Sabal blackburniana Inquiry

[Dartolution]

I have found it increasingly difficult to find good information on this cultivar. 

Does anyone have any experience with this sabal, or know of references I can check out for information about its culture?

I have one on the way soon and want to make sure I know as much as possible.

Thanks

[Chris Chance]

I have one in my yard doing great. I just took a picture of it today. There really isn't much info about them and I believe they're not considered a true species. As far as hardiness I'm unsure but doesn't flinch at our zone 9 winters and loves the heat. 

[Dartolution]

@Chris Chance Thanks. How long have you had it? How is the growth rate on it?

I am in zone 8a on the east coast. Much different in terms of climate. 

 

[Chris Chance]

8 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

@Chris Chance Thanks. How long have you had it? How is the growth rate on it?

I am in zone 8a on the east coast. Much different in terms of climate. 

 

I planted it as a 5 gallon 4 years ago. They aren't the fastest but they seem to pick up speed. 

I have a feeling in your area they might have a problem with the coldest winters that could happen. Mine hasn't seen any lower than 26. I could be wrong but I would think once it gets under 20 degrees it might not be happy but I really haven't tested that low. 

[Dartolution]

The very limited resources I have been able to find say anywhere between 8F to 27F. Its incredibly variable. 

The source I am getting it from says mid teens. 

 

[Allen]

Information I have says it won't take your cold but many Sabal varieties will so it's a question mark.   It's a try and see type thing but you're pushing it probably without protection

Edited November 26, 2019 by Allen

[Dartolution]

I wouldn't mind giving it protection as long as possible and perhaps they are more cold tolerant once established? As it is I have 3 Chamaerops palms in the yard. This will be their first winter. 

[Allen]

Sabal palmetto, Brazoria, Birmingham, Louisiana, Trachycarpus Fortunei, Sabal Minor, Needle Palm, Butia capitata odorata

 

Below list to try that pushes things a bit....

*=expect frond damage

**= Better plan to protect

Brahea armata*
Brahea berlandieri aka B. bella
Brahea decumbens*

Brahea dulcis*
Brahea moorei*
Butia capitata*

Butia eriospatha

Butia capitata odorata

Butia paraguayensis*

Butia purpurascens*
Butia yatay*
Chamaedorea microspadix*

Chamaedorea radicalis*

Chamaerops humilis*

Chamaerops humilis cerifera*
Jubea chilensis**
Nannorrhops ritchiana**

Nannorrhops ritchiana ‘Silver’**

Phoenix dactylifera**

Phoenix loureiroi humilis**

Phoenix loureiroi pedunculata**

Phoenix sylvestris**

Phoenix theoprastii**
Sabal domingensis*
Sabal etonia

Sabal maritima*

Sabal mexicana*
Sabal palmetto

Sabal rosei*

Serenoa repens

Trachycarpus latisectus*

Trachycarpus ‘manipur’

Trachycarpus martianus*

Trachycarpus ‘Naga Hills’

Trachycarpus oreophilus*

Trachycarpus princeps*

Trithrinax brasiliensis*

Trithrinax campestris*

Washingtonia filifera**
Washingtonia filifera-x-robusta**

Washingtonia robusta**

[Kailua_Krish]

2 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@Chris Chance Thanks. How long have you had it? How is the growth rate on it?

I am in zone 8a on the east coast. Much different in terms of climate. 

 

I have some I purchased as that in 9a in central florida. They have been unphased at around 20 but can't vouch for lower than that. They grow slow but steady. Ive had them for about 15 years since seedlings but no real trunk yet but are in sandy poor soil. They have a nice bluish green color.

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

@Dartolution One Sabal i would give a try is S.Birmingham. Prolly the most cold hardy trunking Sabal. Now I do believe it's painfully slow to grow. 

http://www.garysnursery.com/SabalBirmingham.html

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Blackburnia start to burn at 10-12F.  Its one of the few palms at the nursery that has never completely defoliated.  The one I have has about 3' of trunk and is extremely slow growing.

[Dartolution]

@OC2Texaspalmlvr How appropriate that Im 30 miles south of Birmingham Al where that Sabal was moved to so many years ago. 

@TexasColdHardyPalms That is within reason, considering that the majority of sources I have been able to scrounge up have stated near the same. 

 

Do those of you who have it fertilize any, and if so, what are you using, and at what interval?

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

We use basically the same as Carl pool palm food. 

[Sabal Steve]

Sabal Bermudana is reportedly a hardier tree, as well, and is said to be better in climates lacking heat.  They not too difficult to find, and may be hardy into the low teens.  I’d second ‘Birmingham’, which I believe is native to North Carolina.  I believe there is a grower who grows them in New Bern, NC.  Years ago, I bought a few seeds off of a mature ‘Blackburniana’ from Bill Skimma @ Multiflora Palms in Fallbrook, CA.

Here’s the seedling after 3-4 years, and an old pic of the parent tree.  The Seedlings in back are Sabal Mauritiiformis, which is perhaps the least cold hardy one.

Edited November 28, 2019 by The Steve

[Steve in Florida]

4 hours ago, The Steve said:

Sabal Bermudana is reportedly a hardier tree, as well, and is said to be better in climates lacking heat.  They not too difficult to find, and may be hardy into the low teens.  I’d second ‘Birmingham’, which I believe is native to North Carolina.  I believe there is a grower who grows them in New Bern, NC.  Years ago, I bought a few seeds off of a mature ‘Blackburniana’ from Bill Skimma @ Multiflora Palms in Fallbrook, CA.

 

 

The Sabal 'Birmingham' actually got it's name from the city of Birmingham, Alabama where it grew for many decades.  It was originally brought back as a small potted specimen from California and planted on the property of Miss Alexander in 1910.

[Sabal Steve]

47 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

The Sabal 'Birmingham' actually got it's name from the city of Birmingham, Alabama where it grew for many decades.  It was originally brought back as a small potted specimen from California and planted on the property of Miss Alexander in 1910.

Your memory serves you well.

[Dartolution]

Thank you guys for this info! 

@The Steve is that foliage really that blue/green in person? The picture is a Sabal blackburniana right?

 

We have pretty hot and humid summers, and our winters here are usually cool and wet. 

Typical winter temps are in the 50's during the day, and 30's-40's during the night. 

We don't have a whole lot of cold snaps, perhaps a handful a year, and rarely have snow, and when we do its not a lot, and is usually gone by the day after.

 

[Sabal Steve]

2 hours ago, Dartolution said:

Thank you guys for this info! 

@The Steve is that foliage really that blue/green in person? The picture is a Sabal blackburniana right?

 

We have pretty hot and humid summers, and our winters here are usually cool and wet. 

Typical winter temps are in the 50's during the day, and 30's-40's during the night. 

We don't have a whole lot of cold snaps, perhaps a handful a year, and rarely have snow, and when we do its not a lot, and is usually gone by the day after.

 

In my experience, most Sabal seedlings have a blue tinge (not Mauritiiformis), but they grow out of it (not Uresana - although there are reportedly “green forms”) when older.  I suspect that you will lose much of that hue (with Blackburniana) as it matures.  At least that was the case, with my example plants above.  Yes, it was really that blue, when young.

Edited November 29, 2019 by The Steve

[Kailua_Krish]

Mine still have a bluer tinge than do palmetto or dominguensis but its not really a true blue more of a blue green and its subtle

[Dartolution]

Just wanted to share. 

My 5 gallon Sabal Blackburniana came today

 

[Dartolution]

[Allen]

That's a really nice size palm!

[Dartolution]

@Allen yeah I was excited to get it, and will most likely be planting it in the spring. 

[meteorologistpalmguy]

17 hours ago, Dartolution said:

Just wanted to share. 

My 5 gallon Sabal Blackburniana came today

 

Here is mine... just about 3.5 years in the ground, starting at basically the same size as yours.   Slow to moderate, but steady grower.  Has seen lows of 15 twice, ice, snow.  Never have seen any damage.  

[Dartolution]

@meteorologistpalmguy Thats encouraging news! 

Is yours irrigated regularly? Fertilizer?

Could you tell me about your culture for it?

[meteorologistpalmguy]

 

Just now, Dartolution said:

@meteorologistpalmguy Thats encouraging news! 

Is yours irrigated regularly? Fertilizer?

Could you tell me about your culture for it?

It has drip irrigation running to it.   So it gets watered about every other day I the summer, and none in the winter.   Fertilizer is PalmGain about one a month during the warmer months, none in the winter.   This one is a bit shade grown, so perhaps more stretched out that you might get in full sun.  

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

16 minutes ago, meteorologistpalmguy said:

Here is mine... just about 3.5 years in the ground, starting at basically the same size as yours.   Slow to moderate, but steady grower.  Has seen lows of 15 twice, ice, snow.  Never have seen any damage.

I would take that growth rate for a palm that can take that kind of cold. Definitely faster then S.Birmingham 

[Dartolution]

6 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

I would take that growth rate for a palm that can take that kind of cold. Definitely faster then S.Birmingham 

@OC2Texaspalmlvr really? 

@meteorologistpalmguy thats more good news. I have drip irrigation in the yard to various plants, and I use palm gain as well. 

This summer I experimented with JOBES palm spikes, using 2 of them around a Chamaerops humilis I had. You can go to that thread to see the growth on it. While most of it is stretching upward to get more light, there was a good bit of girth added to the base, as well as some trunk height (not a ton). Other than that, I watered on a 2 week schedule with miracle grows new performance organics hose sprayer, with 100mL seaweed extract, and 2 TBS of molasses mixed in as well. The garden did very very well this year. Ill probably adopt a similar feed schedule for it as well. 

 

Is blackburniana really just a synonym for Sabal bermuda? I keep reading this. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

So S.Birmingham is suppose to be the most cold hardy trunking Sabal there is. Unfortunately one of the slowest growing Sabals there is. 

[Dartolution]

@OC2Texaspalmlvr I've read. This is why I chose not to get one. 

 

[Allen]

There is a huge growth rate difference between a Sabal (Minor, Birmingham, Louisiana, Brazoria) and let's say a Trachycarpus Fortunei.  I have several different Sabal's and most grow 3 fronds/yr while a Fortunei will grow around 12+/yr  

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

5 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

@OC2Texaspalmlvr I've read. This is why I chose not to get one. 

 

I get that I use to have no patience for palms. I personally like the Sabal look right before it trunks =) 

 

24 minutes ago, Allen said:

There is a huge growth rate difference between a Sabal (Minor, Birmingham, Louisiana, Brazoria) and let's say a Trachycarpus Fortunei.  I have several different Sabal's and most grow 3 fronds/yr while a Fortunei will grow around 12+/yr  

I have a S.Louisiana that throws up almost a frond a month and it's in a pot and not even costa- palmate yet. My S.Riverside throws a new frond every other month at least and it's only been in the ground this spring =)

[Allen]

Fortunei on left in recent 2019 picture, Louisiana on right.  

2017 photo Fortunei in front, Louisina barely visible strap leaf BEHIND the fortunei

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Allen

[Dartolution]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

Fortunei on left in recent 2019 picture, Louisiana on right.  

2017 photo Fortunei in front, Louisina barely visible strap leaf BEHIND the fortunei

 

 

 

Well... I stand corrected!

 

[Allen]

50 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

 

 

Well... I stand corrected!

 

Not trying to correct anyone, just giving idea of growth rate.  My Trachy will be 10' before the Sabals I have form a trunk.  But you picked a good fast grower it seems.

 

[Dartolution]

haha @Allen No I understand, I just meant I couldnt believe the growth. 

In my experience trachys grow incredibly slow. That could however have been due to a number of factors at the time. 

 

Im hoping the blackburniana will be. Phil lists it on the website as being a fast grower. 

[Dartolution]

Just thought I'd post a picture. 

Been a week, and doing well. Since the daytime temps are in the upper 50's low 60's and nighttime temps in the 30's and 40's I've been leaving them out. 

Though you can't see in the picture, the blue/green color of the blackburniana has shown through this week. I noticed it most today while outside. 

My little bismarckia has some nice purple and blue on it as well, though it outshines the Sabal haha.

 

[Dartolution]

Time for an update!

 

It's been growing steadily all winter. and broke through its pot (was already cracked). 

So, today I decided it was time to plant. 

 

For the last several weeks Ive been excavating a large hole in the yard, straight through red hard clay. 

I got down to about 4 feet, drilled holes in the side and stuffed them full of perlite and soil conditioner. 

The bottom foot is perlite and native clay, topped with about 6-8 inches of granite gravel drainage rock around 1-2" size. 

Then a mixture of fox farm ocean forest, native soil, Jungle growth soil, Coffee grounds and egg shells, gypsum, sand, perlite, pumice, and soil conditioner. 

The result is a loose sandy loamy soil. 

Hopefully that combined with the depth that was excavated, and having planted it mounded and about 5-6" above the excavated hole it will do well. 

 

Here is a picture of it shortly after planting and mulching over with cypress mulch.

Thoughts?

 

[Brad Mondel]

Where did you order it from?

[RJ]

3 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

Where did you order it from?

Not sure on his part, but I think Phil has some. Itching to pull the trigger on one. Just too many palms in pots at the time.