watering newly planted palm trees in clay soil

[dmalysh]

I have 3 windmill palm trees. 3 weeks ago I planted them a few inches above ground level to improve drainage, amended backfill soil with gypsum, added sulfur(to reduce the high alkalinity of soil), threw some organic compost on top and covered the root area with a think layer of mulch. Ever since I planted the trachys, I watered them just a few times with some Superthrive added.

Everywhere I read about watering newly planted trees, they say water it every day during the first week, then every other day during the second week, etc etc etc.. If I do so, I think I will drawn my palm trees! I have a soil moisture meter and the ground in the root area as well as around it is always very wet! It never dries at least a little bit, so I am wondering if I made a mistake when watered them those few times? I  know that clay holds moisture very well, a thick layer of mulch helps keep the soil cool and moist as well. The weather has been rather cloudy and cool here in the Houston Texas area. It is finally clearing up and getting warm today.. But my palm trees.. they look sad and wilted. I guess it is transplant shock.. but still, Is there anything I can do to help them recover? Should I just leave them alone and wait till the ground gets somewhat dry and only then resume watering? I'm too new to this, please help!

[Jeff985]

I know what you mean. I deal with the same issue. I would go off of what the moisture meter says. 

[kinzyjr]

@dmalysh If it hasn't been particularly warm and sunny, it may help to back off the watering.  Your soil likely holds water a lot better than ours in Central FL.  If the palms were just planted and grown in part shade, it also may help them acclimate if you provide dappled light for them for a little while using shade cloth.  I notice sunburn on a lot of my nursery-bought palms if I move them to full sun too quickly after transplanting.

Welcome to PalmTalk and good luck with your new plantings!

[Xenon]

Nice palms but curious as to why you picked windmills, they really don't do all that well in the area (especially in full sun).  Too hot and humid.  There's a reason you don't see them used much around Houston.  I would replace them with the similar looking Chinese fan palm, Livistona chinensis, which grows very well around here, is readily available and is much more attractive imo. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Xenon

[dmalysh]

 I bought 2 of these palm trees in October last year and they were growing in pots in full sun until I finally planted them. But still, it is a good idea to provide some shade to reduce stress while they are establishing. Will definitely do that! Thanks!

[dmalysh]

21 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I know what you mean. I deal with the same issue. I would go off of what the moisture meter says. 

Thanks for the advice. But I still don't get how much water is good? Do you have any idea of how many gallons of water I should give to each tree at a time? Measuring it in Inches just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Jeff985]

If they were growing in pots and not field dug, I would stop watering them. I planted one last year and watered it twice a week and it died. I planted another one and watered it for the first week then have only watered it when fertilizing and it’s doing well. 

[dmalysh]

5 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

If they were growing in pots and not field dug, I would stop watering them. I planted one last year and watered it twice a week and it died. I planted another one and watered it for the first week then have only watered it when fertilizing and it’s doing well. 

Oh, wow! Yes, I bought them in pots at Garden center last fall.

Sounds like this is what I should do - just leave them alone! Got it! Thanks!

[Fusca]

Welcome to the forum Dina

I echo Jonathan's comments ( @Xenon ) and Jeff's advice.  I lived in Cypress/Spring so I understand your growing conditions.  I bought a similar sized windmill (Trachycarpus fortunei) palm and it died from afternoon sun exposure which is brutal here.   The best looking windmill palms that I have seen in Texas have been grown in mostly shade and I haven't seen too many of them.  I had best success using drip irrigation when I had hard clay in the garden.  When I watered by hand in the hot dry summer, the water would just run off.  Your high planting idea is good but be aware that if that area is low-lying your palms will be sitting in water at the bottom of the hole for a long time after hard rains.  Hopefully your fence and neighbors' houses will provide some late afternoon shade for them. 

[dmalysh]

52 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Nice palms but curious as to why you picked windmills, they really don't do all that well in the area (especially in full sun).  Too hot and humid.  There's a reason you don't see them used much around Houston.  I would replace them with the similar looking Chinese fan palm, Livistona chinensis, which grows very well around here, is readily available and is much more attractive imo. 

Yes, Chinese fan palms look very pretty, but aren't they growing to be tall and their fronds huge? I wanted something smaller for my backyard. But yeah, I don't see trachys around here at all.. Guess, I made a mistake... and if the ones I already planted die, I will consider the palm trees that are more appropriate for this hot and humid climate.

Thanks for pointing that out! 

[dmalysh]

12 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Welcome to the forum Dina

I echo Jonathan's comments ( @Xenon ) and Jeff's advice.  I lived in Cypress/Spring so I understand your growing conditions.  I bought a similar sized windmill (Trachycarpus fortunei) palm and it died from afternoon sun exposure which is brutal here.   The best looking windmill palms that I have seen in Texas have been grown in mostly shade and I haven't seen too many of them.  I had best success using drip irrigation when I had hard clay in the garden.  When I watered by hand in the hot dry summer, the water would just run off.  Your high planting idea is good but be aware that if that area is low-lying your palms will be sitting in water at the bottom of the hole for a long time after hard rains.  Hopefully your fence and neighbors' houses will provide some late afternoon shade for them. 

There is absolutely no morning/afternoon shade in my backyard and the area is pretty high so the drainage shouldn't be that bad. So yeah, guess I will see them die when the heat hits us again this summer. 

So what would you recommend to plant instead of them? I really don't want anything that would grow huge and tall in my backyard that is on the smaller side.

 

[Jeff985]

I’ve seen several of them around here growing in full sun. They are more attractive in the shade. Their fronds seem longer when shade grown. But there are several on Fry Rd. just north of I-10 that are in full sun that look pretty good. There is another one in front of a gas station at Mason and Franz in Katy that looks pretty good. As far as other opinions, there are a lot of possibilities. Chinese fans are nice but they grow slowly. I like queens. Pygmies are also good but sometimes require protection in winter. Sabals are bulletproof but not something you can pick up for $30 like the small windmills. It all depends on what size you want and your price range. I wouldn’t worry too much about your windmills though. I think they’ll be okay. 

[dmalysh]

1 minute ago, Jeff985 said:

I’ve seen several of them around here growing in full sun. They are more attractive in the shade. Their fronds seem longer when shade grown. But there are several on Fry Rd. just north of I-10 that are in full sun that look pretty good. There is another one in front of a gas station at Mason and Franz in Katy that looks pretty good. As far as other opinions, there are a lot of possibilities. Chinese fans are nice but they grow slowly. I like queens. Pygmies are also good but sometimes require protection in winter. Sabals are bulletproof but not something you can pick up for $30 like the small windmills. It all depends on what size you want and your price range. I wouldn’t worry too much about your windmills though. I think they’ll be okay. 

Thanks giving me hope.

I live just West of Katy mills mall, and I am very familiar with the area you mentioned. I drove past Mason and Franz Rd intersection yesterday and didn't see any trachy.. just wasn't paying attention, I guess, but now that you told me about it, I will.

I have seen just a few of such trees in Katy, South of I-10 here and there, but I must admit, they are not popular here at all.. Obviously, for a good reason.

Well, my trachys are already in the ground and let's see what happens. I'm too new to all this, so probably I will kill a forest before I learn how to take care of the trees properly :-/ fingers crossed!

[PalmatierMeg]

If your Trachies don't survive (I can't grow them here in SWFL), you might consider trying Chamaerops humilis (European Fan Palm). I see you don't want tall palms and Chamaerops don't get exceptionally tall, are slow growing and should be cold hardy in your area. This species is usually a clumper although there is a rare solitary form. It also comes in a number of variations, including silver leaves (argentea/cerifera) and a dwarf vulcano form with small leaves and short petioles. You should be able to find good-sized specimens in local nurseries.

Welcome to PalmTalk.

[dmalysh]

1 minute ago, PalmatierMeg said:

If your Trachies don't survive (I can't grow them here in SWFL), you might consider trying Chamaerops humilis (European Fan Palm). I see you don't want tall palms and Chamaerops don't get exceptionally tall, are slow growing and should be cold hardy in your area. This species is usually a clumper although there is a rare solitary form. It also comes in a number of variations, including silver leaves (argentea/cerifera) and a dwarf vulcano form with small leaves and short petioles. You should be able to find good-sized specimens in local nurseries.

Welcome to PalmTalk.

Thanks so much for the advice! Much appreciated!

[Xenon]

50 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I’ve seen several of them around here growing in full sun. They are more attractive in the shade. Their fronds seem longer when shade grown. But there are several on Fry Rd. just north of I-10 that are in full sun that look pretty good. There is another one in front of a gas station at Mason and Franz in Katy that looks pretty good. As far as other opinions, there are a lot of possibilities. Chinese fans are nice but they grow slowly. I like queens. Pygmies are also good but sometimes require protection in winter. Sabals are bulletproof but not something you can pick up for $30 like the small windmills. It all depends on what size you want and your price range. I wouldn’t worry too much about your windmills though. I think they’ll be okay. 

Haha, you basically just described my exact location. Still don't think they look "good" (i.e small stunted crown and skinny trunk). I wouldn't plant queens outside of Beltway 8 and/or north of I-10 (approximately), they're liable to die when northern/western Houston gets into the teens (has happened several times in last 2-3 decades).  Probably half or more of the queens in my area died in the freeze two years ago, 2010 and 2011 also killed many. Towards 99 and west, survival is probably near zero. The long-term (15-20 years) pygmy dates are usually only found within 610 and south/southeast of town towards the coast.  

Chinese fan takes a long time to get tall. Rarely see one with more than 20 feet of trunk in the area, nothing like Mexican fan palms (Washingtonia robusta).  

[dmalysh]

35 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Haha, you basically just described my exact location. Still don't think they look "good" (i.e small stunted crown and skinny trunk). I wouldn't plant queens outside of Beltway 8 and/or north of I-10 (approximately), they're liable to die when northern/western Houston gets into the teens (has happened several times in last 2-3 decades).  Probably half or more of the queens in my area died in the freeze two years ago, 2010 and 2011 also killed many. Towards 99 and west, survival is probably near zero. The long-term (15-20 years) pygmy dates are usually only found within 610 and south/southeast of town towards the coast.  

Chinese fan takes a long time to get tall. Rarely see one with more than 20 feet of trunk in the area, nothing like Mexican fan palms (Washingtonia robusta).  

Can you guys educate and correct me if I'm wrong on this: I think Mexican fan palms are the most popular in our area.. and they get Very tall, right? I am here outside and saw this palm tree right across the street. That's a Mexican one, right?(see photo attached) They resemble Chinese fan palms so much.. I don't think I can distinguish one from another.. 

Queen, Majesty, Phoenix Sylvester, Mexican, etc palm trees are gorgeous but waaay too big for my backyard. I'm planning on sticking a pool in between the palm trees and the house, so I definitely need something appropriate size wise. Pigmy date palms, European fan palms are pretty, but grow in clumps... I wonder if I just could separate them and grow as a sole standing palm trees? Windmills still seem to be the right size for me. Maybe not as pretty, but they won't grow into the tall fat trunks over the years.

Edited March 20, 2019 by dmalysh
Mistake

[Jeff985]

That’s a Washingtonia Robusta aka Mexican fan palm. They grow much faster and taller than the Chinese fan and aren’t nearly as attractive in my opinion. Here’s the one on Mason. It looked much better before they over trimmed it recently. 

[dmalysh]

That's one pretty Windmill palm tree that looks good growing in a full Sun location!

I guess I should stop babying(read-watering) mine and let them be.

Thanks for the picture!

Edited March 20, 2019 by dmalysh

[Cikas]

Trachycarpus likes water and rich soil. They do not mind clay. The hoter the temperatures are, and the more sun they get, the more water they need. They grow the best near ponds, water streams ect.. Most of the wild Trachycarpus species actually grow in humid climates in their native habbitat. They are not desert palms. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Cikas

[dmalysh]

3 minutes ago, Cikas said:

Trachycarpus likes water and rich soil. They do not mind clay. The hoter the temperatures are, and the more sun they get, the more water they need. They grow the best near ponds, water streams ect.. Most of the wild Trachycarpus species actually grow in humid climates in their native habbitat. They are not desert palms. 

Aww.. that sounds very encouraging! I live right next to a pond! Yay!

I can't wait to see when the soil around these palm trees dries at least a little bit! It just does not seem to going to happen anytime soon. Lol Clay, oh clay..

 

[Tropicdoc]

I have trachycarpus martianus in full shade and it’s beautiful imo. More exotic hybrids like butia x lytocaryum would be great for your yard or Phoenix roebellini (if it dies just plant again.) Possibly common mule (butyagrus) but they get pretty big. For fan palms I agree sabal or livistona for your yard and climate 

[dmalysh]

1 minute ago, Tropicdoc said:

 

I don't think I have seen any trachycarpus martianus for sale at a local garden center.  I had to Google to see what it looks like.  Probably the area where I live is not suitable for them? Never did I see butia x lytocaryum anywhere.. It looks big though.. and the pigmy date palms.. I like the look, but I am not a fan of palms growing in clumps. But it is definitely something to consider, in case my trachies give up on me.

[Tropicdoc]

Yeah i was just throwing stuff out there. If I’m not mistaken Phoenix roebellini is a solitary palm that nurseries plant in multiples on purpose. 

[Tropicdoc]

And I’m not saying to dig up the trachies they’ll do fine just giving you food for thought

[Jeff985]

8 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

Yeah i was just throwing stuff out there. If I’m not mistaken Phoenix roebellini is a solitary palm that nurseries plant in multiples on purpose. 

I have six roebeleniis. Two of them are single trunks. I actually prefer them as singles. They are a little cold sensitive but they are small enough they are easy to protect, which doesn’t have to be done very often. I live in the colder, western part of the Houston area and I didn’t have to protect mine at all this year. Last year however would have killed them without protection. 

[dmalysh]

12 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

And I’m not saying to dig up the trachies they’ll do fine just giving you food for thought

Thanks for the ideas! I really appreciate it!

[NOT A TA]

I've bought pots with multiple juvenile roebeleniis and separated them to get single plants. I wouldn't try putting them out in sun until they have time to rebound in shade first though. So you'd need to repot them after purchase, keep in shade, then slowly increase sun till full sun, then plant in ground.

[Estlander]

I agree with PalmatierMeg that you should go with the Euro Fan palm, especially the single trunk ones. I have three singles in my yard. 

They can be hard to find but if if you go to a nursery that sells them, I’m sure you’ll be able to find them. Also check the big box stores. I found one there as well and bought it. 

[dmalysh]

54 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I have six roebeleniis. Two of them are single trunks. I actually prefer them as singles. They are a little cold sensitive but they are small enough they are easy to protect, which doesn’t have to be done very often. I live in the colder, western part of the Houston area and I didn’t have to protect mine at all this year. Last year however would have killed them without protection. 

Do you have a picture of your roebeliniis? I did not realize they could be separated.. I Googled the photos of that palm tree and the more I look at it, the more I like it! I might find some room for those in my backyard as well! (I hope not cuz this is even more work, but never say never lol) 

[Estlander]

Here’s my other one. 

[Xenon]

4 hours ago, Jeff985 said:

I’ve seen several of them around here growing in full sun. They are more attractive in the shade. Their fronds seem longer when shade grown. But there are several on Fry Rd. just north of I-10 that are in full sun that look pretty good. There is another one in front of a gas station at Mason and Franz in Katy that looks pretty good. As far as other opinions, there are a lot of possibilities. Chinese fans are nice but they grow slowly. I like queens. Pygmies are also good but sometimes require protection in winter. Sabals are bulletproof but not something you can pick up for $30 like the small windmills. It all depends on what size you want and your price range. I wouldn’t worry too much about your windmills though. I think they’ll be okay. 

Off topic, but have you seen the Bismarckia on the frontage at S. Fry and I-10 (at the Valero)? It's been there since at least 2008; amazing that it's still alive.  Finally starting to look half decent too. An apartment complex at I-10 and 99 installed a bunch last year. Would be nice to see more of them around here. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Xenon

[Xenon]

Here's an example of Livistona chinensis growing in full Texas sun:  Chinese fan palm

[dmalysh]

4 minutes ago, Estlander said:

I agree with PalmatierMeg that you should go with the Euro Fan palm, especially the single trunk ones. I have three singles in my yard. 

They can be hard to find but if if you go to a nursery that sells them, I’m sure you’ll be able to find them. Also check the big box stores. I found one there as well and bought it. 

It looks pretty. I think such palms are sold at my local nursery stores.  I can't recall why I didn't go for it, though. Anyway, it is definitely a good option! Thank you!

[Jeff985]

7 minutes ago, dmalysh said:

Do you have a picture of your roebeliniis? I did not realize they could be separated.. I Googled the photos of that palm tree and the more I look at it, the more I like it! I might find some room for those in my backyard as well! (I hope not cuz this is even more work, but never say never lol) 

This is the only picture I have of one of my singles. It received no protection this winter. 

[Jeff985]

6 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Off topic, but have you seen the Bismarckia on the frontage at S. Fry and I-10 (at the Valero)? It's been there since at least 2008; amazing that it's still alive.  Finally starting to look half decent too. An apartment complex at I-10 and 99 installed a bunch last year. Would be nice to see more of them around here. 

I agree. I used to think those were hideous, but they have really grown on me. Now I want one but I’m out of room. 

[dmalysh]

4 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Here's an example of Livistona chinensis growing in full Texas sun:  Chinese fan palm

Haha.. why does it look like a hairy ball on a stick to me?

[Jeff985]

4 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I agree. I used to think those were hideous, but they have really grown on me. Now I want one but I’m out of room. 

And yes I have seen the bizzie at i10 and Fry. I go to the Lowe’s next to it all the time. It is starting to look good again. Who would have thought a thread about windmills in Houston would have gotten this kind of response. 

[dmalysh]

5 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I agree. I used to think those were hideous, but they have really grown on me. Now I want one but I’m out of room. 

 

8 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

This is the only picture I have of one of my singles. It received no protection this winter. 

 

Sweet! It looks much better that way! 

[dmalysh]

2 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

And yes I have seen the bizzie at i10 and Fry. I go to the Lowe’s next to it all the time. It is starting to look good again. Who would have thought a thread about windmills in Houston would have gotten this kind of response. 

Are y'all talking about those couple of palm trees that grow in the middle of the parking lot and there is one growing right next to a traffic light? They are gorgeous, but seem to be totally out of place.