virginia Virginia Palms

[sevapalms]

7 hours ago, JMBreland said:

This paper details the boundaries and characteristics of the North American Southeastern Coastal Plain floristic providence. The map in there more or less follows the same boundaries as the Outer Coastal Plain Mixed Forest Providence (gray region) in the publication you linked to. The northern limit is in NJ according to the forest providence map and the floristic providence extends this northern limit slightly to include long Island, NY.

 Oh, sorry, I probably should’ve looked more carefully at the section I was mentioning. I was mentioning the northern atlantic coastal flatwoods section, which appeared (to me for some reason) to follow along the coast from the Tidewater south into the far south, which it doesn’t. It definitely doesn’t reach as far as Texas or the gulf coast. The name should’ve given it away. Thank you for the correction!

Do you happen to have a map of the southeastern evergreen floristic province, if it isn’t an issue? I just think it’d be interesting.

Edited July 13, 2019 by sevapalms

[SEVA]

Planted some Sabal minor seedlings around one of the live oaks (Quercus virginiana).  Pretty much just look like grass.  There's also some actual grass that needs to be pulled up and will eventually mulch a larger area around it.

[SEVA]

I plan to mulch the longleaf pines and live oaks in the future and would like to add Sabal minor around and/or between them.  I've got plenty of Sabal minor seedlings that need to go in the ground.

[SEVA]

It's getting there.  There's a second on the same palm that's not too far behind.

[mdsonofthesouth]

On 7/13/2019 at 11:39 PM, SEVA said:

I plan to mulch the longleaf pines and live oaks in the future and would like to add Sabal minor around and/or between them.  I've got plenty of Sabal minor seedlings that need to go in the ground.

I want longleaf in my yard so bad. Might try and grab a few if I find a reliable source.

[JMBreland]

On 7/12/2019 at 9:01 PM, sevapalms said:

 Oh, sorry, I probably should’ve looked more carefully at the section I was mentioning. I was mentioning the northern atlantic coastal flatwoods section, which appeared (to me for some reason) to follow along the coast from the Tidewater south into the far south, which it doesn’t. It definitely doesn’t reach as far as Texas or the gulf coast. The name should’ve given it away. Thank you for the correction!

Do you happen to have a map of the southeastern evergreen floristic province, if it isn’t an issue? I just think it’d be interesting.

What happened to the link I thought I included? My apologies. Here it is, the paper I was referencing that has the map of the Southeastern Coastal Plain floristic providence (not evergreen floristic providence).  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ddi.12278

BONAP North America has a number of great illustrative maps showing the extent and density of various groups of plants and relationships of different groups of plants to each other. Here is one for native broadleaf evergreens: 

 

This one illustrates floristic tension zones and relates to our discussion:

[mdsonofthesouth]

Your second picture looks to pretty accurately describe where loblollies end their natural range from my personal experience. Plenty of plantings west of it that endure very well, but no natural stands that I have found as of yet. One of the last stands I have seen is right by my house in the north western part of howard county MD. As stated there are plethora of other "southern" species and ornamental plantings that flourish here as well. So thank you for those maps!

[PalmTreeDude]

Are loblollys like the first true "southern" pine species that is observed growing when going south on the East coast? Here's one of mine that my brother dug from an empty lot when it was a foot tall. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by PalmTreeDude

[mdsonofthesouth]

I'd say the first one would see heading south would be shortleaf. They go into southern Pennsylvania in a few spots and flourish in Appalachia here in MD and South. Then loblollies then longleaf and then slash waaay down. Slash, I believe, are rather hardy but have a similar range to rhapidophyllum hysteria.

Now there is a population of loblollies in far south NJ but they are naturalized from what I have read, but flourishing they are.

Edited July 16, 2019 by mdsonofthesouth

[SEVA]

15 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

I want longleaf in my yard so bad. Might try and grab a few if I find a reliable source.

I ordered mine from VDOF, which I believe were grown from seed collected in Suffolk, VA.  I've seen longleaf available at a few local nurseries, but I wanted to have the genetics of our native longleaf pine since they should perform better and I would like to help preserve the Virginia longleaf.  All of the longleaf pines I have are the same age, but did not grow out of the grass stage at the same age.  Loblolly pines are everywhere here, and I'd prefer to see more longleaf.  It's a shame they are not as prevalent as they used to be.  The one in the photo below has been attacked by sawflies for the past 3 years now and looks a bit rough.

[SEVA]

46 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

I'd say the first one would see heading south would be shortleaf. They go into southern Pennsylvania in a few spots and flourish in Appalachia here in MD and South. Then loblollies then longleaf and then slash waaay down. Slash, I believe, are rather hardy but have a similar range to rhapidophyllum hysteria.

Now there is a population of loblollies in far south NJ but they are naturalized from what I have read, but flourishing they are.

Shortleaf is probably the first southern pine most people see as they head from north to south, but it likely is not as noticeable due to the short needles (maybe I'm just used to seeing the longer-needled southern pines).  Loblolly is likely a bit more noticeable, given its longer needles, and longleaf is certainly an eye-catcher (at least for me).  I've seen a few slash pines planted around here, but not many. 

Loblolly is native to southern NJ.

[sevapalms]

1 hour ago, JMBreland said:

What happened to the link I thought I included? My apologies. Here it is, the paper I was referencing that has the map of the Southeastern Coastal Plain floristic providence (not evergreen floristic providence).  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ddi.12278

BONAP North America has a number of great illustrative maps showing the extent and density of various groups of plants and relationships of different groups of plants to each other. Here is one for native broadleaf evergreens: 

 

This one illustrates floristic tension zones and relates to our discussion:

Thank you! Those maps (and the link) are very interesting and useful.

Edited July 16, 2019 by sevapalms

[mdsonofthesouth]

 

Just now, SEVA said:

Shortleaf is probably the first southern pine most people see as they head from north to south, but it likely is not as noticeable due to the short needles (maybe I'm just used to seeing the longer-needled southern pines).  Loblolly is likely a bit more noticeable, given its longer needles, and longleaf is certainly an eye-catcher (at least for me).  I've seen a few slash pines planted around here, but not many. 

Loblolly is native to southern NJ.

 

Ill try and find where it said it was naturalized to NJ. Eitherway in southern NJ it lives very well! As for Shortleaf being noticeable, Id say its pretty noticeable in southern PA among the meh eastern whites and pitch pines. 

 

12 minutes ago, SEVA said:

I ordered mine from VDOF, which I believe were grown from seed collected in Suffolk, VA.  I've seen longleaf available at a few local nurseries, but I wanted to have the genetics of our native longleaf pine since they should perform better and I would like to help preserve the Virginia longleaf.  All of the longleaf pines I have are the same age, but did not grow out of the grass stage at the same age.  Loblolly pines are everywhere here, and I'd prefer to see more longleaf.  It's a shame they are not as prevalent as they used to be.  The one in the photo below has been attacked by sawflies for the past 3 years now and looks a bit rough.

 

Do you have a link to their site? Id prefer the most local/regional longleaf as well as it would work best here too! I love all the southern yellow pines, but I LOVE the longer needles when the wind blows. 

[SEVA]

21 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Ill try and find where it said it was naturalized to NJ. Eitherway in southern NJ it lives very well! As for Shortleaf being noticeable, Id say its pretty noticeable in southern PA among the meh eastern whites and pitch pines. 

Interesting.  It's been a long time since I've traveled up north.  I just remember the only pines I noticed were the red pines and eastern white pines.  They really caught my eye.  I think the eastern white pines are very beautiful up north and in the mountains; I've seen them planted here, but they usually don't look too great.

21 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Do you have a link to their site? Id prefer the most local/regional longleaf as well as it would work best here too! I love all the southern yellow pines, but I LOVE the longer needles when the wind blows. 

Here's the link to their site:

http://www.dof.virginia.gov/

I can't remember if you have to be a VA resident/landowner to order.  Longleaf doesn't seem to be available every year.

Edited July 16, 2019 by SEVA

[mdsonofthesouth]

40 minutes ago, SEVA said:

Interesting.  It's been a long time since I've traveled up north.  I just remember the only pines I noticed were the red pines and eastern white pines.  They really caught my eye.  I think the eastern white pines are very beautiful up north and in the mountains; I've seen them planted here, but they usually don't look too great.

Here's the link to their site:

http://www.dof.virginia.gov/

I can't remember if you have to be a VA resident/landowner to order.  Longleaf doesn't seem to be available every year.

 

 

Eastern whites are planted all over here, but the difference between them and say loblollies and shortleaf is they dont seem reproduce well here in comparison. Ill check them out for sure and see about getting a few for the yard. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by mdsonofthesouth

[SEVA]

1 hour ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

 

Eastern whites are planted all over here, but the difference between them and say loblollies and shortleaf is they dont seem reproduce well here in comparison. Ill check them out for sure and see about getting a few for the yard. 

Sounds good.  If you do end up purchasing some longleaf, it'll be interesting to see how they do in Maryland.  How long in grass stage, growth rate, etc... 

[mdsonofthesouth]

3 hours ago, SEVA said:

Sounds good.  If you do end up purchasing some longleaf, it'll be interesting to see how they do in Maryland.  How long in grass stage, growth rate, etc... 

Will do! They are zone 7 hardy and we are a solid mid to warmish zone 7 but surely get cold at times.

[NC_Palms]

7 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Are loblollys like the first true "southern" pine species that is observed growing when going south on the East coast? Here's one of mine that my brother dug from an empty lot when it was a foot tall. 

I applaud your brother for being able to successfully transplant a loblolly. I seem to kill all the loblollies that I attempt to transplant. 

[NC_Palms]

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

 As for Shortleaf being noticeable, Id say its pretty noticeable in southern PA among the meh eastern whites and pitch pines.

I rarely ever see shortleaf pines in PA and when I do, they usually are growing among Virginia pine, pitch pine and red cedar in the mixed hickory-oak-pine forest ecoregion of extreme southern PA and in pine barrens scattered across the state.  These habitats are much drier than the typical broadleaf deciduous forest and are prone to wildfires just like the longleaf pine flatwoods.

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/HabitatManagement/Documents/Barrens_Chapter.pdf

White pines (as well as eastern hemlocks) are usually found in mesic forest, especially near streams in the oak-hickory forest and the Northern hardwood ecoregions. 

[Nj Palms]

I think I may have found the northernmost loblollies. They are in the side of the parkway by the bass river toll plaza. If you look around on maps there are many more. This is only 30 minutes from my house.  The other population is in belleplain state forest down by cape May. There is a video on YouTube i will try and find the link and post it. To find them on maps just search up Bass River Toll Plaza. They will be on the southbound side a little to the north of the toll.

[Nj Palms]

Here’s the video. His channel has many other info about palms and magnolia in Nj

 

[mdsonofthesouth]

Just a few of my babies I got free from the county from their native tree program. Loblollies are like weeds here and spread. Can't wait to compare longleaf!

Edited July 17, 2019 by mdsonofthesouth

[cm05]

Here’s a photo I took of a stand of Shortleaf Pine growing northwest of NYC a few miles north of the NJ/NY border on I-87:

And here’s a photo I took of a Longleaf Pine growing at the U.S. Botanic Garden in Washington, DC:

I really want to try a Longleaf Pine one day, they’re the best looking pine in my opinion, this picture doesn’t do it justice.

[RJ]

On 7/16/2019 at 2:51 PM, SEVA said:

Interesting.  It's been a long time since I've traveled up north.  I just remember the only pines I noticed were the red pines and eastern white pines.  They really caught my eye.  I think the eastern white pines are very beautiful up north and in the mountains; I've seen them planted here, but they usually don't look too great.

 

You saw red pine in NJ? That's pretty surprising as it's a far northern species. We have tons of them around my camp in Maine, mostly on pretty poor sandy soil derived from granite. I would of never thought they would survive that far south, we did have some in Massachusetts when I was a kid.  

[mdsonofthesouth]

3 hours ago, cm05 said:

Here’s a photo I took of a stand of Shortleaf Pine growing northwest of NYC a few miles north of the NJ/NY border on I-87:

And here’s a photo I took of a Longleaf Pine growing at the U.S. Botanic Garden in Washington, DC:

I really want to try a Longleaf Pine one day, they’re the best looking pine in my opinion, this picture doesn’t do it justice.

 

If your'e lucky you can find a few longleaf plantings around DC. I saw a beautiful specimen last year on my way to or from(cant remember which lol) the cherry blossoms. But I agree they are the best looking of southern yellow pines. 

[SEVA]

7 hours ago, RJ said:

You saw red pine in NJ? That's pretty surprising as it's a far northern species. We have tons of them around my camp in Maine, mostly on pretty poor sandy soil derived from granite. I would of never thought they would survive that far south, we did have some in Massachusetts when I was a kid.  

No, I saw the red pines in Pa and NY.  Sorry for any confusion; I was just referring to the north in general.  I should've specified.

[SEVA]

Figured I'd share a photo of the queen palm trunk.  Never thought I'd see it get this tall.

[SEVA]

@mdsonofthesouth you might want to look into getting the NC Piedmont longleaf as well, since they grow on sites with clay soils.  That is, if your land up in Maryland is predominantly clay.  To my knowledge, the last natural stand of longleaf in VA is at the South Quay Sandhills NAP.

[mdsonofthesouth]

1 hour ago, SEVA said:

@mdsonofthesouth you might want to look into getting the NC Piedmont longleaf as well, since they grow on sites with clay soils.  That is, if your land up in Maryland is predominantly clay.  To my knowledge, the last natural stand of longleaf in VA is at the South Quay Sandhills NAP.

 

Great idea! We have utisol red clay out here and despite that species like yucca gloriosa naturalize well here. But a clay native would be more than welcome! Now to source them lol.

[Dartolution]

3 hours ago, SEVA said:

Figured I'd share a photo of the queen palm trunk.  Never thought I'd see it get this tall.

@SEVA Sorry If I missed it, but how long have you had the queen in the ground? What protection do you offer if any?

 

[SEVA]

10 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@SEVA Sorry If I missed it, but how long have you had the queen in the ground? What protection do you offer if any?

 

It's been in the ground for a little over 3 years now (planted March 2016).  Initially, I had used a combination of burlap, Christmas lights, furniture pads/ blankets, and some plastic wrap.  Last winter, I only wrapped it with burlap and Christmas lights.  I wrapped it with a layer of burlap first, then lights over the burlap. The lights were plugged into a Thermocube.  Then, more burlap was wrapped around the lights.

[SEVA]

View from below (standing). It's getting pretty tall; it's taller than it appears in photos, at least in my opinion.  It's certainly the tallest palm in my garden so far.

[SEVA]

My Cestrum is producing a few fruits again this year, and I'm wondering when they're able to be picked in order to germinate seeds. They seem to remain the same color throughout development. Last year, they fell off (or maybe a creature got them?) and was unable to find them. Also, I recently planted a Cestrum nocturnum and Cestrum fasciculatum var newellii.  Hopefully they do just as well.

[SEVA]

This is probably my favorite crepe myrtle.  With the dark purple foliage and deep red flowers.  I rarely see the purple-leaved ones while driving around, yet large quantities of them are available in stores every year.

[Dartolution]

5 hours ago, SEVA said:

It's been in the ground for a little over 3 years now (planted March 2016).  Initially, I had used a combination of burlap, Christmas lights, furniture pads/ blankets, and some plastic wrap.  Last winter, I only wrapped it with burlap and Christmas lights.  I wrapped it with a layer of burlap first, then lights over the burlap. The lights were plugged into a Thermocube.  Then, more burlap was wrapped around the lights.

Thanks @SEVA that is most likely what I would have to do here. 

I really would like somewhere between 1-3 of them planted in the back for some shade and obviously for visual appeal. 

I was thinking of wrapping with burlap, then a heat coil, and burlap again. 

 

Did you wrap the leaves as well? 

 

I am in 8a and our winters usually are in the 50's during the day, and low 40s/upper 30's at night with the rare snap that might deep below freezing. 

I think the USDA planting zone map lists us as having an average minimum temperature of 10-15F. These type of incidences are rare. So I think during the main part of the winter with highs and lows above freezing it wouldn't need wrapping, thoughts?

 

also, love the crape myrtle 

[SEVA]

1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

Thanks @SEVA that is most likely what I would have to do here. 

I really would like somewhere between 1-3 of them planted in the back for some shade and obviously for visual appeal. 

I was thinking of wrapping with burlap, then a heat coil, and burlap again. 

 

Did you wrap the leaves as well? 

 

I am in 8a and our winters usually are in the 50's during the day, and low 40s/upper 30's at night with the rare snap that might deep below freezing. 

I think the USDA planting zone map lists us as having an average minimum temperature of 10-15F. These type of incidences are rare. So I think during the main part of the winter with highs and lows above freezing it wouldn't need wrapping, thoughts?

 

also, love the crape myrtle 

I haven't been wrapping the fronds, but plan to do so this upcoming winter.  I'm not entirely sure what my method will be.  I'll probably try to unwrap the fronds during warmer periods, but will likely leave the trunk wrapped throughout winter.  I don't notice foliar damage until temperatures drop into the low 20s, but is usually very minor.  The fronds are completely fried below 20F.  To be safe, I'll probably keep the fronds wrapped when temps are forecasts to drop below 25F.

[Dartolution]

Sounds like a good plan. 

Have you used bubble wrap for that before? 

[SEVA]

58 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

Sounds like a good plan. 

Have you used bubble wrap for that before? 

I've never used bubble wrap. I did use a pop-up greenhouse for a small majesty palm that survived 2 winters in the ground. I used it mainly to keep the rain off of the wrapping materials. It died after I dug it up last year to move it into a pot.

[SEVA]

I'm sure many of y'all have witnessed this before, but this is a first for me.  One of my needle palms is about to bloom for the second time this growing season.

Edited August 7, 2019 by SEVA

[PalmTreeDude]

5 minutes ago, SEVA said:

I'm sure many of y'all have witnessed this before, but this is a first for me.  One of my needle palms is about to bloom for the second time this growing season.

Awesome! Surprisingly, needle palm seeds were some of the very first palm seeds I germinated, even though they are known to take a while. I wish my needle would flower... But I only have one, so if it did flower it is likely that I wouldn't get any seeds (endless it is one of the special ones that can produce flowers of both sexes). 

Edited August 7, 2019 by PalmTreeDude