Sabal palmetto vs birmingham hardiness

[Ben G.]

I thought this was a pretty good testament to the difference in hardiness between sabal palmetto and  birmingham sabals. I don't think we got below 10F to 12F at my house this winter, though we did have a spell or two where we went between 2 to 3 days without getting above freezing. We had a few small snow events, none more than about 1.5" at a time. The birmingham is in the SW corner of an L-shaped bed on the south and west sides of my garage. Both are shielded from north winds by the house.  
Here is the difference between the two at my house given the above winter conditions: 
 

[Ben G.]

Birmingham:

 

[Ben G.]

And about 5 feet away, in a more protected spot, here is the palmetto. I is at least pushing a new spear though.

 

[Ben G.]

That palmetto is sheltered by the garage on the east, the house on the north, and is almost completely covered overhead. The birmingham performed pretty admirably, I'd say. 
 
As a side note this  birmingham was sprouted from the very last seed batch from the notorious Tulsa birmingham. Of the seed the owner gave me (several years after his died), it was the only one that sprouted for me.

[RaleighNC]

That is a great comparison.  I hope your S. palmetto pulls through.

[mdsonofthesouth]

That palmetto looks to be toast much like some of my palms. Hopefully it pulls through.

[Allen]

I would have thought both would take 5F at that size.   Cold hardiness is such a tricky thing.  Larger I would have thought the palmetto would take 10F and the Birmingham 0-5F.

[Ben G.]

3 hours ago, RaleighNC said:

That is a great comparison.  I hope your S. palmetto pulls through.

I'm sure it will. I just have to decide whether I want the most protected spot in my landscape for a palm that burns as easily as this one did. I've seen palmettos in Oklahoma live for more than 10 years in less protected spots than this one. Even if they get burned a lot, our warm season is long enough they usually recover well until they get some trunk on them. Once that growing point is above ground, they are on borrowed time around here. The biggest I've seen here had about 2 ft of trunk before we had a bad year that killed them.

[Ben G.]

42 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

That palmetto looks to be toast much like some of my palms. Hopefully it pulls through.

I'm sorry you all had a tough winter on the east coast this year. Our winter started earlier than usual this year, but it was pretty average cold temps for us. Although it was a wet winter overall, we were fortunate that it was almost always above freezing when the precipitation came. So not much snow here.

[Ben G.]

38 minutes ago, Allen said:

I would have thought both would take 5F at that size.   Cold hardiness is such a tricky thing.  Larger I would have thought the palmetto would take 10F and the Birmingham 0-5F.

With our low temps, and it's protected location, I would have thought it wouldn't be so damaged either. But as you say, hardiness can be unpredictable. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Seems like S.Birmingham is a special palm for the colder hardiness zones I'm wanting to try one cause it should be bullet proof in my locale

[Ben G.]

8 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Seems like S.Birmingham is a special palm for the colder hardiness zones I'm wanting to try one cause it should be bullet proof in my locale

In the Houston area, I can't imagine a S. birmingham taking any damage at all anywhere in the Houston metro area. Then again Sabal mexicana or palmetto would probably never get burned there either.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Houston's record low temperate isn't enough to burn palmetto, and may only mildly burn a few Mexicana.

[Ben G.]

Quick update two months later. Palmetto:

[Ben G.]

Birmingham Sabal:

[Ben G.]

Palmetto is less Hardy, but definitely the faster grower.

[GottmitAlex]

9 hours ago, Ben OK said:

Palmetto is less Hardy, but definitely the faster grower.

Just as a coconut and a B. alfredii.

 

[palmsOrl]

Good luck with your palms.  Hopefully at least the Birmingham will put on some good growth in the summer heat.

Speaking of Sabal palmetto cold hardiness, I have long wondered why this species is not native to much of the inland Florida Panhandle.  It is clearly hardy enough to survive outside of perhaps 100 year cold events (-2F-5F, possibly colder unofficially in some areas) and I believe Bald Head Island extreme all-time lows are at least this cold and they are native there.  Sabal palmetto is fairly frequently planted in the Fl Panhandle.  

[Ben G.]

Another update on these two palms after another Oklahoma winter. Our lowest lows this year never went below About 12F to 14F at our rural home. Not a lot of snow or ice, though we had just a bit of both. Neither palm was damaged much this year, though the palmetto has some spots on the fronds.

 

[DJU4ic]

On 5/19/2020 at 9:35 PM, Ben OK said:

Another update on these two palms after another Oklahoma winter. Our lowest lows this year never went below About 12F to 14F at our rural home. Not a lot of snow or ice, though we had just a bit of both. Neither palm was damaged much this year, though the palmetto has some spots on the fronds.

Did these palms make it through the last big freeze of 2021?

 

[teddytn]

@Ben OK how’s the palmetto and Birmingham doing?

[Ben G.]

On 8/7/2021 at 2:08 PM, teddytn said:

@Ben OK how’s the palmetto and Birmingham doing?

If I were observant at all I would have seen your reply a long time ago. The palmetto and both birminghams all survived our -14F freeze in Feb 2021 covered but without supplemental heat. Then last winter only had an absolute low of 11F, but we had 5 different snow and ice events. It was a wet winter so every time we dropped below twenty it seemed to be proceeded by heavy rain. I lost several newer needle palms and I had to trunk cut a waggie (I covered them all probably a dozen times through the winter) I was so busy covering everything else I decided that sabals were not going to get covered. They did fine but they look a little ratty after all that snow and ice:

[Ben G.]

Bigger Birmingham: 

 

 

 

 

[Ben G.]

Smaller birmingham:

 

[Ben G.]

Palmetto took more damage but grows faster. Highest frond is about 5'9" now.

 

[teddytn]

42 minutes ago, Ben OK said:

If I were observant at all I would have seen your reply a long time ago. The palmetto and both birminghams all survived our -14F freeze in Feb 2021 covered but without supplemental heat. Then last winter only had an absolute low of 11F, but we had 5 different snow and ice events. It was a wet winter so every time we dropped below twenty it seemed to be proceeded by heavy rain. I lost several newer needle palms and I had to trunk cut a waggie (I covered them all probably a dozen times through the winter) I was so busy covering everything else I decided that sabals were not going to get covered. They did fine but they look a little ratty after all that snow and ice:

All good, me just being curious. Everything looks great. Me thinking about -14f 🥶 crazy, not good palm growing temps. Hope you don’t see that low again

[WSimpson]

From my experience Birminghams are definitely more hardy than Palmettos . When I had 4F and 5F here  a number of years ago  I had no protection on my Birminghams and they did  have   some frond damage . My HC Palmetto's trunks were protected by my Xmas light and blanket method and had  worse frond damage .

But the real experience I had was in 2018 when I had 8 days below 32F and my Palmettos , even though fully mature , flowering , seeding , and adding trunk , they  kicked the bucket . 

The problem was the duration . They say Palmettos are hardy to 7F , and I think my lowest Low was  only 8F here during that 8 Day period ,  but it hit 8F two times and I had Highs in the 20's some days . So I was under the assumption that I was OK because the Lows were only 8F a couple times . I don't know how close my Palmettos were  to surviving that period ,  but in the spring I saw oozing juice from one trunk and the other trunk just never showed any  signs of life . Eventually in April I started surgery and both were goners . 

My unprotected Birminghams had only frond damage at the end of that period . The only consolation is that Gary of Gary's Nursery said it was a 100 year kind of cold snap , so hopefully I won't need to experience that kind of cold again . I did have 1 palmetto survive that cold snap ; my Tifton Hardy . 

I could've thrown some Xmas lights and wrapped those Palmetto trunks but I was too much thinking how I was OK because the Lows were not below 7F , but don't think that way because of  COLD  DURATION  , that I believe Birminghams are way better at handling . 

Will

 

Before , and flowering and trunking . I hated to lose those babies .

AFTER the 2018 winter  ; notice the Birmingham looking fairly green to the left of that Palmetto on the left .

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Will Simpson

[RJ]

3 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

From my experience Birminghams are definitely more hardy than Palmettos . When I had 4F and 5F here  a number of years ago  I had no protection on my Birminghams and they did  have   some frond damage . My HC Palmetto's trunks were protected by my Xmas light and blanket method and had  worse frond damage .

But the real experience I had was in 2018 when I had 8 days below 32F and my Palmettos , even though fully mature , flowering , seeding , and adding trunk , they  kicked the bucket . 

The problem was the duration . They say Palmettos are hardy to 7F , and I think my lowest Low was  only 8F here during that 8 Day period ,  but it hit 8F two times and I had Highs in the 20's some days . So I was under the assumption that I was OK because the Lows were only 8F a couple times . I don't know how close my Palmettos were  to surviving that period ,  but in the spring I saw oozing juice from one trunk and the other trunk just never showed any  signs of life . Eventually in April I started surgery and both were goners . 

My unprotected Birminghams had only frond damage at the end of that period . The only consolation is that Gary of Gary's Nursery said it was a 100 year kind of cold snap , so hopefully I won't need to experience that kind of cold again . I did have 1 palmetto survive that cold snap ; my Tifton Hardy . 

I could've thrown some Xmas lights and wrapped those Palmetto trunks but I was too much thinking how I was OK because the Lows were not below 7F , but don't think that way because of  COLD  DURATION  , that I believe Birminghams are way better at handling . 

Will

 

Before , and flowering and trunking . I hated to lose those babies .

 

AFTER the 2018 winter  ; notice the Birmingham looking fairly green to the left of that Palmetto on the left .

 

 

Gary lost some of his Birm’s didn’t he during that cold snap?

[WSimpson]

4 minutes ago, RJ said:

Gary lost some of his Birm’s didn’t he during that cold snap?

I think he lost some Palmettos but I didn't hear about him losing any Birminghams . I need to visit him  or call him up about that  . He probably has bigger Birmys than mine  ( and his biggest definitely has a pretty tall trunk )  so with larger Birmys their trunk and bud area is more exposed to cold . I would like to know if his biggest Birmy survived that 2018 cold snap . 

Normally I'm colder than New Bern , NC , where Gary lives , but during that 2018 cold snap I checked his temperatures there  and our temperatures were almost the same , with New Bern having lower Lows than me  .I think New Bern got down to 6F during that cold snap and I got down to 7-8F as my lowest temperature  . 

Thanks for mentioning about his Birmys . I'm curious too , especially about his biggest Birmy .

Will

[Allen]

20 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

I think he lost some Palmettos but I didn't hear about him losing any Birminghams . I need to visit him  or call him up about that  . He probably has bigger Birmys than mine  ( and his biggest definitely has a pretty tall trunk )  so with larger Birmys their trunk and bud area is more exposed to cold . I would like to know if his biggest Birmy survived that 2018 cold snap . 

Normally I'm colder than New Bern , NC , where Gary lives , but during that 2018 cold snap I checked his temperatures there  and our temperatures were almost the same , with New Bern having lower Lows than me  .I think New Bern got down to 6F during that cold snap and I got down to 7-8F as my lowest temperature  . 

Thanks for mentioning about his Birmys . I'm curious too , especially about his biggest Birmy .

Will

I emailed the county extension director in 2019 and discussed the cold damage there because he was into palms and he said a lot of palmetto died, many Trachy lived, minor and needle mostly unfazed.  

https://craven.ces.ncsu.edu/2018/02/winter-damage-to-palms-2018/

[teddytn]

I was at Gary’s place last November, I didn’t see his big birmy which I think is closer to his house? But at the nursery he specifically pointed out two 30-40 foot monster palmettos that he started from seed ( which is crazy by itself ) that are right next to/ partially canopied over by some taller pines. Gary said he thinks those pines have helped the palmettos during the cold snaps over the years.

Also driving that way from the west. The first palmettos I saw were in Kinston by the road at a gas station out in the open. Gary said those have been there since the early 80’s so they’ve weathered whatever storms Kinston has seen over the years and they looked real good, big full crowns on them. 

[WSimpson]

1 hour ago, teddytn said:

I was at Gary’s place last November, I didn’t see his big birmy which I think is closer to his house? But at the nursery he specifically pointed out two 30-40 foot monster palmettos that he started from seed ( which is crazy by itself ) that are right next to/ partially canopied over by some taller pines. Gary said he thinks those pines have helped the palmettos during the cold snaps over the years.

Also driving that way from the west. The first palmettos I saw were in Kinston by the road at a gas station out in the open. Gary said those have been there since the early 80’s so they’ve weathered whatever storms Kinston has seen over the years and they looked real good, big full crowns on them. 

 

Was this the gas station . I saw it close to New Bern . Gary's Birmingham in February 2012 in the second picture below  . 

 

 

Here is Gary's Birmingham  in February 2012 :

 

 

 

 

[teddytn]

@Will Simpsonno can’t be the ones. These 2 had slick trunks and just had that old weathered look to them. 
That’s an insane picture of a Birmingham, I definitely underestimated the size of a mature birmy. Crazy something so cool, is so cold hardy

[Allen]

 

WARNING Graphic video Below.  Not suitable for all Palm lovers. 

8 hours ago, RJ said:

Gary lost some of his Birm’s didn’t he during that cold snap?

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Allen

[WSimpson]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

 

WARNING Graphic video Below.  Not suitable for all Palm lovers. 

My Trachys did a lot better than his did . Mine stayed mainly  green but the leaflets shriveled  up a lot . I'd like to see how everything came back or didn't . It was a strange cold snap since I was a little milder than there , and I'm usually colder than the low elevation  parts of the state . I wish he had showed that big Birmy . Mine had frond damage but stayed mainly green . I'd like to see how those Butias did too . My big Butia was  not protected except for its  great microclimate and it looks great  . 

Thanks for showing that video . 

He really got whacked . 

 

 

[Ben G.]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:59 AM, Will Simpson said:

From my experience Birminghams are definitely more hardy than Palmettos . When I had 4F and 5F here  a number of years ago  I had no protection on my Birminghams and they did  have   some frond damage . My HC Palmetto's trunks were protected by my Xmas light and blanket method and had  worse frond damage .

But the real experience I had was in 2018 when I had 8 days below 32F and my Palmettos , even though fully mature , flowering , seeding , and adding trunk , they  kicked the bucket . 

The problem was the duration . They say Palmettos are hardy to 7F , and I think my lowest Low was  only 8F here during that 8 Day period ,  but it hit 8F two times and I had Highs in the 20's some days . So I was under the assumption that I was OK because the Lows were only 8F a couple times . I don't know how close my Palmettos were  to surviving that period ,  but in the spring I saw oozing juice from one trunk and the other trunk just never showed any  signs of life . Eventually in April I started surgery and both were goners . 

My unprotected Birminghams had only frond damage at the end of that period . The only consolation is that Gary of Gary's Nursery said it was a 100 year kind of cold snap , so hopefully I won't need to experience that kind of cold again . I did have 1 palmetto survive that cold snap ; my Tifton Hardy . 

I could've thrown some Xmas lights and wrapped those Palmetto trunks but I was too much thinking how I was OK because the Lows were not below 7F , but don't think that way because of  COLD  DURATION  , that I believe Birminghams are way better at handling . 

Will

 

Before , and flowering and trunking . I hated to lose those babies .

AFTER the 2018 winter  ; notice the Birmingham looking fairly green to the left of that Palmetto on the left .

 

I'm sorry you lost those palmettos Will. You are probably right in guessing that duration of cold and other factors played a role in their demise. I spoke to the owner of the famous Tulsa birmingham years ago, and it bit the dust in a similar fashion. When a cold snap was approaching, he decided not to add any protection because the palm had survived similar conditions multiple times previously. The palm was close to the south wall of his home and had gotten so large that its crown was at roof level. That particular cold event packed quite a bit of snow. Instead of being sheltered from the worst of wind and snow on the south wall, it had grown tall enough that snow was pouring from the roof directly into the crown. So although the temperature and cold duration weren't especially bad, the amount of ice in the crown broke the camel's back. So when I visited his home about a year later, all I got to see was the roughly six feet of trunk that was left. It was sad for sure. 

I hope your last palmetto hangs on through many winters to come.

[knikfar]

Here in Raleigh, there are a few regular palmetto around but not many. The birminghams are much for common. Many of those have been in the ground here for 40 years or so with no winter protection at all. I'm not even aware of any that died in 2018 when we had a low of 4f. 

[WSimpson]

On 9/4/2022 at 12:22 AM, Ben OK said:

I'm sorry you lost those palmettos Will. You are probably right in guessing that duration of cold and other factors played a role in their demise. I spoke to the owner of the famous Tulsa birmingham years ago, and it bit the dust in a similar fashion. When a cold snap was approaching, he decided not to add any protection because the palm had survived similar conditions multiple times previously. The palm was close to the south wall of his home and had gotten so large that its crown was at roof level. That particular cold event packed quite a bit of snow. Instead of being sheltered from the worst of wind and snow on the south wall, it had grown tall enough that snow was pouring from the roof directly into the crown. So although the temperature and cold duration weren't especially bad, the amount of ice in the crown broke the camel's back. So when I visited his home about a year later, all I got to see was the roughly six feet of trunk that was left. It was sad for sure. 

I hope your last palmetto hangs on through many winters to come.

My big Butia handled the 2018 without protection . It's in such a good microclimate that it probably thawed out most of those days that had Highs in upper 20'sF-30F . Amazing it survived and my Palmettos bit the dust .

Will

[knikfar]

On 9/10/2022 at 6:30 PM, Will Simpson said:

My big Butia handled the 2018 without protection . It's in such a good microclimate that it probably thawed out most of those days that had Highs in upper 20'sF-30F . Amazing it survived and my Palmettos bit the dust .

Will

Did you know Gary Hollar had palmettos that survived? And his area had lower temps in 2018 than we did in Raleigh. And I believe our temps in Raleigh were lower than yours. 

[Allen]

3 hours ago, knikfar said:

Did you know Gary Hollar had palmettos that survived? And his area had lower temps in 2018 than we did in Raleigh. And I believe our temps in Raleigh were lower than yours. 

If you go to the video I posted above and go to Gary’s channel he posted a thunderstorm video that shows a couple of his sabal casualties in 2020 still.  It would have been great if he did a video of what survived.   He wrapped his butia