Mapu leaf tip necrosis, please help

[Missi]

Please help me troubleshoot my Mapu. I’ve had it since October 2017. Last year, if I can remember correctly, it looked beautiful and put out more new growth than it has this year (in the winter, it comes inside any day it is predicted to go below 65 degrees). This year I seem to be having trouble with leaf tips browning and working the way down each leaflet. I water it every few days (never letting the potting media dry up completely) and mist it each morning. It’s even browning in the extremely humid summer. What could be up? Could it be the fertilizer? I gave it a generous serving of Nutricote. A couple months ago I cut of several lower leaves that were browned up pretty badly. I keep other leaves trimmed with pinking shears.Pic with blue circle is pointing out necrosis on newly opened leaf, pic below that is showing necrosis on oldest leaf even after each leaflet on it being trimmed a couple months ago. 

Pics taken this morning, except for the last pic, which was taken when I first received it from the grower (who is a Florida grower) in 2017.

[Steve Mac]

Sorry I can't help you, but I like the idea of trimming with pinking shears, leaving a more natural look.

 Anything of mine that ever needs trimming from now on will get that treatment.

 

[joe_OC]

Might be over-watering.   Does that drip tray ever dry out?  The bottom of your pot might have very soggy soil

[Neil C]

I'd go with too wet as well. Could you sit the pot on a small upturned pot that still sits in the water tray. This way you still get high humidity but better drainage and the pot isn't sitting in water.

Regards Neil

[Missi]

1 hour ago, joe_OC said:

Might be over-watering.   Does that drip tray ever dry out?  The bottom of your pot might have very soggy soil

 

55 minutes ago, Neil C said:

I'd go with too wet as well. Could you sit the pot on a small upturned pot that still sits in the water tray. This way you still get high humidity but better drainage and the pot isn't sitting in water.

Regards Neil

This problem started before I had it in on the dish. I actually put it on the dish to see if it would help. Is it possible to get Mapu TOO wet? I didn’t even think of that! 

[Missi]

2 hours ago, gtsteve said:

Sorry I can't help you, but I like the idea of trimming with pinking shears, leaving a more natural look.

 Anything of mine that ever needs trimming from now on will get that treatment.

 

Glad to help!  I can’t stand the sight of my palms with jagged-edged leaves and leaflets cut straight. Luckily, I don’t have to trim too many leaves, except this darn Mapu and occasionally the Reinhardtia gracilis.

[LJG]

Hard to over water in a good, draining mix. I could never keep mine from doing this so stopped trying to grow it in my greenhouse. Pretty sure they hated my city water. They are sensitive to salts I bet. Rain water and RO my guess. 

[Pal Meir]

Another possible reason could be over-fertilizing?

[Missi]

15 hours ago, LJG said:

Hard to over water in a good, draining mix. I could never keep mine from doing this so stopped trying to grow it in my greenhouse. Pretty sure they hated my city water. They are sensitive to salts I bet. Rain water and RO my guess. 

I should have mentioned that I only water and mist with rain water or distilled. I’m sorry you have trouble with yours too 

1 hour ago, Pal Meir said:

Another possible reason could be over-fertilizing?

That’s what I’m wondering. I need to put it in a new pot (the one it’s currently in was cracked not too long ago, so I’ll see if scraping out some of the Nutricote will help.

[joe_OC]

Does fertilizers affect the mottling?  When I fertilize my Lanonia disyantha, it loses it.

[Missi]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:46 PM, joe_OC said:

Does fertilizers affect the mottling?  When I fertilize my Lanonia disyantha, it loses it.

Oh, REALLY?? I guess that makes sense.

 

Well, I ended up repotting the palm some time late last week. I discovered that there were some smallish spaces around the roots where the organic part of the potting mixture washed away from the inorganic parts, the inorganic parts settled, and the spaces left the roots bare. Could this cause the necrosis?

[realarch]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:46 AM, joe_OC said:

Does fertilizers affect the mottling?  When I fertilize my Lanonia disyantha, it loses it.

I've read on this forum over the years that fertilizing Lanonia does reduce the mottling, so I never fertilize mine, just mulch.

Now L. 'mapu', on the other hand, talking to others who grow them here in Hawaii, fertilizing has no effect on the mottling. 

Tim

[joe_OC]

2 minutes ago, realarch said:

I've read on this forum over the years that fertilizing Lanonia does reduce the mottling, so I never fertilize mine, just mulch.

Now L. 'mapu', on the other hand, talking to others who grow them here in Hawaii, fertilizing has no effect on the mottling. 

Tim

Thanks, Tim for clearing that up for me.

[realarch]

Joe, that information is only an observation and local here say. There may be some truth to it, but I can't be 100% sure. 

Missy, your 'mapu' has lost much of it's mottling, but it could be due to many factors like light, humidity, planting medium, and maybe the fertilizer. Boy, I don't know.

Tim

[Missi]

8 minutes ago, realarch said:

Joe, that information is only an observation and local here say. There may be some truth to it, but I can't be 100% sure. 

Missy, your 'mapu' has lost much of it's mottling, but it could be due to many factors like light, humidity, planting medium, and maybe the fertilizer. Boy, I don't know.

Tim

It is in an extremely shaded area of my lanai, so maybe I should give it more light? The potting media I have it in contains turface, charcoal, black lava, fir bark fines, pine bark fines, pumice, calcined clay (all around 1/4" size) as well as Miracle Gro cactus/palm/citrus potting soil, and I fertilize with Nutricote. Does that help any?

[Pal Meir]

42 minutes ago, Missi said:

It is in an extremely shaded area of my lanai, so maybe I should give it more light? The potting media I have it in contains turface, charcoal, black lava, fir bark fines, pine bark fines, pumice, calcined clay (all around 1/4" size) as well as Miracle Gro cactus/palm/citrus potting soil, and I fertilize with Nutricote. Does that help any?

Your mix is so complex that it is hard to decide what might be wrong. — I am using only 3 components in variable proportions: Seramis + LECA (= lava) + pine bark. And as fertilizer I add a very much diluted liquid NPK fert (e.g. COMPO) only when the palms are growing healthily, but almost nothing during the dark seasons.

[joe_OC]

1 hour ago, realarch said:

Joe, that information is only an observation and local here say. There may be some truth to it, but I can't be 100% sure. 

Missy, your 'mapu' has lost much of it's mottling, but it could be due to many factors like light, humidity, planting medium, and maybe the fertilizer. Boy, I don't know.

Tim

Practical observation is very useful when it comes to growing plants.  I've seen Lanonia dasyantha lose mottling from fertilizing.  I don't grow mapu to know.  

[Dypsisdean]

Sorry - brief hi-jack.

My take on fertilizer leading to loss of variegation is as follows.

- For unstable (spontaneous/sports or viral) variegation in many plants, I've always heard (and witnessed) that fertilizer can "weaken" it. But not in mutations from seed or breeding - like a variagated Foxy Lady.

- For variegation (mottling) in Mapu (and Foxy Lady) - that is, a palm that retains nice variegation from juvenile through adulthood - I don't think it "weakens" it.

- But there are many palms that have mottling (IMO - not really variagation) and lose the mottling while maturing. Many Pinanga do this. But while Mapu seems to retain the mottling through adulthood, my Lanonia dasyantha has slowly lost most of it's mottling - and I don't think it is due to fertilizer, as it hasn't gotten much. I think it may just be an "adult" thing. Same with many mottled Pinanga I have grown.

So - this makes sense because color traits that are genetic (hard coded) into the plants should stay put. And this includes genetic traits reserved  only for young plants - meaning fertilizer will not cause loss of mottling in young Pinanga - that are destined to lose it later. Unstable traits (including unstable genetic traits like mutations and sports) react differently.

So, in other words - you may mistake a cause for a loss of variegation to fertilizer when it could just be "growing out of it."

[Tracy S]

I have seen in my plants that the light level has a big impact on bottling. For instance lanonia Nd pinanga in high light is less mottled than the same planta in low light. I have not seen any impact on mottling from fertilizer (and I fertilize the heck out of my plants including my mapu)

I have other plants that get the brown tips irartea deltoids, local triphyla as well as most of my handkerchief trees. I assume itd something in the soil that causes this but I'm not sure. Maybe it is the gaps as missi suggests. Mine are all in ground and I have a terrible mole problem.

I would like to hear thoughts from others on the brown tip issues that missi is having.

 

[Missi]

19 hours ago, Tracy S said:

I have seen in my plants that the light level has a big impact on bottling. For instance lanonia Nd pinanga in high light is less mottled than the same planta in low light. I have not seen any impact on mottling from fertilizer (and I fertilize the heck out of my plants including my mapu)

I have other plants that get the brown tips irartea deltoids, local triphyla as well as most of my handkerchief trees. I assume itd something in the soil that causes this but I'm not sure. Maybe it is the gaps as missi suggests. Mine are all in ground and I have a terrible mole problem.

I would like to hear thoughts from others on the brown tip issues that missi is having.

 

Is your mapu in ground? Do you do anything special for its care, regardless of whether it's in ground or potted?

Yes, please keep the thoughts and tips coming!

[Missi]

21 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Your mix is so complex that it is hard to decide what might be wrong. — I am using only 3 components in variable proportions: Seramis + LECA (= lava) + pine bark. And as fertilizer I add a very much diluted liquid NPK fert (e.g. COMPO) only when the palms are growing healthily, but almost nothing during the dark seasons.

I was assuming the more variety, the better! All the 1/4" items are equally mixed from a company that makes mixes for bonsai. All my other potted palms are thriving in the same mix of ingredients I listed, so I was assuming it wasn't the potting media that was affecting my little mapu.

[Missi]

On 8/21/2019 at 11:42 AM, Missi said:

Regarding the subtle variegation on my specimen, mine has never had that highly contrasting, almost yellowish mottling (that we all know and love and salivate over). This is a pic of the plant when I unboxed it, straight from the grower.

[John in Andalucia]

The necrosis looks systematic to the point that I would want do a 'full autopsy'. I'd be telling myself that this isn't going to improve, so I'd rinse the soil away and start afresh. Perhaps an anti-fungal wash and re-pot with pumice granules and a little humus? I'd flush several times with rainwater and check the pH is slightly acidic when finished. I've got 5 little mapu seedlings I've grown myself from seed. The biggest is pushing it's 4th strap leaf, and I'm pleasantly surprised that they are a nice dark green colour all over.

[Missi]

18 hours ago, John in Andalucia said:

The necrosis looks systematic to the point that I would want do a 'full autopsy'. I'd be telling myself that this isn't going to improve, so I'd rinse the soil away and start afresh. Perhaps an anti-fungal wash and re-pot with pumice granules and a little humus? I'd flush several times with rainwater and check the pH is slightly acidic when finished. I've got 5 little mapu seedlings I've grown myself from seed. The biggest is pushing it's 4th strap leaf, and I'm pleasantly surprised that they are a nice dark green colour all over.

Which tool do you recommend for an accurate reading on soil pH?

[John in Andalucia]

19 minutes ago, Missi said:

Which tool do you recommend for an accurate reading on soil pH?

Missi - a pH probe such as this would be my choice: Soil PH Measuring Instrument

I would avoid the '3 in 1' probes which start at around $7. The one in the link is $20. You don't need specific pH values, but it would be useful for comparing soils in general.

[realarch]

Here are a couple of photos of L. 'mapu' that have been in the ground for maybe two years now after being in pots for at last five or six. I never stressed about soil mix, just half garden soil, worms and all, and half commercial mix you can find anywhere. I also throw in a handful of black cinder. 

Too much shade or too much light seemed to impact the overall growth rate and leaf condition. When they were in pots, I moved them around to find just the right spot because the canopy density was constantly changing affecting access to rainfall and light. I think I found the perfect spot in the garden, bright but shaded and nothing to block the liquid gold. 

Tim 

[Missi]

21 hours ago, John in Andalucia said:

Missi - a pH probe such as this would be my choice: Soil PH Measuring Instrument

I would avoid the '3 in 1' probes which start at around $7. The one in the link is $20. You don't need specific pH values, but it would be useful for comparing soils in general.

Excellent! I'll order that one. I've been meaning to get one but the reviews are all over the place - from reliable to unreliable!

17 hours ago, realarch said:

Here are a couple of photos of L. 'mapu' that have been in the ground for maybe two years now after being in pots for at last five or six. I never stressed about soil mix, just half garden soil, worms and all, and half commercial mix you can find anywhere. I also throw in a handful of black cinder. 

Too much shade or too much light seemed to impact the overall growth rate and leaf condition. When they were in pots, I moved them around to find just the right spot because the canopy density was constantly changing affecting access to rainfall and light. I think I found the perfect spot in the garden, bright but shaded and nothing to block the liquid gold. 

Tim 

 I'd say you found the perfect location too! 

I'm going to keep a very. very close on eye mine and return here with updates, whether good or not so good. I moved it to a brighter location. Time will tell...

[metalfan]

I have mine in my terrarium for now. I don't think it will get too much light in there, I have it sort of moved away from the overheads. I didnt want to leave it out in the greenhouse over the winter when the humidity drops, and I wanted to be sure it gets enough humidity. I just got it today, its a replacement for my stand of 5 that died several years ago. I am hopeful keeping it in the indoor environment for at least over winter will be successful. I don;t want to lose it again

[Everton]

On 8/21/2019 at 12:42 PM, Missi said:

Please help me troubleshoot my Mapu. I’ve had it since October 2017. Last year, if I can remember correctly, it looked beautiful and put out more new growth than it has this year (in the winter, it comes inside any day it is predicted to go below 65 degrees). This year I seem to be having trouble with leaf tips browning and working the way down each leaflet. I water it every few days (never letting the potting media dry up completely) and mist it each morning. It’s even browning in the extremely humid summer. What could be up? Could it be the fertilizer? I gave it a generous serving of Nutricote. A couple months ago I cut of several lower leaves that were browned up pretty badly. I keep other leaves trimmed with pinking shears.Pic with blue circle is pointing out necrosis on newly opened leaf, pic below that is showing necrosis on oldest leaf even after each leaflet on it being trimmed a couple months ago. 

Pics taken this morning, except for the last pic, which was taken when I first received it from the grower (who is a Florida grower) in 2017.

Hi Missi! How is your Licuala? I have one that has necrotic leaf tips, and the necrosis gradually increases.

[Collectorpalms]

29 minutes ago, Everton said:

Hi Missi! How is your Licuala? I have one that has necrotic leaf tips, and the necrosis gradually increases.

Some palms are very picky about water quality. Leach the pot with rain water or distilled water over and over again. 9 times out of 10 its going to be from chlorides, chlorine, boron, and the #1 is sodium  ( salt).  Those show up at the leaf tip. Chlorides and salt are going to collect in that saucer.  I am not sure what Nutricote you are using, but some fertilizers are very heavy in chlorides and of course sodium. Id use an organic fertilizer or one that does not use potassium chloride as its source of potassium. Otherwise, it sound like your doing a good job keeping it in a humid warm environment.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[realarch]

Thanks for the info Ryan. 

Lucky here to have abundant rainfall on a regular monthly basis. For those infrequent times of low precipitation, I have several of those heavy duty 55 gallon trash cans hooked to the downspouts to collect the rainwater. I use that for nursery plants in lieu of the hose bib water.  

Tim

[Palm Tree Jim]

2 hours ago, realarch said:

Thanks for the info Ryan. 

Lucky here to have abundant rainfall on a regular monthly basis. For those infrequent times of low precipitation, I have several of those heavy duty 55 gallon trash cans hooked to the downspouts to collect the rainwater. I use that for nursery plants in lieu of the hose bib water.  

Tim

That's a great plan Tim.  Something I should look into going forward.

[realarch]

Jim, being where you are located in CR, you’re familiar with copious rainfall. A few years back we stayed with a friend in Quepos, it rained so hard we started looking for that Ark. Had a great time though.

Tim