Spanish Moss Naturalized/Native Roberstons Mill Pond 10 miles east of Raleigh

[PalmsNC]

I  had heard a couple of years ago about Spanish moss growing out in the blackwater cypress creek in Wendell NC, only 10 miles from Raleigh. Originally I had assumed it was carried there by birds as the actual range of Spanish moss starts somewhere along the Neuse River in between Smithfield and Goldsboro, and birds are known to carry it inland. I finally got the chance to kayak out there and I found it, clumps of it. I only managed to grab 1 picture, there were smaller clumps in lower branches of the cypress trees as well! Some still green! It could only mean they reproduced rather than bird drop off! Thoughts? We really need updated maps on plant/animal ranges.

 

Heres the Swamp

 

Heres the Spanish moss

 

Park Info

http://www.wakegov.com/parks/robertsonmillpond/Pages/default.aspx

 

A lot of plants typically found in the NC coastal plain can be found here!

 

Location

https://goo.gl/maps/KcETzLcUg8PWnUP29

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

15 minutes ago, PalmsNC said:

I  had heard a couple of years ago about Spanish moss growing out in the blackwater cypress creek in Wendell NC, only 10 miles from Raleigh. Originally I had assumed it was carried there by birds as the actual range of Spanish moss starts somewhere along the Neuse River in between Smithfield and Goldsboro, and birds are known to carry it inland. I finally got the chance to kayak out there and I found it, clumps of it. I only managed to grab 1 picture, there were smaller clumps in lower branches of the cypress trees as well! Some still green! It could only mean they reproduced rather than bird drop off! Thoughts? We really need updated maps on plant/animal ranges.

 

Heres the Swamp

 

Heres the Spanish moss

 

Park Info

http://www.wakegov.com/parks/robertsonmillpond/Pages/default.aspx

 

A lot of plants typically found in the NC coastal plain can be found here!

 

Location

https://goo.gl/maps/KcETzLcUg8PWnUP29

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Nice find Very possible that bird dispersal would be the best idea concerning initial route of introduction/ range extention. As long as living pieces deposited remained undisturbed for a year or two, and aren't killed by a cold winter.. giving them good opportunity to settle in, put on some new growth, and flower/ set seed, no doubt that any dispersed seed would stand a good chance of establishing new colonies, especially on trees like Bald Cypress. You're side of the country is plenty humid..

When i lived in FL, i had Ball Moss ( Tillandsia recurvata ) seed itself in some of my potted Bursera and a couple cacti. If it wasn't for the move here to the desert, those seedling plants would have lived on.  No doubt in my mind Spanish Moss would do the same. 

Have wondered if something similar could occur in California, particularly near the coast where fog would help keep humidity levels ideal, or in trees lining streams where water runs year round and humidity levels would also stay higher.. Imagine both situations would help keep any seedlings from drying out thru the summer.  I mention this since many types of Tillandsia, inc. both Ball and Spanish Moss are grown in among people's orchid collections there and, from experience, know birds love to steal Spanish Moss for their nests. Couldn't keep the stuff  around for long because of that, lol.

As far as where to document your findings, for the moment, Inaturalist is the best resource.. While not perfect, ( ..Noticed they're getting a little better about removing inaccurate observations lately.. I wish they'd color code observations based on how recent / old they are though.. ) I frequently check over a lengthy list of things to see if data for X species in a given area, particularly near currently documented edges of a particular plant or animal's range has been updated..  E-bird is another good place.. for birds, however..

[PalmTreeDude]

Woah, that's far inland. I've noticed that in North Carolina, you start to find the coastal things growing inland. Spanish Moss, Sabal minor, etc. Nice find! 

[NC_Palms]

That Spanish Moss population in Wendell is most likely native. Scattered Spanish moss populations are infrequently found in the inner coastal plain and are almost always found growing by a water source. Spanish moss becomes more abundant when you reach the outer coastal plain in our state and it may grow on a variety of different sites.  

While Wendell is technically still apart of the coastal plain, many isolated populations of subtropical, coastal species are found in the piedmont. There are a few scattered Sabal minor populations near Charlotte and many mountainous species are found in isolated populations in the piedmont and coastal plain; for example, there is a park near Chapel Hill which is located in a cold enough microclimate for Pinus strobus and Tsuga Canadensis populations to occur. 

[PalmsNC]

I checked out Inaturalist as was suggested to me, turns out someone else has already made that observation, and over 2 years ago! The Spanish moss found 2 years ago here also seems to be in a different spot than where I found it! Meaning it could very well have dispersed some!

 

 

Heres the Spanish moss someone else observed 2 years ago here! There's a decent amount out here it seems! Like I said there was some more I wasn't able to get pictures of hanging in lower branches. This represents a solid 30-40  mile further inland than previous Spanish moss inland extent.

 

 

This is where generally it was thought the range of Spanish moss would start in inland NC. The next step is to fill in the range in that 30-40 mile area between here and the start of it to see if its more than an isolated pocket, which I suspect It isn't.

https://goo.gl/maps/5KhuHzob8t4Gf4Jt7

 

 

[PalmsNC]

7 minutes ago, NC_Palms said:

That Spanish Moss population in Wendell is most likely native. Scattered Spanish moss populations are infrequently found in the inner coastal plain and are almost always found growing by a water source. Spanish moss becomes more abundant when you reach the outer coastal plain in our state and it may grow on a variety of different sites.  

While Wendell is technically still apart of the coastal plain, many isolated populations of subtropical, coastal species are found in the piedmont. There are a few scattered Sabal minor populations near Charlotte and many mountainous species are found in isolated populations in the piedmont and coastal plain; for example, there is a park near Chapel Hill which is located in a cold enough microclimate for Pinus strobus and Tsuga Canadensis populations to occur.  

Yeah, I know the park you are talking about in Chapel Hill.  I'd be interested in the sabal minor near charlotte though, I once heard before much of the eastern third of the state was deforested its range was into Harnett county NC which would represent 1 county further north than today, and just south of Raleigh.

You are certainly correct that any Spanish moss here will be found by a water source.  Although once you reach places like Washington, New Bern, Beaufort it can be found everywhere. I think the reason for that is moisture, ultimately the biggest limitation in the Inland south for Spanish moss is moisture content of the air, it does best in humid environments and worst in dry ones.  Obviously as well as you get into the inland upper south of NC and VA cold becomes an issue as well.

 

Wendell is along the fall line as is Raleigh. The transition from piedmont to the coastal plain.

[Chester B]

19 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Have wondered if something similar could occur in California, particularly near the coast where fog would help keep humidity levels ideal, or in trees lining streams where water runs year round and humidity levels would also stay higher.. Imagine both situations would help keep any seedlings from drying out thru the summer.  I mention this since many types of Tillandsia, inc. both Ball and Spanish Moss are grown in among people's orchid collections there and, from experience, know birds love to steal Spanish Moss for their nests. Couldn't keep the stuff  around for long because of that, lol.

Out in the wet areas we have our own version of Spanish moss on the west coast.  Old man's beard which are types of lichens, they can look similar but only grow in areas with a lot of moisture.

[PalmsNC]

13 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Out in the wet areas we have our own version of Spanish moss on the west coast.  Old man's beard which are types of lichens, they can look similar but only grow in areas with a lot of moisture.

What makes Spanish moss neat is that it is a Bromeliad, a tropical/subtropical family of plants, only the eastern us has any native bromeliads. Although one spot in Arizona does as well, wonder what that is!

 

[Silas_Sancona]

15 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Out in the wet areas we have our own version of Spanish moss on the west coast.  Old man's beard which are types of lichens, they can look similar but only grow in areas with a lot of moisture.

Used to collect the stuff thinking it was Spanish Moss, lol. Found out ( the hard way ) immature Ticks like to hang out in it. Would be ironic if Spanish Moss itself spread into the Redwood forests / Forests up there in Oregon and Washington.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, PalmsNC said:

What makes Spanish moss neat is that it is a Bromeliad, a tropical/subtropical family of plants, only the eastern us has any native bromeliads. Although one spot in Arizona does as well, wonder what that is!

 

Ball Moss, T. recurvata. is the species we have here.. in S. AZ.  Also grows in the Fog deserts / sub tropical, TDF regions of Baja, and in parts of mainland Sonora on south.. Weird seeing pics of it hanging from Saguaro and various other Cacti there.

[Austinpalm]

On 12/25/2019 at 12:36 PM, PalmsNC said:

What makes Spanish moss neat is that it is a Bromeliad, a tropical/subtropical family of plants, only the eastern us has any native bromeliads. Although one spot in Arizona does as well, wonder what that is!

 

Interesting map but slightly off in Texas.  Both T. recurvata and usenoides overlap in Central Texas and possibly a little farther west.  Additionally, there are 2 more bromeliad species (Hechtia glomerata and texensis) not shown out west and down south.  On a side note, I have had T. baileyi and T. bartramii for the last 10 years in Austin.  Both flower, but I have yet to find any new clumps.  Have tried others but squirrels are a constant problem in regard to keeping these in the yard. Even Spanish moss clumps can disappear when the squirrels and birds are working on nests.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Austinpalm

[NC_Palms]

On 12/25/2019 at 12:12 PM, PalmsNC said:

Yeah, I know the park you are talking about in Chapel Hill.  I'd be interested in the sabal minor near charlotte though, I once heard before much of the eastern third of the state was deforested its range was into Harnett county NC which would represent 1 county further north than today, and just south of Raleigh.

You are certainly correct that any Spanish moss here will be found by a water source.  Although once you reach places like Washington, New Bern, Beaufort it can be found everywhere. I think the reason for that is moisture, ultimately the biggest limitation in the Inland south for Spanish moss is moisture content of the air, it does best in humid environments and worst in dry ones.  Obviously as well as you get into the inland upper south of NC and VA cold becomes an issue as well.

 

Wendell is along the fall line as is Raleigh. The transition from piedmont to the coastal plain.

This is the thread about the Sabal minor population near Charlotte.  I would not be surprised if Sabal minor was once native as far west as the eastern portion of Wake County. Maybe after I finish my Sabal palmetto research on the coast, I will look into the Sabal minor extirpation of the inner coastal plain and piedmont.

 

[PalmsNC]

Big news yall! Yesterday I was at the Mitchell Mill State Natural Area, which is home to a section of the east coasts largest batholith! This area made for a great spot to do some outdoor workouts and get creative. It also makes for some unique and rare habitats like dwarf forest! Anyhow I find a nice tree to do pull ups on, lo and behold as i look up it is loaded with spanish moss.... I was stunned,  a totally unexpected discovery! WOW! This place is in Wake county just like Robertsons millpond is, it is also on a different river system than roberstons millpond.  Roberstons is on the buffalo creek while mitchell mill is on the little river. Mitchel Mill is also North east of roberstons millpond! This discovery means that roberstons millpond likely represents more of an inland western extent than the sole outcropping ! That tree was the most loaded I have ever seen! Pictures don't do it justice, definitely going to do some more exploring for more!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Austinpalm]

I could be wrong, but I believe that is a type of Lichen (Usnea sp.), not Spanish moss.  I have seen something very similar to that in many places around here.  I sometime have to do a double-take to be certain.

[PalmsNC]

1 minute ago, Austinpalm said:

I could be wrong, but I believe that is a type of Lichen (Usnea sp.), not Spanish moss.  I have seen something very similar to that in many places around here.  I sometime have to do a double-take to be certain.

You could be right, that area has lots of lichen! I was also hesitant at first but decided to post here so I could get more eyes

[Brad Mondel]

That is a Lichen.

[Butch]

Not to derail the post, but when I was doing basic training for the US Army, while stationed in FT. Ord, Monterey CA.... Some one started a rumor that this moss/lichen growing on the scrub oaks on post, would get you high, if you smoked it... The next day, half the company was in the infirmary sick  .... Remember, this was in 1968... A bunch of 18yr olds, the 1st time away from home, on lockdown because of meningitis, and no access to alcohol..... No excuse... these guys were just idiots.... Sorry about the hijack.. This post just brought up an old memory..

Butch

[Silas_Sancona]

54 minutes ago, Butch said:

Not to derail the post, but when I was doing basic training for the US Army, while stationed in FT. Ord, Monterey CA.... Some one started a rumor that this moss/lichen growing on the scrub oaks on post, would get you high, if you smoked it... The next day, half the company was in the infirmary sick  .... Remember, this was in 1968... A bunch of 18yr olds, the 1st time away from home, on lockdown because of meningitis, and no access to alcohol..... No excuse... these guys were just idiots.... Sorry about the hijack.. This post just brought up an old memory..

Butch

Funny you mention this because when in / after graduating High School, i knew a few people that lived up in the Santa Cruz Mountains who'd thought the same thing.. Have also heard you could eat the stuff, or some other types of locally common Lichens. Like wild Mushrooms, not something i'd be compelled to try though lol..