makes more sense. I saw these a long time ago on Google Maps in extreme Southwest Florida, these can't be royals, can they? They are by salt water and the area probably gets lots of salt spray. These are right on the beach, I have always wondered what these were, in one of the screenshots it is obvious that they are pinnate palms. Possibly coconuts? 

Edited February 24, 2019 by PalmTreeDude

[Ubuntwo]

2 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

That makes more sense. I saw these a long time ago on Google Maps in extreme Southwest Florida, this can't be royals, can they? It is bu salt water and the area probably gets lots of salt spray. This is right on the beach, I have always wondered what these were, in one of the screenshots it is obvious that it is a pinnate palm. 

I have a legitimate explanation for this one! This stumped me for a while, and after some in-depth research, I found the answer. Cape Sable, that region of the Everglades, used to be a coconut palm plantation. Of course since the mid 20th century it has been abandoned but many of the coconut palms continued to propagate and spread and they have since colonized the region.

[PalmTreeDude]

Just now, Ubuntwo said:

I have a legitimate explanation for this one! This stumped me for a while, and after some in-depth research, I found the answer. Cape Sable, that region of the Everglades, used to be a coconut palm plantation. Of course since the mid 20th century it has been abandoned but many of the coconut palms continued to propagate and spread and they have since colonized the region.

Ah! It makes sense now. I remeber seeing these a while back and always wondered exactly what they were, thank you for that answer! 

[RedRabbit]

42 minutes ago, Ubuntwo said:

I have a legitimate explanation for this one! This stumped me for a while, and after some in-depth research, I found the answer. Cape Sable, that region of the Everglades, used to be a coconut palm plantation. Of course since the mid 20th century it has been abandoned but many of the coconut palms continued to propagate and spread and they have since colonized the region.

Your knowledge of palms in Florida is impressive! 

[kurt decker]

Here's a file of information including photographs of the mid 20th century coconuts on Cape Sable. http://dpanther.fiu.edu/sobek/CM00500004/00001