Sabal blackburniana Inquiry

[Collectorpalms]

The San Antonio Botanical Garden has one that was labeled Blackburnia. It Burned back in 2010-11.  18-19 degrees in a rather protected area. Not as hardy as the others.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Dartolution]

@Collectorpalms like I said in the first post for the thread. The temperature data for "blackburniana" is all over the place. 

I've decided to leave it be where it is, without protection and see what happens. We have projected a low of 19 friday night. It certainly will be a good test. I image it may get as cold as 15.

 

[Fusca]

9 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

The San Antonio Botanical Garden has one that was labeled Blackburnia. It Burned back in 2010-11.  18-19 degrees in a rather protected area. Not as hardy as the others.

Ryan, is that the one next to the mexicana in front of the desert pavilion in that courtyard area?  That's the only Sabal that I remember seeing with small seeds and knew it wasn't palmetto.  No one who works there seems to know what it is.  There's only one plaque out there now that says "Sabal mexicana".

[Allen]

37 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

@Collectorpalms like I said in the first post for the thread. The temperature data for "blackburniana" is all over the place. 

I've decided to leave it be where it is, without protection and see what happens. We have projected a low of 19 friday night. It certainly will be a good test. I image it may get as cold as 15.

 

Wow just 2F from my temps.  I just ran the electrical to 7 palms a couple days ago and covered the mule for the 2nd time so far.  The other palms (Trachy) have lights but no covering yet except for 2 new palms.  I don't think the mule is going to be a problem keeping alive this year.  Just when it gets real big

[Collectorpalms]

10 hours ago, Fusca said:

Ryan, is that the one next to the mexicana in front of the desert pavilion in that courtyard area?  That's the only Sabal that I remember seeing with small seeds and knew it wasn't palmetto.  No one who works there seems to know what it is.  There's only one plaque out there now that says "Sabal mexicana".

It Was next to the one that was mexicana I think.  It had a few feet of clear trunk Before the boots started. It was on the outside with the mexicana closer to the desert pavilion. Because it (they) burned I wondered if it was really a causarium, but I could never get close enough to see the papery strips. 

[Zeeth]

On 12/22/2020 at 5:17 PM, Chris Chance said:

Quick update. I have lots of ripe seeds ready to harvest. 

Nice! Let me know if you want to trade for Sabal Lisa seeds. 

[Chris Chance]

7 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Nice! Let me know if you want to trade for Sabal Lisa seeds. 

Sweet! Sounds like a good deal. I'm probably just going to give most away but at the moment I'm in the hospital. My daughter was born today. Once I get home and settled I'll harvest and start cleaning. 

[Dartolution]

@Chris Chance Congratulations ! 

[Chris Chance]

1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

@Chris Chance Congratulations ! 

Thank you! 

[Jubaea_James760]

@Chris Chance, Congratulations man! 

[Zeeth]

20 hours ago, Chris Chance said:

Sweet! Sounds like a good deal. I'm probably just going to give most away but at the moment I'm in the hospital. My daughter was born today. Once I get home and settled I'll harvest and start cleaning. 

Congrats!

[Chris Chance]

3 hours ago, James760 said:

@Chris Chance, Congratulations man! 

 

54 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Congrats!

Thanks guys! Going to post another thread about it so I'm not hijacking this one lol.

[iamjv]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:59 PM, Collectorpalms said:

It Was next to the one that was mexicana I think.  It had a few feet of clear trunk Before the boots started. It was on the outside with the mexicana closer to the desert pavilion. Because it (they) burned I wondered if it was really a causarium, but I could never get close enough to see the papery strips. 

It's been years since I've been to the SABG but at one time, the palm you are describing was labeled Causarium...   and it had drastic canopy damage in that freeze.   So I believe it to be Causarium and not Blackburniana.

[tjwalters]

On 10/4/2020 at 10:27 PM, Dartolution said:

UPDATE!

It has been a few days shy of 7 months in the ground. 

First picture is shortly after planting on March 9th, and the last 3 are today. 

 

March 9th:

 

Today: 

 

If I'm not mistaken, that deep center split clearly visible on some of the leaves makes this S. minor, not S. palmetto (syn. S. blackburniana).  That said, the good news would be that it's much more likely to survive the winter.

[Dartolution]

I've wondered about the leaf split for a while now. I thought perhaps it was just immature leaves that were being produced. 

@Chris Chance Did your blackburniana ever have a prominent leaf split when younger like mine?

 

So far its seen 19F as the lowest and doesn't appear to be bothered. 

 

Also, Phil has the blackburniana's listed on his website. All of the juvenile 5 -15 gallon plants appear to have this leaf split as well.

Perhaps this is just a maturity thing?

Edited December 29, 2020 by Dartolution
spelling/added information

[tjwalters]

20 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

I've wondered about the leaf split for a while now. I thought perhaps it was just immature leaves that were being produced. 

@Chris Chance Did your blackburniana ever have a prominent leaf split when younger like mine?

 

So far its seen 19F as the lowest and doesn't appear to be bothered. 

 

Also, Phil has the blackburniana's listed on his website. All of the juvenile 5 -15 gallon plants appear to have this leaf split as well.

Perhaps this is just a maturity thing?

I don't think so.  I also noticed a lack of filaments between the leaflets (splits), which would also indicate S. minor.  S. palmetto should have plenty of filaments.

[Dartolution]

@tjwalters It has filaments, just not many, and half the time I pinch them off out of boredom lol!

Ill try to get a picture of them tomorrow perhaps, but there are definitely a few filaments on the leaflets. 

Actually if you look closely in some of the pictures you can make a few out.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Dartolution

[tjwalters]

Just now, Dartolution said:

@tjwalters It has filaments, just not many, and half the time I pinch them off out of boredom lol!

Ill try to get a picture of them tomorrow perhaps, but there is definitely are few filaments on the leaflets. 

S. minor will have a few.  S. palmetto will have many more.

[Chris Chance]

Here's mine 5 years ago. 

[tjwalters]

24 minutes ago, Chris Chance said:

Here's mine 5 years ago. 

This definitely looks like a different palm (not S. minor), with a lot of filaments, no visible central splits, and already developing a strong costa.   It also doesn't appear to have the nice blue color of S. minor in this photo or the more recent photo posted earlier.

[Chris Chance]

1 minute ago, tjwalters said:

This definitely looks like a different palm (not S. minor), with a lot of filaments, no visible central splits, and already developing a strong costa.   It also doesn't appear to have the nice blue color of S. minor in this photo or the more recent photo posted earlier.

It definitely has a blueish color to it but pictures just don't pick it up. I'm definitely not a Sabal expert but it looks different than some others.

[tjwalters]

14 minutes ago, Chris Chance said:

It definitely has a blueish color to it but pictures just don't pick it up. I'm definitely not a Sabal expert but it looks different than some others.

If this is the same plant as the one you posted on Dec 22 here, it's definitely not S. minor; however Dartolution's appears to be S. minor.

[Dartolution]

I suppose I should contact Phil then. 

[tjwalters]

19 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

I suppose I should contact Phil then. 

Compare to one of my S. minor palms, with the deep center split and sparse filaments.

[Dartolution]

@tjwalters I would agree that they look remarkably similar. I've reached out to Phil and included the images you see here to ask about verifying the identity of the palm. We will see what he says. 

Either way, if it is indeed S. minor, I still have enjoyed having it. 

[Allen]

2 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@tjwalters I would agree that they look remarkably similar. I've reached out to Phil and included the images you see here to ask about verifying the identity of the palm. We will see what he says. 

Either way, if it is indeed S. minor, I still have enjoyed having it. 

Phil sent me some minor (intentionally) about 4 years ago with a order of other palms.  Just fyi - the minor he sent me then are of the larger variety and took 0F with minor damage unprotected in 2018.  

[Dartolution]

Phil replied basically saying exactly what we've discussed here - that younger sabals are all but impossible to ID, and further stating that he had a hard time believing that his seed broker/sources would misidentify a fruiting palm of that size. Which I do agree with. However once potted and grown for many years, things can happen.

He offered to send a small bermudana but I declined as I don't think its necessary. 

Time will tell exactly what this one is. 

If it flowers in the spring that may be helpful in indicating what it is, and of course pictures will follow.

@Allen 0F is remarkable, and a temperature I have never experienced, nor do I want to! lol 

 

[tjwalters]

46 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

Phil replied basically saying exactly what we've discussed here - that younger sabals are all but impossible to ID, and further stating that he had a hard time believing that his seed broker/sources would misidentify a fruiting palm of that size. Which I do agree with. However once potted and grown for many years, things can happen.

He offered to send a small bermudana but I declined as I don't think its necessary. 

Time will tell exactly what this one is. 

If it flowers in the spring that may be helpful in indicating what it is, and of course pictures will follow.

@Allen 0F is remarkable, and a temperature I have never experienced, nor do I want to! lol 

 

I'm fairly certain yours is S. minor, and it may be nearing flowering age.  I don't know of any other Sabal species with the deep central split in the leaf, though I'm far from familiar with all the different species and agree that seedlings/juvenile Sabal palms can be difficult to differentiate.

[Jubaea_James760]

@Dartolution, If Phil's seed source is Kevin Weaver I have 2 of those Sabal Blackburniana as well.  Mine are smaller than yours though so it's kinda hard to compare. If there was no mix up or loss tags along the way I believe they still could turn out to be Sabal Blackburniana for you.

[Dartolution]

Such a peculiar elusive trail ... haha 

[tjwalters]

37 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

Such a peculiar elusive trail ... haha 

What is supposed to be unique about "Sabal blackburniana?"  Since it's just a synonym for S. palmetto, and doesn't really exist, is it supposed to have some particular traits that distinguish it from S. palmetto?

[Jubaea_James760]

I've only seen 1 in person & it's basically a bigger Sabal Palmetto in every way except in seed size (same as palmettos.) Not sure about the size of inflorescences? The leaves are massive! Reaching 6ft. across. Other people have described it as a Sabal Palmetto on steroids. The one I've seen grows really slow, probably due to it being in to much shade. 

[Fusca]

On 12/23/2020 at 11:34 AM, Fusca said:

On 12/23/2020 at 2:16 AM, Collectorpalms said:

The San Antonio Botanical Garden has one that was labeled Blackburnia. It Burned back in 2010-11.  18-19 degrees in a rather protected area. Not as hardy as the others.

Ryan, is that the one next to the mexicana in front of the desert pavilion in that courtyard area?  That's the only Sabal that I remember seeing with small seeds and knew it wasn't palmetto.  No one who works there seems to know what it is.  There's only one plaque out there now that says "Sabal mexicana".

I found a pic of the palm I was asking about here in the foreground with the thick trunk.  Two mexicanas behind it and the desert pavilion to the left.  Too tall to notice any papery ligules.  Like @iamjv  I thought this might be S. causiarum.

[Dartolution]

Here is an article from palmpedia that mentions blackburniana with a fairly large photo:

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/images/a/a9/189_pg16-17_DobbsWEB.pdf

Here is an article from Phil characterizing it somewhat:

https://www.junglemusic.net/palms/sabal-blackburniana.htm

Here is a bit from learn to grow:

http://www.learn2grow.com/plants/sabal-blackburniana/

Plant Delights lists blackburniana as a synonym for Bermudiana which I would disagree with:

https://www.plantdelights.com/blogs/articles/cold-hardy-palms-windmill-needle-palm-tree-weather

The NGA just about lists the same.

There are smatterings of dribble on various websites poking at characterizing it. None of which introduce anything new.

The summation of what I've been able to read in text, and online references basically state what @James760 did above.

Its a larger, wider version of Palmetto characterized by blue/green fronds that are up to 9 feet in width, beefy girthy trunk, and moderate growth rate.

Cold tolerance is absolutely completely undescribed - ranging anywhere from 8 or 9F to 32F depending on the source. 

So, its a big palmetto. yep. 

[tjwalters]

4 hours ago, Dartolution said:

Here is an article from palmpedia that mentions blackburniana with a fairly large photo:

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/images/a/a9/189_pg16-17_DobbsWEB.pdf

Here is an article from Phil characterizing it somewhat:

https://www.junglemusic.net/palms/sabal-blackburniana.htm

Here is a bit from learn to grow:

http://www.learn2grow.com/plants/sabal-blackburniana/

Plant Delights lists blackburniana as a synonym for Bermudiana which I would disagree with:

https://www.plantdelights.com/blogs/articles/cold-hardy-palms-windmill-needle-palm-tree-weather

The NGA just about lists the same.

There are smatterings of dribble on various websites poking at characterizing it. None of which introduce anything new.

The summation of what I've been able to read in text, and online references basically state what @James760 did above.

Its a larger, wider version of Palmetto characterized by blue/green fronds that are up to 9 feet in width, beefy girthy trunk, and moderate growth rate.

Cold tolerance is absolutely completely undescribed - ranging anywhere from 8 or 9F to 32F depending on the source. 

So, its a big palmetto. yep. 

 

Kew lists it as a synonym for S. palmetto.

[Dartolution]

Even though it is a synonym of palmetto, I find it interesting that @Chris Chance's blackburniana held its inflorescence so closely to its trunk/meristem. 

Doesn't Sabal palmetto hold its inflorescence at or beyond the length of its fronds?
 

 

[tjwalters]

3 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

Even though it is a synonym of palmetto, I find it interesting that @Chris Chance's blackburniana held its inflorescence so closely to its trunk/meristem. 

Doesn't Sabal palmetto hold its inflorescence at or beyond the length of its fronds?
 

 

I think it can vary somewhat.  I know my S. minor inflorescences vary quite a bit.  The Kew site does say "provisionally listed as a synonym."  Not sure what that means.  Maybe there's ongoing taxonomic work.

[iamjv]

On 12/30/2020 at 9:49 AM, Fusca said:

I found a pic of the palm I was asking about here in the foreground with the thick trunk.  Two mexicanas behind it and the desert pavilion to the left.  Too tall to notice any papery ligules.  Like @iamjv  I thought this might be S. causiarum.

Yes this is the palm that was previously listed as  S. Causiarum.

 

[Dartolution]

Here is an updated image from today. 
There is a slight amount of spotting likely from the deep freeze we had back in February, but otherwise it’s been pushing growth now that the heat has come in. 

[Collectorpalms]

On 12/30/2020 at 9:49 AM, Fusca said:

I found a pic of the palm I was asking about here in the foreground with the thick trunk.  Two mexicanas behind it and the desert pavilion to the left.  Too tall to notice any papery ligules.  Like @iamjv  I thought this might be S. causiarum.

I still remember the sign the listed this as Sabal blackburniana back in the 2000’s. If my computers never crashed I am sure I would have a picture of the sign. Nevertheless, that trunk is sweet. It is just not entirely leaf hardy for zone 8b. I can recall it from 20 years ago, it’s grown- lost its boots- but grown slowly. It’s trunk does remind me of the Causarium at Fairchild Gardens. Even those back in 2005 were too tall to notice anything but the trunk.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Collectorpalms