TRULY cold hardy palms ? For zone 6 ?

[The Silent Seed]

Has anybody consistently grown palms outside, in zone 6, without cheating? By cheating, I mean building structures around them,

or wrapping them, or heating them, etc. 

 

[kinzyjr]

If they have, it's a very well established Sabal minor or Rhapidophyllum hystrix in a place with long, hot summers.  @Keith in SoJax had some growing up in southern IL close to the MO side of the state.  You can see it here: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/47697-washingtonia-robusta/&tab=comments#comment-731940

[Allen]

Established Sabal minor or Needle palm as stated above should survive.  In zone 6 all trunking palms (Trachycarpus) will need Christmas lights during periods of roughly 10-12F and below.  7B is the lowest zone which may grow Trachy unprotected.  Even then a record cold year could get them.  

[Matt N- Dallas]

I planted ‘mc curtain county’ sabal minor in Kansas City, Missouri z6 more than 20 years ago.  They have grown to adult hood and seed most years.  Some years they get foliage burn, but always bounce back.  I’ve found long duration cold has been more damaging than ultimate lows.  

[Rickybobby]

I live in 6b but it can stay in negatives celsius for a month sometimes. So is there such thing a warm zone 6 and a cold one?

[The Silent Seed]

Great info guys! Matt; Wouldn't MO fall under the category of a long, tough winter? Sounds like McCurtain could be worth a try for me. 

(Did you choose the McCurtain locale for this reason, or was it luck?) 

[JHarris]

On 9/13/2019 at 11:52 AM, The Silent Seed said:

Has anybody consistently grown palms outside, in zone 6, without cheating? By cheating, I mean building structures around them,

or wrapping them, or heating them, etc. 

 

Plant trachies along foundation of your house.

Youll never have to winterize!

[kinzyjr]

On 9/14/2019 at 8:19 AM, Rickybobby said:

I live in 6b but it can stay in negatives celsius for a month sometimes. So is there such thing a warm zone 6 and a cold one?

Yes.  Example of a Cold Zone: The inside of a refrigerator is technically USDA zone 10. 

USDA Zones are guidelines, but they only capture the average lowest temperature, not the duration of the cold, humidity, days above 85F or other factors.

On 9/14/2019 at 8:25 AM, The Silent Seed said:

Great info guys! Matt; Wouldn't MO fall under the category of a long, tough winter? Sounds like McCurtain could be worth a try for me. 

(Did you choose the McCurtain locale for this reason, or was it luck?) 

Technically, not out of the realm of possibility.  I have heard there are specimens on Cape Cod and Nantucket.  I know there were specimens growing in the Philadelphia area: https://www.bg-map.com/hardiplm.html

If you do try one, you'll definitely want one of the hardier cultivars.  The 'McCurtain' cultivar from SE Oklahoma is very hardy, but may be unseated as the hardiest by 'Cherokee' from the Weiss Lake are in northern Alabama.   There is also a hardy cultivar from southern Arkansas that tends to grow larger and more robust than 'McCurtain' or 'Cherokee' from what I have read.  One consideration is that Kansas City has hotter summers.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I grow thousands of Cherokee and McCurtain sabals and northern sourced needles every year if you want to give them a try.  There have been several threads with habitat pictures of the seed that I grow.

[NC_Palms]

Since you are in the Northeast, Sabal minor and Rhapidophyllum hystrix are your best bet.  

When I used to live in 6b Pennsylvania, I grew a windmill but I always protected it in the winter. 

[DAVEinMB]

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Yes.  Example of a Cold Zone: The inside of a refrigerator is technically USDA zone 10. 

I love this analogy. 

Overlaying heat and hardiness zone maps should give you a better idea of how a palm may do in a particular area.

[The Silent Seed]

Thank you guys for your input! I'm sure it would be better to source some of these palms in the spring, not the fall, to give them a head start? 

Amazing that a refrigerator is zone 10 - makes sense of course - but fun fact for sure! 

[jfrye01@live.com]

Finally something I can give input on! I live just outside of Wichita, KS, zone 6b...and I agree with what others have said, long hot summers are the greatest factor to palm survival in this climate.  Here I have attached some pictures of palms that are growing around town here, no protection...best of luck to you! 

Sabal Louisiana grove at a church downtown: 

Sabal palmetto (be warned, this one is likely not long term hardy, however, it has been in the ground for several years!) 

T. Fortunei, up against a wall: 

And of course, the king of the hardy palms, Rhapidophyllum: 

[RJ]

3 hours ago, Palm Lord said:

When you say long, hot summers how long do you mean? It stayed between 27°F and 82°F in my 8B microclimate all year and most of the year it was below 60. 

To me long hot summers are summers with temps constantly in the 90’s and nights no lower then say 65. 

[PalmatierMeg]

What @RJ says. Palm Lord, it would help a lot if you put in your profile state in which you live.

[climate change virginia]

none a needle has a low chance of where you live all it takes is a freak winter to take it out any palm where you live will die without protection 

Edited February 4, 2021 by climate change virginia

[jwitt]

These have been in place in a 6b for nearly 30 years. Never seen an protected. 4 year old pic. These palms saw 2 back to back nights of -11f in 2011. Corrales, NM 4970'

 

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 9/14/2019 at 8:19 AM, Rickybobby said:

I live in 6b but it can stay in negatives celsius for a month sometimes. So is there such thing a warm zone 6 and a cold one?

A cold zone 6 would be in Montreal, the best microclimates around downtown just barely reach zone 6a.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

20 hours ago, jwitt said:

These have been in place in a 6b for nearly 30 years. Never seen an protected. 4 year old pic. These palms saw 2 back to back nights of -11f in 2011. Corrales, NM 4970'

 

Yeah, but New Mexico is a dry climate. In the east, w. filifera are only hardy to zone 8a.

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

Yeah, but New Mexico is a dry climate. In the east, w. filifera are only hardy to zone 8a.

While your statement is true, the palms pictured sit in a water table of less than 5 feet. Meaning their roots are permanently wet. 

 

And if it were due to the "dry" climate, I think you would see filifera in higher  zonal (dry)climates like Lubbock, Reno, SLC in addition to Corrales, NM.  But you don't.

 

I believe the reason you don't is the amount of winter solar insolation found in NM. Highest in the nation! Probably why the filifera here are the world record holders for cold endurance.  Other palms included.  

One little bit of side of info, those back to back nights of -11f were preceded by rain, then snow, and wind(like most Arctic events here).  Meaning the crowns were wet then froze while the roots remained waterlogged.  Not truly dry!

 

High elevation solar radiation and palm trunk mass is the key here. 

 

Outside of this high elevation region(ABQ-EL PASO-DOUGLAS AZ) I can not find large, 20+year, established filifera. 

 

Not insinuating dry climate does not help, but there are other things in play.

 

One would be the extended freezes in DFW compared to Corrales.  Huge difference! Although DFW is 2 zones warmer. 

 

In the east, a telephone pole is cold on a 32f sunny day. That same pole is warm on a 20f sunny day here. In my opinion, that is the major difference.

 

Just my thoughts. 

 

On a side note, hidden in that lawn is a med palm and a trachy by the house.  Also outside of Corrales, the water table in the rest of NM is measured as non existent or in the hundreds of feet for the most part. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by jwitt
Word correction

[jwitt]

On 9/13/2019 at 12:52 PM, The Silent Seed said:

Has anybody consistently grown palms outside, in zone 6, without cheating? By cheating, I mean building structures around them,

or wrapping them, or heating them, etc. 

 

In Corrales NM(ZONE 6B) palms(trachyc/filifera) have been grown for about 25 years unprotected.  Some pix and charts confirming the zone.  Results in other zone 6b's may very.   On a side note, I know of robustas and P. Dact in a 7b.  For now, we'll stick with zone 6.

 

 

[The Silent Seed]

Wow - this is awesome - thank you for sharing! 

[donofriojim1]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:57 PM, Palm Lord said:

You definitely well in zone 6a! I live on Cedar Point Island, Ohio zone 6b but there are 8b microclimates here. I have a windmill palm tree here in 7b microclimate and it lived for 6 years before it died at 5 degrees Fahrenheit. It is hard to imagine a Windmill Palm in 6A or 6B without protection even if up against the building.

Check out my Cincinnati palms posts

[donofriojim1]

13 hours ago, Palm Lord said:

I bet there are lots of needle palms and maybe protected Sabal minors. I mean, there is 8B in Western Iceland and South West Ireland is 10A. Don't even get me started on the sub tropical rainforest in Greenland.

There are some Needle palms, sabal minor, and even a few sabal Louisiana there aren't protected with anymore than good siting. All of my Needle, sabal minor mc curtain, sabal Louisiana all made it through this vortex just fine!

[RaleighNC]

22 hours ago, Palm Lord said:

I bet there are lots of needle palms and maybe protected Sabal minors. I mean, there is 8B in Western Iceland and South West Ireland is 10A. Don't even get me started on the sub tropical rainforest in Greenland.

That must be a sub-sub-sub-subtropical rainforest! Maybe a boreal rainforest?

[palmsOrl]

Yeah, that rainforest in Greenland would have to be boreal or (extremely cold) temperate rainforest.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 2/9/2021 at 7:15 PM, jwitt said:

While your statement is true, the palms pictured sit in a water table of less than 5 feet. Meaning their roots are permanently wet. 

 

And if it were due to the "dry" climate, I think you would see filifera in higher  zonal (dry)climates like Lubbock, Reno, SLC in addition to Corrales, NM.  But you don't.

 

I believe the reason you don't is the amount of winter solar insolation found in NM. Highest in the nation! Probably why the filifera here are the world record holders for cold endurance.  Other palms included.  

One little bit of side of info, those back to back nights of -11f were preceded by rain, then snow, and wind(like most Arctic events here).  Meaning the crowns were wet then froze while the roots remained waterlogged.  Not truly dry!

 

High elevation solar radiation and palm trunk mass is the key here. 

 

Outside of this high elevation region(ABQ-EL PASO-DOUGLAS AZ) I can not find large, 20+year, established filifera. 

 

Not insinuating dry climate does not help, but there are other things in play.

 

One would be the extended freezes in DFW compared to Corrales.  Huge difference! Although DFW is 2 zones warmer. 

 

In the east, a telephone pole is cold on a 32f sunny day. That same pole is warm on a 20f sunny day here. In my opinion, that is the major difference.

 

Just my thoughts. 

 

On a side note, hidden in that lawn is a med palm and a trachy by the house.  Also outside of Corrales, the water table in the rest of NM is measured as non existent or in the hundreds of feet for the most part. 

One of the members posted a filifera in Lubbock in another forum. Also, Reno and SLC are alot further north, so the freezes are more durated. But you're right otherwise.

Edited February 21, 2021 by EastCanadaTropicals

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:04 PM, Palm Lord said:

I bet there are lots of needle palms and maybe protected Sabal minors. I mean, there is 8B in Western Iceland and South West Ireland is 10A. Don't even get me started on the sub tropical rainforest in Greenland.

Subtropical rain forest in greenland?!

[EastCanadaTropicals]

3 hours ago, RaleighNC said:

That must be a sub-sub-sub-subtropical rainforest! Maybe a boreal rainforest?

No native subtropical forest in Greenland, that is absolute BS.

Edited February 21, 2021 by EastCanadaTropicals

[EastCanadaTropicals]

3 hours ago, RaleighNC said:

That must be a sub-sub-sub-subtropical rainforest! Maybe a boreal rainforest?

 

2 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Yeah, that rainforest in Greenland would have to be boreal or (extremely cold) temperate rainforest.

It's only a taiga. No Rainforests in Greenland.

[Brandon James]

Anyone know of success stories around Maine? I have three needle palm plants planted at various times and so far show minor damage in some fonds and spear pull in one. I have successfully grown a larger windmill palm by utilizing a wooden structure with a couple sheets of Lexand glass around it to make a micro climate or enclose the palm from winds in extreme cold weather. Currently trying sable minor this upcoming year and even planted a cabbage palm next to our foundation on the sunny side of our house. Curious what success others have had here in Maine

Edited February 22, 2021 by Brandon James

[Jimhardy]

Whether plants have been rained on or snow or whatever

the abundant sunshine and low humidity give the palms a chance to get the

upper hand in recovering....when there is rot you have fungal infections and these can

outgrow the plants ability to recover....I had a Bizzy survive 20F in a pot once on the porch....

brought inside into the house this plant had been bone dry for a month outside and inside after ....the spear

never pulled, it just broke in half once it grew out but that was it.

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, Brandon James said:

Anyone know of success stories around Maine? I have three needle palm plants planted at various times and so far show minor damage in some fonds and spear pull in one. I have successfully grown a larger windmill palm by utilizing a wooden structure with a couple sheets of Lexand glass around it to make a micro climate or enclose the palm from winds in extreme cold weather. Currently trying sable minor this upcoming year and even planted a cabbage palm next to our foundation on the sunny side of our house. Curious what success others have had here in Maine

First I've heard about from Maine! Impressive! I've  often thought lexan or glass over a palm would help(keep liquid off, but allow solar radiation.  Pretty cool what can be done in different places. 

[LouisvillePalmer]

On 2/10/2021 at 3:41 AM, jwitt said:

In Corrales NM(ZONE 6B) palms(trachyc/filifera) have been grown for about 25 years unprotected.  Some pix and charts confirming the zone.  Results in other zone 6b's may very.   On a side note, I know of robustas and P. Dact in a 7b.  For now, we'll stick with zone 6.

From the USDA zone map, it identifies Corrales NM as zone 7B.

 

Your charts do indicate a zone 6 possibility, but the fact you have ease growing trunking palms points me towards the idea that it is more realistically a zone 7B with quick touches of zone 6 cold (during the night).

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, LouisvillePalmer said:

From the USDA zone map, it identifies Corrales NM as zone 7B.

 

Your charts do indicate a zone 6 possibility, but the fact you have ease growing trunking palms points me towards the idea that it is more realistically a zone 7B with quick touches of zone 6 cold (during the night).

So we define zone rating by plants that are able to grow, or we go by national weather service statistics with 30 year average minimum annual average extreme?  

 

Albuquerque(the city) has the second most climate(zones) in the US of any city. Los Angeles is number 1.  The zone map does not show this.  I live in a 7b, called Corrales Heights.  In fact, I can go into Corrales proper in the morning(a matter of 2 miles) and see a 10f drop and 3-4f rise in the afternoon. Weird.

This kind of also proves it:

Average growing season days:

Corrales Heights/Albuquerque=220

Corrales=160

80 day difference

There are parts of Corrales that are 7b. There are parts that are 6b if using the method used for defining USDA plant hardiness zones as I have undeniably proven.

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by jwitt

[jwitt]

Location	Average Days
Albuquerque Sunport	210
Albuquerque Foothills	193
Albuquerque South Valley	187
Sandia Park (inactive station)	174
Los Lunas 3 SSW	171
Corrales	161
Moriarty	144

 

[donofriojim1]

On 9/13/2019 at 2:52 PM, The Silent Seed said:

Has anybody consistently grown palms outside, in zone 6, without cheating? By cheating, I mean building structures around them,

or wrapping them, or heating them, etc. 

 

look at my cincinnati palms posts